Doubts about Hell, suffering. Please Help!

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Philthy, I call them as I see them. If you don’t wish to burdened with a third party’s opinion, don’t conduct a conversation in public.
 
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eptatorata:
You just reinforced SamCA’s point…
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How so? Sam is suggesting that there is no true free choice since no one would choose a sinful life and suffer damnation willingly. Well, if you look towards society, there are obviously those who do exactly that. So, there is a choice made by individuals else society, by enlarge, would not be as immoral as it currently is. I know it is hard to believe, yet many are using their free choice to willingly sin against God. I don’t understand it either.
God bless.
 
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clarkal:
Philthy,

Your attempt at sarcasm was poor, insensitive, and extremely insulting.

I can only shake my head at such comments.

clarkal
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I’m sorry - I think I will just keep my mouth shut for a bit. I, too, was offended at your characterization of Catholic belief and reacted defensively. The Jesus Christ I know does not love me one bit more than you or anyone else. Again, I’m sorry.

Phil
 
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AnAtheist:
Yes, but E*t > h (uncertainty principle, h being the Planck constant, may have forgotten a 2pi somewhere, but that doesn’t matter for this argument), so if t (time) is near zero, the energy uncertainty can be anything.
So, in a space-time singularity the energy uncertainty can produce any amount of matter, a universe like this one e.g.
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Have you experimentally verified this yourself or do you accept the testimony of others - ie you take it on faith?

I apologize, in advance, if I have offended by this remark.

Philthy
 
I don’t want anyone gonig to hell. But I don’t think it’s fair for a person who sins, even to the extreme like murder or rape, gets forgiven and gets into heaven, and for a person who barely sins and goes to confession like every week or so, and gets the same reward “heaven”. We all might as well just sin!!!:mad: . I don’t think thats very fair, or is thats why there’s Purgatory? And what is Purgatory like? somewhere along the lines of hell?
 
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eptatorata:
There’s nothing wrong with having an idea of how one wants the world to be and concocting a matching theory to fit the facts.
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Yes there is when you do so under the false claim of the “scientific method” which, if I’m not mistaken, is JohnDurans point. How you want the world to be has nothing to do with science. Once you have adopted a view which is unsubstantiated by scientific observation you no longer can lay claim to the objectivity which is at the root of scientific investigation - you have become subjective.

The reversal of spirit doesn’t come into play until fact is made to fit the theory or a theory isn’t abandoned despite a lack of explanatory or predictive power compared to other theories.

I agree that those are examples of spirit reversal, but so is clinging to a belief simply because you desire it to be true. I believe that is the accusation that JohnDuran is making.

Truly,

Philthy
 
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oriel36:
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Mijoy2:
Is it a fair deal that I have a severe difficulty in expressing matters while you may have a great way of expression but see these matters in hazy outlines that you know somehow make sense but have yet to become more familiar with the exquisite thinking of the authors of Genesis.

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If what you are saying is that I have a grip on the Faith, but you have a deeper understanding, I ask you to help me along. I’m sure you know how to private message.

I Thank you all. I wish to be further enlightened.
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AnAtheist:
If someone bears the name of Allah on his chest, that is… coincidence, a fraud, nuts,…?
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no, that is a tattoo, or maybe some marker or somthing…😉
 
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Philthy:
Have you experimentally verified this yourself or do you accept the testimony of others - ie you take it on faith?
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Yes, I have done several experiments myself or participated at some (e.g. at DESY’s ZEUS detector desy.de/html/home/fastnavigator.html). But of course, I have accepted a lot of “testimonies” of other people to learn the necessary background. In theory everyone can reproduce those testimonies.

You perform a related experiment everyday. The principle behind a laser is pure quantum physics. If quantum physics were not true, the CD or DVD drive in your computer won’t work.
I apologize, in advance, if I have offended by this remark.
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Not necessary, it is a valid question.
 
†ChristPaladin†:
I don’t want anyone gonig to hell. But I don’t think it’s fair for a person who sins, even to the extreme like murder or rape, gets forgiven and gets into heaven, and for a person who barely sins and goes to confession like every week or so, and gets the same reward “heaven”. We all might as well just sin!!!:mad: . I don’t think thats very fair, or is thats why there’s Purgatory? And what is Purgatory like? somewhere along the lines of hell?
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Well, if there was a LOVING and JUST God, then purgatory is a logical solution of that dilemma you stated. The protestant view of Hell otoh, is completely illogical.
 
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AnAtheist:
Yes, I have done several experiments myself or participated at some (e.g. at DESY’s ZEUS detector desy.de/html/home/fastnavigator.html). But of course, I have accepted a lot of “testimonies” of other people to learn the necessary background. In theory everyone can reproduce those testimonies.

You perform a related experiment everyday. The principle behind a laser is pure quantum physics. If quantum physics were not true, the CD or DVD drive in your computer won’t work.

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What pragmatic Catholics will see is that your relativistic/qm goobledegook is big business.

Go ahead and explain to people why quantum physics is necessary for cds and dvd’s,this should be interesting !.
 
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Philthy:
I’m sorry - I think I will just keep my mouth shut for a bit. I, too, was offended at your characterization of Catholic belief and reacted defensively. The Jesus Christ I know does not love me one bit more than you or anyone else. Again, I’m sorry.

Phil
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Ah.

No problem. I understand your reaction, and I also apologize. I didn’t mean to ruffle any feathers, but I should’ve known better.

best,

clarkal
 
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eptatorata:
I’m curious why John Doran doesn’t quiz the theists on their epistemology…
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i’m not sure what you’re getting at here…
 
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AnAtheist:
And what if the cause is periodic? Then it could be eternal and cause finite effects.
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i’m not sure i understand; are you suggesting that the eternally present conditions could cause an effect, and then cause a different effect again at some later date, and so on? if so, then that doesn’t actually work, since, during the period before the subsequent effects came into existence, the conditions couldn’t have been necessary and sufficient, since, if they were, then the effect would also have existed.

the only way to motivate your suggestion would be if the conditions themselves only became sufficient and/or necessary at some point in time. but then, what would cause that change in the conditions? and was that cause eternally present? if so, then the change would have been eternal, also. if not, then what caused it?

and so on…
 
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eptatorata:
You miss the point. You already know absolutely everything there is to know about the child, from birth to death. You can also change any event or any thought the child will ever have at a whim. In other words, you have complete foreknowledge and complete control over the child’s life experience, whether you exercise the control or not.

Why would you punish the child for anything?
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because the child, by definition, freely chose to do the wrong thing.

unless the point of your example is that god’s universal causal power entails determinism, in which case it seems to make no sense to punish someone for something they were incapable of not doing…

in which case, i agree: why punish them?

i just don’t agree that determinism is entailed by divine causal efficacy.
 
john doran:
i’m not sure i understand; are you suggesting that the eternally present conditions could cause an effect, and then cause a different effect again at some later date, and so on? if so, then that doesn’t actually work, since, during the period before the subsequent effects came into existence, the conditions couldn’t have been necessary and sufficient, since, if they were, then the effect would also have existed.

the only way to motivate your suggestion would be if the conditions themselves only became sufficient and/or necessary at some point in time. but then, what would cause that change in the conditions? and was that cause eternally present? if so, then the change would have been eternal, also. if not, then what caused it?

and so on…
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It is fine to be a pretensious idiot,what is not o.k. is to call yourself a Christian while you are doing it.

I have seen the old Christnet forum burn to the ground because pseudo-Christians like you ended on the wrong side of an argument with these empirical freaks nothwithstanding that they are the dumbest people ever to set foot on the planet.

The atheist guy is fine by his isolated stupidity but would you tell Christians that you both believe in the same empirical tradition rathe than have them believe you are on opposite sides.
 
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AnAtheist:
No argument from me. I mean, in a decade or two (or a hundred) we will know about those early stages of the universe, we do not know about yet.

Bah, it took 350 years to find a proof for Fermat’s Theorem. The early universe’s cosmology is analysed for only 50 years now, give it a decade or two…
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out of curiosity, how do you think we will we know? how will we know? facts about that period of the life of the universe are, after all, emprically unverifiable…
 
john doran:
because the child, by definition, freely chose to do the wrong thing.

unless the point of your example is that god’s universal causal power entails determinism, in which case it seems to make no sense to punish someone for something they were incapable of not doing…

in which case, i agree: why punish them?

i just don’t agree that determinism is entailed by divine causal efficacy.
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I have made no claim about determinism.
 
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