Doug Batchelor: His Catholic Church Attacks

[djconklin]

PM: It is indeed difficult to discuss things when SDAs post volumes of different topic information in one post.

And when have I done that?​

HC: In her own letters she claims to have eaten meat and unclean meat after her address to believers about her vision.

Did she ever claim to be perfect right from the git-go?

“Sister White has not had meat in her house or cooked it in any line, or any dead flesh, for years and years. And here is the [basis of some people’s] health reform: ‘Now I have told you Sister White did not eat meat. Now I want you not to eat meat, because Sister White does not eat it.’ Well, I would not give–I would not care a farthing for anything like that. If you have not got any better conviction–you won’t eat meat because Sister White does not eat any–if I am the authority, I would not give a farthing for your health reform. What I want is that every one of you should stand in your individual dignity before God, in your individual consecration to God, that the soul-temple shall be dedicated to God. ‘Whosoever defileth the temple of God, him will God destroy.’ Now I want you to think of these things, and do not make any human being your criterion.” {MR852, pgs. 3-4}

 

[happilycatholic]

The word “instituted” is hers. As are “after the fall of man” which I didn’t put in quotes. You also ignored her other remarks on the same issue. Just as Bible texts can be pitted against each other when they are NOT read as a harmonious whole, so the same with EGW and any other writer.

Here is the quote:

EGW: YES “The kingdom of grace was instituted immediately after the fall of man, when a plan was devised for the redemption of the guilty race” (Great Controversy, p. 347).

Here is the definition of istitute: To set up; to establish; to ordain; as, to institute laws, rules, etc. 2. To originate and establish; to found; to organize.

Also, let’s recognize that Ellen says “when a plan was devised…” This means at the same time as a plan was devised. So if we read Ellen’s quote to mean exactly how your site quoted it, it says:

The Kingdom of grace was instituted (set up, established, ordained, originated, founded, organized) at the same time the plan for redemption was devised, which was AFTER THE FALL OF MAN.

You could also break it down this way:

The kingdom of grace was instituted when a plan was devised for the redemption of the guilty race. And when was that? AFTER THE FALL OF MAN.

See, I don’t have to add anything or take away anything. It says what it says.

Maybe you should diagram the sentence.

She’s inconsistant. And wrong. And contridicts the Bible.

I can only find exact quotes. You made the claim–you have the burden of proof.​

Thank you Patrick for showing how claims are supposed to be made and it doesn’t say what we were told was said (what a surprise!).

 

[happilycatholic]

And when have I done that?​

Did she ever claim to be perfect right from the git-go?

“Sister White has not had meat in her house or cooked it in any line, or any dead flesh, for years and years. And here is the [basis of some people’s] health reform: ‘Now I have told you Sister White did not eat meat. Now I want you not to eat meat, because Sister White does not eat it.’ Well, I would not give–I would not care a farthing for anything like that. If you have not got any better conviction–you won’t eat meat because Sister White does not eat any–if I am the authority, I would not give a farthing for your health reform. What I want is that every one of you should stand in your individual dignity before God, in your individual consecration to God, that the soul-temple shall be dedicated to God. ‘Whosoever defileth the temple of God, him will God destroy.’ Now I want you to think of these things, and do not make any human being your criterion.” {MR852, pgs. 3-4}

Yes I see. She very explicitly tells them that she doesn’t eat meat but tells them not to rely on her to tell them not to. But then goes on to say if they do they’ll be defiling the temple dedicated to God. Think of how you are defiling your temple, don’t think of what I’ve told you – even though I’ve told you you’re defiling God’s temple. Hmm, great way to passively manipulate someone isn’t it?

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**But again, where is this in the Bible. Where in the Bible does it say we’re defiling our temple by eating meat? Even if she wasn’t telling them not to, merely insinuating that is bad. Why would you tell people something like that? **

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[djconklin]

great way to passively manipulate someone isn’t it?

If you have a quilty conscience. I didn’t, so I wasn’t maniuplated.

Where in the Bible does it say we’re defiling our temple by eating meat?

The Bible clearly indicates what the unclean meats are. Modern science confirms that eating too much red meat isn’t healthful. And we now know that eating red meat contributes to global warming. Also Paul explicitly states that your body is the Temple of the Holy Ghost and jesus siad that we are to love God with all our heart, mind and strength. Therefore, one is to maintain your mind and body as best you can.

 

[BibleTruth]

Tomorrow I will address the sabbath/sunday issue again. I do feel that I owe DJ and Andrew a bit more explanation than just stating that I no longer observe Saturday.

Hey Patrick,

Please don’t feel compelled to give me an explanation (although I must say I’m curious).

Just remember what it says in Hebrews 4:12-13 (NLT): “For the word of God is alive and powerful. It is sharper than the sharpest two-edged sword, cutting between soul and spirit, between joint and marrow. It exposes our innermost thoughts and desires. Nothing in all creation is hidden from God. Everything is naked and exposed before his eyes, and he is the one to whom we are accountable.”

I urge you to take note of the preceding verses in Hebrews 4:9-11 (NLT), where we have a clear New Testament reference of the call to continue to keep the seventh-day Sabbath: “So there is a special rest [Greek, “*sabbatismos”] still waiting for the people of God. For all who have entered into God’s rest have rested from their labors, just as God did after creating the world. So let us do our best to enter that rest. But if we disobey God, as the people of Israel did, we will fall”.

Say/think/believe what you want…God’s word is clear on this topic.

Andrew

 

[andrea3710]

While others discuss E.White I will bring out again issue of Mary.

There are many who say that she is blessed and that she should be observed as such and should be given certain praises and be prayed to,in the next text Jesus had a perfect opportunity to tell us or show us in any way that in the future or in His times too Mary should be praised and be given so much attention.
Luke 11;27-28 And it happened as He spoke these things that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, Blessed is the womb that bore You,and the breasts which nursed you! ( we do not read here that He said,yes blessed it be or anything like that)
But He said, more than that,blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!

Second,Bible clearly tells us that Mary and Joseph lived as husband and wife and had marital relations after she bore Jesus. So she was not virgin forever.

Matthew 1:24,25 Then Joseph,being aroused from sleep,did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife and DID NOT KNOW HER TILL she brought forth her firstborn Son. And called His name Jesus.

From what I read here it tells me that Jesus had brothers and sisters…
Matthew 13:55-56 "Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? 56 “And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this man get all these things?” 57 And they took offense at Him. But Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his home town, and in his own household.”

Mark 6:3 “Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?” And they took offense at Him. 4 And Jesus said to them,​

“A prophet is not without honor except in his home town and among his own relatives and in his own household.”

The Catholic Catechism says of these verses: “The Church has always understood these passages as not referring to other children of the Virgin Mary. In fact James and Joseph, ‘brothers of Jesus,’ are the sons of another Mary, a disciple of Christ…” Pg. 126 #500).

 

[djconklin]

Here’s a good one:

In working on my ebook about the plagiarism claim I came across critic who accuses EGW of plagiarism and the critic plagiarized! This is the second instance, that I have seen this.​

If the critic’s case is so right and true, why do they have to lie and cheat so often? I have a list of over 30 bogus claims made against EGW alone! Any ideas?

 

[andrea3710]

Happy Sabbath to them who keep the faith of Jesus and keep the commandments of God and…talk to you soon,the Sabbath soon begins in my country so I got to go

 

[happilycatholic]

Hey Patrick,

Please don’t feel compelled to give me an explanation (although I must say I’m curious).

Just remember what it says in Hebrews 4:12-13 (NLT): “For the word of God is alive and powerful. It is sharper than the sharpest two-edged sword, cutting between soul and spirit, between joint and marrow. It exposes our innermost thoughts and desires. Nothing in all creation is hidden from God. Everything is naked and exposed before his eyes, and he is the one to whom we are accountable.”

I urge you to take note of the preceding verses in Hebrews 4:9-11 (NLT), where we have a clear New Testament reference of the call to continue to keep the seventh-day Sabbath: "So there is a special rest [Greek, "*sabbatismos

“] still waiting for the people of God. For all who have entered into God’s rest have rested from their labors, just as God did after creating the world. So let us do our best to enter that rest. But if we disobey God, as the people of Israel did, we will fall”.

Say/think/believe what you want…God’s word is clear on this topic.

Andrew

Hi Andrew!

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Be easy on me now, I’m no Bible scholar. When I read the whole of Hebrews in its context, I glean that they are being told that Christ is their Sabbath rest.

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Hebrews is clearly speaking of the Christian Sabbath (rest), that which occurs in Christ. Otherwise the prelude to thier letter would not have explained Christ’s rank in Heaven and what Christ was to them (rest). It would’ve reitterated the Jewish Sabbath and not rest in Christ.

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Because the seventh day and Sabbath are mentioned therein doesn’t mean it is the subject of the message. Christ is obviously the subject of this message hence the preface in the letter (addressed previously) and the closing both mention Christ:

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13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepard of the sheep, through the blood of the ever lasting covenant.

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Don’t you believe that if the Sabbath was our ever lasting covenant with God, it would’ve been mentioned here instead? This line is the message of the letter.

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HC

 

[RichardnCO]

Hi Catholics,

There is a guy I saw on the BET network. His name is Doug Batchelor, president of his show called Amazing Facts. In his show he preaches the bible using an 80 inch screen television. He has made me upset. If there are Catholics right now reading this, please give your feedback. I’ve watched other religious channels before but they never criticized other religions. This show brutally criticized the Catholic Church.

Let’s begin on what Mr. Batchelor preached:

Catholic Church Attack #1

Mr. Batchelor said he read the book Crossing the Threshold of Hope written by his Holiness John Paul II. In the book it says:"Confronted with the Pope, one must make a choice. The leader of the Catholic Church is defined by the faith as the Vicar of Jesus Christ (and is accepted as such by believers), The Pope is considered the man on the earth who represents the Son of God, who ‘takes the place’ of the second person of the omnipotent God of the Trinity. page 3

Mr. Batchelor stated this is blasphemy. He states “The Bible states that God is Holy, Holy and reverened is His Name.” He argued that the Pope is man and since he is man he is human. Human falls short in the Glory of God. He said that the pope shouldn’t even consider himself the 2nd of the trinity…

Catholic Church Attack #2

Mr Batchelor stated “Where in the Bible states that Sunday is the holy day of obligation?” He said “A long time ago Saturday was the holy day of obligation, it was a Catholic Tradition. Constantine wanted to satisfy the Romans so he made Sunday the holy day of obligation for the Romans because that day was assigned as the Sun God.” He continued saying that because of this the Catholic Church had two days of obligation. One day was Saturday which was Catholic Tradition to be the holy day of obligation. The 2nd day which was Sunday was made to make the Romans happy. So for many years we had 2 days of obligation and soon, Catholics broke away from tradition and assigned Sunday as the holy day of obligation. Mr. Batchelor said “Check this out, this is why Catholic Tradition falls short and that is why there is no scripture to back this up.”

Catholic Church Attack #3
Mr. Batchelor said that the Catholic Church was brutal in persecuting non-believers or didn’t believe in the Catholic way. If someone was caught preaching against the Church they would capture him, tie hiim up and let him dehydrate. So once the unbeliever became thirsty they would crack glass in a small towel and soak it in water and let him swallow it so that the glass will cut off his vocal cords so he can’t preach heresy. He continued saying that the Catholic Church would bury women alive who were unbelievers and execute children right in front of the parents face. He said it was a total of 50-70 million people executed. He quoted this on Popes V2, p.334

As a Protestant, all I can say is “The Christian Right is Neither”. Not all Protestants are anti-catholic. I never once heard of a bad word being spoken about Catholics in the church I was brought up in. Mr. Batchelor seems way out of line.

 

[djconklin]

As a Protestant, all I can say is “The Christian Right is Neither”. Not all Protestants are anti-catholic. I never once heard of a bad word being spoken about Catholics in the church I was brought up in. Mr. Batchelor seems way out of line.

Have you confirmed that Doug Batchelor actually said the things that are attributed to him?

 

[RichardnCO]

Have you confirmed that Doug Batchelor actually said the things that are attributed to him?

No. I was just replying to the post. I guess I should retract that comment but all my other statements about the Christian Right stand. And that is from experience.

 

[djconklin]

No. I was just replying to the post. I guess I should retract that comment but all my other statements about the Christian Right stand. And that is from experience.

I agree with your sentiment ab’t “Christian Right”–I’ve learned that if I’m going to assume anything, then when people claim that they are “Right” or “Moral” assume that they aren’t.

I’ve emailed Doug Batchelor to find out if he actually said those things and haven’t heard back from him. Some of the remarks seemed to run directly counter to what I have heard him say about the Catholic Church.

 

[BibleTruth]

Hebrews is clearly speaking of the Christian Sabbath (rest), that which occurs in Christ.

Hello HC,

One thing to realize is that there’s no “Christian Sabbath” or a “Jewish Sabbath”. There is one Sabbath and that’s the one that was instituted when the world was created. It’s a covenant sign between us and God to show that He sanctifies us (Exodus 31:13, Ezekiel 20:12, 20). Exodus 31:16-17 reiterates its permanent nature.

The problem many have is in trying to suggest that the Sabbath was “made for the Jews” where as Jesus, Himself, stated in Mark 2:27 that it was made for man, meaning mankind (Greek, “anthrōpos”). The Bible states that there is no longer Jew nor Gentile and that we are all children of God through faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:29-30, Galatians 3:26).

Through careful study of the Bible, you can see that Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of the Israelite experience and through our faith in Him, we are ALL spiritual Israelites…and yes, that means Catholics, too. None of the New Testament writers speak of the abolishing of the the seventh-day Sabbath. Their silence on the matter indicates that it was to be maintained. Luke (a Gentile) had every opportunity to speak about a change when writing his gospel and the book of Acts, but again, not a word was mentioned of it being changed or done away with.

I’m sure you’re sincere in your beliefs but being sincere doesn’t make anything right; in fact, we can sometimes be sincerely wrong. We are all spiritual Israelites (Abraham’s seed) and are subject to God’s authority. Our love for Him should make us want to be obedient to Him…not look for ways to circumvent His laws. It just would not make sense for the one commandment that begins with the word “remember” would be the one that would eventually be omitted.

There’s simply no biblical justification for the doing away of the seventh-day Sabbath and I praise God for that. It’s the one day of the week I look forward to more than any other.

For all who believe the truth in God’s word…Happy Sabbath!

Andrew

 

[djconklin]

I was always taught that our physical rest on God’s Sabbath is a sign that we are resting spiritually in Him as well.

 

[happilycatholic]

Hello HC,

One thing to realize is that there’s no “Christian Sabbath” or a “Jewish Sabbath”. There is one Sabbath and that’s the one that was instituted when the world was created. It’s a covenant sign between us and God to show that He sanctifies us (Exodus 31:13, Ezekiel 20:12, 20). Exodus 31:16-17 reiterates its permanent nature.

The problem many have is in trying to suggest that the Sabbath was “made for the Jews” where as Jesus, Himself, stated in Mark 2:27 that it was made for man, meaning mankind (Greek, “anthrōpos”). The Bible states that there is no longer Jew nor Gentile and that we are all children of God through faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:29-30, Galatians 3:26).

Through careful study of the Bible, you can see that Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of the Israelite experience and through our faith in Him, we are ALL spiritual Israelites…and yes, that means Catholics, too. None of the New Testament writers speak of the abolishing of the the seventh-day Sabbath. Their silence on the matter indicates that it was to be maintained. Luke (a Gentile) had every opportunity to speak about a change when writing his gospel and the book of Acts, but again, not a word was mentioned of it being changed or done away with.

I’m sure you’re sincere in your beliefs but being sincere doesn’t make anything right; in fact, we can sometimes be sincerely wrong. We are all spiritual Israelites (Abraham’s seed) and are subject to God’s authority. Our love for Him should make us want to be obedient to Him…not look for ways to circumvent His laws. It just would not make sense for the one commandment that begins with the word “remember” would be the one that would eventually be omitted.

There’s simply no biblical justification for the doing away of the seventh-day Sabbath and I praise God for that. It’s the one day of the week I look forward to more than any other.

For all who believe the truth in God’s word…Happy Sabbath!

Andrew

Then can you tell me what was meant by: “the blood of the everlasting covenant”? Who or what was the everlasting covenant, the Sabbath or Christ? Or are there two everlasting covenants God mad with us?

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HC

 

[emarc]

pharisees strongly rebuked Jesus because he was healing, teaching, and doing other works on the sabbath. but Jesus told them sabbath is made for man, not man for the sabbath. Jesus knew his death was forthcoming, but knew also he’d be raised on the Lord’s day. he knew his disciples would honor the Lord’s day, the resurrection day and they did because they were worshiping and breaking bread on the Lord’s day. the sabbath was part of God’s covenant with his people, the jews; but when Jesus died on the Cross, he became God’s covenant for the believers. Jesus himself said so. “Behold the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: (heb 8:8) When he speaks of a new covenant, he declares the first one obsolete.and what has become obsolete and has grown old is close to disappearing.” (heb 8:13)… if the 7DA wish to follow the jews’ obedience to worship in the sabbath, nothing wrong w/ it but i see hypocrisy by them for not following the rest of jews’ laws.
God bless.

 

[djconklin]

Who or what was the everlasting covenant, the Sabbath or Christ?

The covenant is always between God and us based on the shed blood of His Son, Jesus Christ. The Sabbath is the seal of God and our keeping it holy as He commanded is a sign that we accept that it is He who sanctifies us and not we ourselves.

 

[BibleTruth]

Then can you tell me what was meant by: “the blood of the everlasting covenant”? Who or what was the everlasting covenant, the Sabbath or Christ? Or are there two everlasting covenants God mad with us?

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HC

So much could be said but my time is limited so this will be an abbreviated response…

Jesus is the New Covenant between God and man. The problem with the Old Covenant wasn’t the covenant…it was the Israelite’s failure to adhere to its standards (Ezekiel 20:13). Accepting and honoring the Sabbath is a sign that we truly accept God’s covenant.

As you read through the Bible, you can see clearly that only those who lovingly keep God’s commandments will be the ones who make it into His kingdom. The only way for us to fully keep God’s commandments is by allowing Jesus to work within us through the power of the Holy Spirit; we cannot do it ourselves. Jesus, alone, gives us the power but we have to be willing to receive it.

If we think that we can make up the rules as we go along, we’re no different than Cain who thought God would accept the sacrifice that he wanted to offer…not what God required. Romans 12:1-2 calls for us to be living and holy sacrifices. We can never be holy if we’re breaking God’s law.

Andrew

 

[djconklin]

pharisees strongly rebuked Jesus because he was healing, teaching, and doing other works on the sabbath. but Jesus told them sabbath is made for man, not man for the sabbath. Jesus knew his death was forthcoming, but knew also he’d be raised on the Lord’s day. he knew his disciples would honor the Lord’s day, the resurrection day and they did because they were worshiping and breaking bread on the Lord’s day. the sabbath was part of God’s covenant with his people, the jews; but when Jesus died on the Cross, he became God’s covenant for the believers. Jesus himself said so. “Behold the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: (heb 8:8) When he speaks of a new covenant, he declares the first one obsolete.and what has become obsolete and has grown old is close to disappearing.” (heb 8:13)… if the 7DA wish to follow the jews’ obedience to worship in the sabbath, nothing wrong w/ it but i see hypocrisy by them for not following the rest of jews’ laws.God bless.

The Sabbath is God’s Sabbath, made at Creation long before there ever was a Jew. Note that Paul was still obeying some of the alleged “Jewish” laws regarding circumcision (Timothy) and the Nazarite laws (which in doing so got him arrested in Jerusalem). We should also note that when God said He was setting up a new covenant He explicitly stated that he would write His laws on our hearts:

Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Are they written on your heart?