Doug Batchelor: His Catholic Church Attacks

[djconklin]

I assume you are baptized so why do you not receive the Eucharist?

We do; about 4 times a year.

Were you baptized by immersion to have your sins washed away?

You’re right, the Apostles didn’t change it. God did by raising His Son on Sunday, sanctifying it and instituting the New Covenant.

Odd that God would change the day without telling anyone that He had done so.

Most Christians as late as the 5th century still kept the Sabbath.

“‘If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath and from doing as you please on my holy day, if you call the Sabbath a delight and the LORD’s holy day honorable, and if you honor it by not going your own way and not doing as you please or speaking idle words, then you will find your joy in the LORD, and I will cause you to ride on the heights of the land and to feast on the inheritance of your father Jacob.’ The mouth of the LORD has spoken” (Isaiah 58:13-14, NIV).

Old Testament. Old Covenant. Old Sign. Old Seal.

The last two are not only unbiblical they run contrary to what God Himself said:

Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Revelation 22:14 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

 

[BibleTruth]

You’re right, the Apostles didn’t change it. God did by raising His Son on Sunday, sanctifying it and instituting the New Covenant. What God changed was not the Sabbath, it was the sign and the seal He changed. You state that the Sabbath was the sign and the seal of our obedience to God. Well Christ is the sign and the seal of the New Covenant. Today, we express that in our baptism and the Eucharist. The Jews continue to express the sign and the seal of the Old Covenant by keeping (truly keeping I might add) the Sabbath.

Happily Catholic,

Sorry to disappoint you, but here is what the Catholic church, itself, says about the changing of the day from the seventh to the first:

"We Catholics do not accept the Bible as the only rule of faith. Besides the Bible, we have the living Church, as a rule to guide us. We say, this Church instituted by Christ, to teach and guide men through life, has the right to change Ceremonial laws of the Old Testament and hence, we accept her change of the Sabbath to Sunday. We frankly say, ‘yes’, the Church made this change, made this law, as she made many other laws…

“We also say that of all Protestants, the Seventh-day Adventists are the only group that reason correctly and are consistent with their teachings. It is always somewhat laughable to see the Protestant Churches, in the pulpit and legislature, demand the observance of Sundays of which there is nothing in the Bible.” The Catholic Extension Magazine (Under the Blessing of Pope Pius XII) 1954.

"Of course the Catholic Church claims that the change [seventh day to first day Holy observance] was her act. It could not have been otherwise, as none in those days would have dreamed of doing anything in matters of spiritual and ecclesiastical and religious without her. And the act is a MARK of her ecclesiastical POWER and AUTHORITY in religious matters. H. F. Thomas, Chancellor for the Cardinal November 11, 1895.

It has nothing to do with God or the Bible…it’s a man-made tradition plain and simple.​

The practice of “eating the gods” is of pagan origin; not in remembrance of the Holy Communion. Research the history of the Egyptian sun-god Osiris and the god of the dead Serapis. Ancient Central Americans did the same thing with their sun-god Quetzalcoatl. This was also practiced in Persian cultures in worship of the sun-god Mithra. Romans symbolized grape juice with the blood of Bacchus, the god of wine and revelry.

These practices are where Catholics get the idea that you’re eating Jesus’ literal body and drinking His literal blood. The blasphemous claims of Catholic priests to summon Christ to your mass is simply ridiculous and nearly as shameful as claiming to be able to forgive sins.

“I never invite an angel down from heaven to hear mass here. The is not the place for angels. The only person in heaven I ever ask to come down here is Jesus Christ, and Him I command to come down. He has to come when I bid him. I took bread in my fingers this morning and said: ‘This is the body and blood of Jesus Christ’, and He had to come down. This is one of the things He must do. He must come down every time I say mass at my bidding…I do it in obedience, reverence, homage, and adoration, but I do it, and when I do it, Christ must obey.” Roman Catholic Priest David S. Phelan, The Western Watchman (St. Louis: Western Watchman Publishing Company), June 10, 1915.

Absurd!​

This is why they think they can make the changes:

“The Pope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he is not a mere man, but as it were God, and the vicar of God…Hence the Pope is crowned with a triple crown, as King of Heaven and of earth and of the lower regions…The Pope is at it were God on earth,…chief King of kings,…to whom has been entrusted by the omnipotent God directions…of the heavenly kingdom.” Lucius Ferraris, “Papa,” article 2 in his Prompta Bibliotheca (“Handy Library”), Volume 6 (Venice, Italy: Gaspar Storti, 1772), pp. 26-29. Latin. Reprinted (Rome: Press of the Propaganda, 1899)

“All names which in the Scriptures are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that He is over all the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope.” Cardinal Robert Bellarmine, On the Authority of Councils (1619 edition), Volume II, book 2, chapter 17, p. 266

“…complete submission and obedience of will to the Church and the Roman Pontiff, as to God Himself.” Pope Leo XIII, Encyclical Letter “On the Chief Duties of Christians as Citizens,” dated January 10, 1890, translated in The Great Encyclical Letters of Pope Leo XIII (New York: Benziger, 1903), p. 193

“We [the Popes] hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty.” Pope Leo XIII, in and encyclical letter dated June 20, 1894, translated in The Great Encyclical Letters of Pope Leo XIII (New York: Benziger, 1903), p. 304

The more I learn of how your religion has desecrated Jesus’ name makes me want to vomit! But, I love you all the same because you’re God’s children. I just pray that you heed His call to come out of the devil’s church before it’s too late.

 

[happilycatholic]

We do; about 4 times a year.

No you don’t. You eat crackers and drink juice.

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Were you baptized by immersion to have your sins washed away?

My baptism is just as valid as yours I asure you.

Odd that God would change the day without telling anyone that He had done so.

He did. He resurrected his Son on Sunday. All the rest of the Christians got it. Heck, even the Jews got it and they recognize it as the Christian day to celebrate Christ’s resurrection.

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Most Christians as late as the 5th century still kept the Sabbath.

Really? Who were these Sabbath-keeping Christians?

The last two are not only unbiblical they run contrary to what God Himself said:

Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Again with the Old Testament.

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Revelation 22:14 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Finally, a fact that we all can agree on.

 

[BibleTruth]

You’re right, the Apostles didn’t change it. God did by raising His Son on Sunday, sanctifying it and instituting the New Covenant. What God changed was not the Sabbath, it was the sign and the seal He changed. You state that the Sabbath was the sign and the seal of our obedience to God. Well Christ is the sign and the seal of the New Covenant. Today, we express that in our baptism and the Eucharist. The Jews continue to express the sign and the seal of the Old Covenant by keeping (truly keeping I might add) the Sabbath.

To add some clarity to your misunderstanding of what happened when Jesus was resurrected…His death and resurrection were anti-typical events of the Passover celebration. He died on the fourteenth day of the month to represent the slaying of the Passover Lamb, rested on the fifteenth day to represent the Feast of Unleavened Bread and rose on the sixteenth day to represent the Firstfruit of the harvest. This is why in John 19:31, it refers to the Sabbath between Jesus’ death and resurrection as a “high” Sabbath (the NIV calls it a “special” Sabbath)…because it was a weekly Sabbath that fell on an annual Sabbath (Feast of Unleavened Bread) day.

The symbolic event that we have to represent His resurrection is in baptism where when we’re submerged in water, we kill off the old self and when we’re raised out of the water, we’re alive in Christ (Romans 6:3-4). The Greek words Paul uses for “baptized” and “baptism” are “baptizō” and “baptisma”, respectively, and both mean complete immersion under water. I suppose the only way for you to accept that biblical truth is to shed the Catholic misinterpretation of how baptism is supposed to be performed.

So, the resurrection doesn’t have anything to do with changing the Sabbath observance from the seventh day to the first day. The Bible doesn’t mention anything of the sort. God’s sign and seal of sanctification has not changed since it was instituted. Please show me where in the Bible it states that “Christ is the sign and the seal of the New Covenant”. One verse will suffice.

And if you think the Jewish practice of obeying the 39 or however many rules of the Sabbath is true Sabbath-keeping, you’re sadly mistaken…as were the Pharisees who Jesus rebuked.

Just admit that you’re following man-made tradition when it comes to the true meaning of the Sabbath and we can move on to another topic because your argument has no biblical support whatsoever.

 

[BibleTruth]

Odd that God would change the day without telling anyone that He had done so.**

He did. He resurrected his Son on Sunday. All the rest of the Christians got it. Heck, even the Jews got it and they recognize it as the Christian day to celebrate Christ’s resurrection.**

HC,

I’ll reiterate a quote from your church that I posted earlier, in case you didn’t get a chance to read it:

"We Catholics do not accept the Bible as the only rule of faith. Besides the Bible, we have the living Church, as a rule to guide us. We say, this Church instituted by Christ, to teach and guide men through life, has the right to change Ceremonial laws of the Old Testament and hence, we accept her change of the Sabbath to Sunday. We frankly say, “yes”, the Church made this change, made this law, as she made many other laws…

“We also say that of all Protestants, the Seventh-day Adventists are the only group that reason correctly and are consistent with their teachings.*** It is always somewhat laughable to see the Protestant Churches, in the pulpit and legislature, demand the observance of Sundays of which there is nothing in the Bible***.” The Catholic Extension Magazine (Under the Blessing of Pope Pius XII) 1954

Just because all the other Christians “got it” doesn’t make it right, my friend.

“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow is the road that leads to life, and only a few find it” (Matthew 7:13-14, NIV).

Even if I’m the only one, I will continue to hold to God’s word as my source of truth!

 

[BibleTruth]

Most Christians as late as the 5th century still kept the Sabbath.
Really? Who were these Sabbath-keeping Christians?

5th Century Christians

Down even to the fifth century the observance of the Jewish Sabbath was continued in the Christian church. “Ancient Christianity Exemplified,” Lyman Coleman, ch. 26, sec. 2, p. 527.

In Jerome’s day (420 A.D.) the devoutest Christians did ordinary work on Sunday. “Treatise of the Sabbath Day,” by Dr. White, Lord Bishop of Ely, p. 219.

France
“Wherefore, except Vespers and Nocturns, there are no public services among them in the day except on Saturday (Sabbath) and Sunday.” John Cassian, A French monk, “Institutes,” Book 3, ch. 2.

Africa
“Augustine deplored the fact that in two neighbouring churches in Africa one observes the seventh-day Sabbath, another fasted on it.” Dr. Peter Heylyn, “The History of the Sabbath.” p. 416.

Spain (400 A.D.)
“Ambrose sanctified the seventh day as the Sabbath (as he himself says). Ambrose had great influence in Spain, which was also observing the Saturday Sabbath.” Truth Triumphant, p. 68.

Sidonius (Speaking Of King Theodoric Of The Goths, A.D. 454-526)
“It is a fact that it was formerly the custom in the East to keep the Sabbath in the same manner as the Lord’s day and to hold sacred assemblies: while on the other hand, the people of the West, contending for the Lord’s day have neglected the celebration of the Sabbath.” “Apollinaries Sidonli Epistolae,” lib.1, 2; Migne, 57.

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“The people of Constantinople, and almost everywhere, assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the first day of the week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria.” Socrates, “Ecclesiastical History,” Book 7, chap.19.

“For although almost all churches throughout The World celebrated the sacred mysteries (the Lord’s Supper) on the Sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, refuse to do this.” The footnote which accompanies the foregoing quotation explains the use of the word “Sabbath.” It says: "That is, upon the Saturday. It should be observed, that Sunday is never called “the Sabbath’ by the ancient Fathers and historians.” Socrates, “Ecclesiastical History,” Book 5, chap. 22, p. 289.

Augustine shows here that the Sabbath was observed in his day “in the greater part of the Christian world,” and his testimony in this respect is all the more valuable because he himself was an earnest and consistent Sunday-keeper. See “Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers,” 1st Series, Vol.1, pp. 353, 354.

Pope Sylvester (314-335) was the first to order the churches to fast on Saturday, and Pope Innocent (402-417) made it a binding law in the churches that obeyed him, (In order to bring the Sabbath into disfavour.) “Innocentius did ordain the Saturday or Sabbath to be always fasted.” Dr. Peter Heylyn, "History of the Sabbath, Part 2, p. 44.

Of course, these are just random, unsubstantiated quotes but history does bear witness to these facts whether you choose to believe them or not.

 

[BibleTruth]

How can you accept his covenant and its sanctifying power if both of those are Jesus and you refuse to remember that covenant the way Christ asked us to. i.e. the Eucharist. Not crackers and grape juice, the real Body and Blood of Christ. We are baptized to wash away sin and to place ourselves in Christ’s Church. We receive the Eucharist as a sign that we remain in Christ’s Church and obedient to Him as he asked us to do this in remembrance of Him.

When Paul speaks of the Lord’s Supper in 1 Corinthians 10:16, he refers to the cup being blessed and the bread being broke. It simply means that they’re consecrated to represent Jesus’ blood and body. Only someone with a twisted agenda would bastardize that solemn and sacred remembrance to suggest it means that we’re eating Jesus’ literal body and drinking His literal blood.

Come on, now…! Do you really believe Jesus is leaving heaven every time when, worldwide, Catholics are holding mass, subjecting Himself to the call of an earthly priest to be included in a pagan-influenced ritual? (Then again…I guess you do believe that) “No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons” (1 Corinthians 10:20, NIV).

Ask yourself…how could the disciples have been eating Jesus literal body and drinking His literal blood when He was the one offering it to them the day before He was crucified? It’s symbolic to mean, in part, that we’re to have Christ in us but that’s done through the power of the Holy Spirit…not in something that we expel in our waste matter.

 

[BibleTruth]

Were you baptized by immersion to have your sins washed away?

My baptism is just as valid as yours I asure you.

“Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you” (Matthew 28:19-20, NIV).

You can’t become a follower of Jesus (a disciple) when you’re a baby. If you notice in the sanctuary service, the priest washed his hands in the laver after the sacrifice was offered. You have to first have faith in Christ to be baptized into Him.

Your baptism is biblically invalid.

 

[djconklin]

We do; about 4 times a year.

No you don’t. You eat crackers and drink juice.

Actually, it is a wafer of unleavened bread and grape juice.

Were you baptized by immersion to have your sins washed away?

My baptism is just as valid as yours I asure you.

According to whom? The Bible says:

Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Were you “buried” and then “raised”? Note that the eunuch who was baptized by Phillip was baptized where there was “much water.” And of course, the meaning the Greek “baptidzo” means “to immerse” after the dye makers who dipped the cloth wholly into the dye.

Odd that God would change the day without telling anyone that He had done so.

He did. He resurrected his Son on Sunday.

No one is questioning which day Christ roseon–a work by the way. The question is where did God “tell” people that Sunday (day of the sun) was now sanctified?

All the rest of the Christians got it.

Historians say otherwise.

“The people of Constantinople, and almost everywhere, assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the first day of the week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria. There are several cities and villages in Egypt where, contrary to the usage established elsewhere, the people meet together on Sabbath evenings, and, although they have dined previously, partake of the mysteries.” Salaminius Hermias
Sozomen, Ecclesiastical History, Chapter XIX at ntslibrary.com/PDF%20Books/Socrates%20and%20Sozomenus%20Ecclesiastical%20Histories.pdf – page 592

Socrates Scholasticus:

“For although almost all churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries on the sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, have ceased to do this.” Ecclesiastical History, Book 5, chapter 22 found @ ntslibrary.com/PDF%20Books/Socrates%20and%20Sozomenus%20Ecclesiastical%20Histories.pdf – page 244

See also the histories of Ireland and Ethiopia which kept the seventh-day Sabbath till much later than that.

Heck, even the Jews got it and they recognize it as the Christian day to celebrate Christ’s resurrection.

Where’d you get this info from?

Most Christians as late as the 5th century still kept the Sabbath.

Really? Who were these Sabbath-keeping Christians?

Yes, really. See the above quotes.

The last two

are not only unbiblical they run contrary to what God Himself said:

Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Again with the Old Testament.

There is no question that the text itself is found in the OT. But, that isn’t all you claimed–you also included: “Old Sign. Old Seal” and those are the two I’m responding to (note the bolded and underlined material in my quote, which I added for your benefit). And, most importantly, God is describing the nature of the new covenant.

 

[andrea3710]

I saw some use the word covenant. What does the very word means.It is a contract.God made a contract with Israel even before He gave to Israel the written Law. Despite the people before the written Law the law existed and there were some who knew about it and walked in it,that is why we read in Bible that they were liked by God for their obedience. Sabbath was instituted by God and we read in the Bible it was Sabbath of the Lord. It had nothing to do with men but men were supposed to obey it and show that they honor God by observing it. We see that there was law before Israel received it from Moses.
We read in Genesis 26;4,5…and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept my charge,My commandments.My statues and My laws…

It is clear that there was a law before Moses…and it did include the Sabbath for we read that the Sabbath was from the beginning and God blessed it so if anyone disobey it He was not living according to God’s will but we read here that Abraham did.
Also we read next verses…
Exodus 31;13,16 Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations that you may know I am the Lord who sanctifies you.
Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.

Perpetual here in this verse comes from Hebrew word עלם עולם
‛ôlâm ‛ôlâm-which is translated as properly concealed, that is, the vanishing point; generally time out of mind (past or future), that is, (practically) eternity; frequentative adverbially (especially with prepositional prefix) always: - always (-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, [n-]) ever (-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end).

Israel still exist so Sabbath is still effective only they lack one thing and that is the Lamb-Jesus Christ…Jesus never came to abolish the law which He said Himself . What had no effect after His resurrection was the sacrificial law.
After He resurrected there was no point in sacrifices and everything that was connected to it…but Sabbath had nothing to do with sacrifices…God has always called Sabbath-My Sabbath,it was not done for men but they were to observe it. Sabbath will be the sign forever that will mark the people,until the end…there will be left only two groups of people in this end times…those who follow the true God and those who follow the false god-the Sun god. If God said that the sign between people will be the sign which is Sabbath what else we can add to it? We have those who follow Sabbath and those who follow Sunday. There are majority of those who follow SUNday…what does the Bible say about deceiving?
What Jesus said about Sabbath?-that we should pray that our flight is not on Sabbath? Has anyone wondered why? If the Sabbath was not important would not Jesus said it? Or maybe He would then mention the Sunday? Lucifer has always been presented as Sun god therefore he has his day the day of the sun SUNday…God have always given straight messages to His people. If there was a change of day from Sabbath to Sunday don’t you think He would say something about it like He said it so clearly about the Sabbath? We never find any mentioning of Sunday as the day of rest in the Bible. Nowhere. If God planned to change His day He would bless it and hollow it like He did it with the Sabbath so openly and clearly. He would mention the new day of observance over and over like He did with the Sabbath but we find anything like that in the Bible. It is men who gave the ideas of that change influenced by people who were following the SUNgod around them. I have been SDA since I was born, my parents were reading Bible and books on the future things that are to happen. I must admit that I was skeptic back then but I can say now that things are happening just as predicted…Don’t you see what is going on right now? G20, New World Order, ecumenism, soon one currency and money that will make only those of one mind to be able to buy and sell. How much more do you need? Who do you believe? Do you rely on your political leaders, church leaders? Can you rely on men? If each one of us does not have personal relationship with Christ and leave the Babylon he/she is heading for delusion and destruction. I call each one of you and I include myself as well…study your Bibles, stay back of the TV and movies and all the entertainment that takes you away from God’s Word,study and pray to Jesus and He will be revealed to you and save you. I am not here lobbying anyone for SDA church or any church…I am calling each one of you to come to God through Christ Jesus directly let each one of us has His laws written on our hearts and our minds for the time is near,very near…Satan does not sleep,he is very active and is coming soon with great power of delusion and this world leaders are setting the ground for his arrival.
Blessing to all of you

 

[BibleTruth]

If each one of us does not have personal relationship with Christ and leave the Babylon he/she is heading for delusion and destruction. I call each one of you and I include myself as well…study your Bibles, stay back of the TV and movies and all the entertainment that takes you away from God’s Word,study and pray to Jesus and He will be revealed to you and save you. I am not here lobbying anyone for SDA church or any church…I am calling each one of you to come to God through Christ Jesus directly let each one of us has His laws written on our hearts and our minds for the time is near,very near…Satan does not sleep,he is very active and is coming soon with great power of delusion and this world leaders are setting the ground for his arrival.

AMEN!!!

 

[happilycatholic]

“Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you” (Matthew 28:19-20, NIV).

You can’t become a follower of Jesus (a disciple) when you’re a baby. If you notice in the sanctuary service, the priest washed his hands in the laver after the sacrifice was offered. You have to first have faith in Christ to be baptized into Him.

Your baptism is biblically invalid.

I would never think myself so important in the world as to be able to tell another his baptism is invalid. Talk about the work of Satan. You are very bold “my friend”.

Christ keep you.

This has just gone off the deep end.

 

[greggy53]

I would never think myself so important in the world as to be able to tell another his baptism is invalid. Talk about the work of Satan. You are very bold “my friend”.

Christ keep you.

This has just gone off the deep end.

And what do SDA’s believe happens to babies that die before they can make the decision to follow Christ?

1. do they go to heaven?
2. Do they go to Hell?

 

[BibleTruth]

And what do SDA’s believe happens to babies that die before they can make the decision to follow Christ?

1. do they go to heaven?
2. Do they go to Hell?

In our church, we dedicate babies to God, but baptism is a completely different thing as the Bible shows.

I personally believe that God has mercy on any child/person that dies before being accountable for his/her own actions.

 

[greggy53]

In our church, we dedicate babies to God, but baptism is a completely different thing as the Bible shows.

I personally believe that God has mercy on any child/person that dies before being accountable for his/her own actions.

Your personal belief? What scritpural evidence do you have for this?
At what age does someone become accountable for their actions?..
What about adults who have never had the opportunity to be “saved”

What is the official line of the SDA hurch ?

 

[BibleTruth]

I would never think myself so important in the world as to be able to tell another his baptism is invalid. Talk about the work of Satan. You are very bold “my friend”.

Christ keep you.

This has just gone off the deep end.

Are you calling the Bible Satan’s work?

I’m not thinking myself so important, HC. On my own, I’m a worthless sinner who needs Christ just like the rest of us.

But isn’t it clear in the Bible (Matthew 7:21-23, for example) that some who consider themselves a Christian won’t make it into heaven? Ask yourself…why would that be? How is it that someone could call on the Lord’s name and still not even know Him?

I know my post came off pretty harsh, but consider Jesus’ own words in Matthew 7:23…“Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’” Do you think they’ll then accuse Him of working on behalf of Satan?

 

[BibleTruth]

Your personal belief? What scritpural evidence do you have for this?
At what age does someone become accountable for their actions?..
What about adults who have never had the opportunity to be “saved”

What is the official line of the SDA hurch ?

By underscoring my “personal belief”, that would indicate that I don’t have a scriptural reference for what I said. I serve a merciful God and sometimes struggle with the idea of Him condemning a child or someone who was incapable of making a rational decision to accept Him if they never had the chance or were unable to due to some sort of mental inability. However, God is sovereign and I don’t question His authority on whatever He does do; I simply serve Him out of faith and love. We are all born into sin, regardless of our circumstance so to repeat, this is a personal belief and not something I would teach as doctrine.

With that said though, even if someone is “baptized” at birth, that doesn’t give them a free ride at any point in their life. We’re judged according to what we do with the faith we have…not by the fact that we’ve been baptized.

How about we go back to the discussion regarding the attempted change of the Sabbath from the seventh to the first day before moving on since none of those posts have been addressed so far?

 

[happilycatholic]

Are you calling the Bible Satan’s work?

I’m not thinking myself so important, HC. On my own, I’m a worthless sinner who needs Christ just like the rest of us.

But isn’t it clear in the Bible (Matthew 7:21-23, for example) that some who consider themselves a Christian won’t make it into heaven? Ask yourself…why would that be?
How is it that someone could call on the Lord’s name and still not even know Him?

BECAUSE THEY JUDGED ONE ANOTHER. Please read on…

Here’s some more of what you quote from Matthew:

Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.

Do you know why he said that? Not because they hadn’t been baptised properly. It was because they had not been living properly. Evidenced here in what Jesus had just gotten finished saying:

By their fruits you shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit, and the evil tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can an evil tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit, shall be cut down, and shall be cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them.

I know my post came off pretty harsh, but consider Jesus’ own words in Matthew 7:23…“Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’” Do you think they’ll then accuse Him of working on behalf of Satan?

No you came off in your post as bearing bad fruits. Knowing if someone has been baptised properly or not is not your right. It’s God’s. You are bearing bad fruits.

And it’s funny that the passage you quote comes from the part of the Sermon that Jesus is teaching them about judgement of others:

Judge not, that you may not be judged, 2 For with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged: and with what measure you mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And why seest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye; and seest not the beam that is in thy own eye? 4 Or how sayest thou to thy brother: Let me cast the mote out of thy eye; and behold a beam is in thy own eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam in thy own eye, and then shalt thou see to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

You know Bible Truth, I am perfectly fine to go back and forth all day long about the different ways in which we serve our Lord and even some of the things we think are outside Scriptural teaching with concern to our Church Fathers and leaders, but in the end I would never tell someone that their baptism wasn’t valid. I certainly wouldn’t insinuate that they belived the Bible a work of Satan in an attempt to glance over my own sin of judgement.

But apparently you are under the impression that you as an Seventh-Day Adventist know each and every individual and how they were baptized and if that baptism was valid according to YOUR divine interpretation of the Bible.

Sad really.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

I call each one of you and I include myself as well…study your Bibles, stay back of the TV and movies and all the entertainment that takes you away from God’s Word,study and pray to Jesus and He will be revealed to you and save you. I am not here lobbying anyone for SDA church or any church…I am calling each one of you to come to God through Christ Jesus directly let each one of us has His laws written on our hearts and our minds for the time is near,very near…Satan does not sleep,he is very active and is coming soon with great power of delusion and this world leaders are setting the ground for his arrival.
Blessing to all of you

AMEN!!!

Hi Andrea (were you here before under the name Arglaze?..that will be a real test of honesty),

You say you are not lobbying for the Seventh-day Adventist church, or any church…and yet if I tell you that I did all of the things above which you call people to do, and that led me to the Catholic Church…will you accept that, or will you continue to accuse those who worship the Creator and Redeemer God of Heaven on Sunday (or any day other than saturday), of worshipping Satan?

It appears from all you have shared that there is no choice, in your opinion, to follow God unless you worship on saturday. And that leaves few options available except for the SDA church.

So according to Andrea and those SDAs who agree with her, it seems that all you Catholics, Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, all Orthodox, Anglicans, Episcopalians, Lutherans, Methodists, Baptists, Presberterians, Assemblies of God, Churches of God, Pentecostals, Evangelicals, Fundamentalists, and every other group of believers who profess Jesus Christ, but have been worshipping on Sunday, The day of the sun god Lucifer…have been worshipping in vain and your worship and prayers to Jesus Christ are not really going to Jesus Christ or God, but in reality, we have all been deceived and have been worshipping Satan.

Am I the only one seeing the conclusions being made here by the SDAs, or am I just reading what they are saying incorrectly?

If a person studies their Bible, prays to God and to Jesus Christ, and is led to a church or conclusion other that what Andrea and the SDAs believe…than that personal experience is invalid, illegitimate, and a deception by and tribute to Satan.

Is this what you mean Andrea and Andrew (who agreed with her) or do you believe that if a person does all that you say they should do and are led to a church other than the SDA church, that they are truly led by God? If not, then you are lobbying for the SDA church.

Hi Andrew,
I have not forgotten my post regarding my thoughts on the sabbath/sunday issue…but I was on a retreat this weekend and didn’t have time to complete it. But I will share it as soon as I do complete it.

God bless all!!!

 

[greggy53]

By underscoring my “personal belief”, that would indicate that I don’t have a scriptural reference for what I said. I serve a merciful God and sometimes struggle with the idea of Him condemning a child or someone who was incapable of making a rational decision to accept Him if they never had the chance or were unable to due to some sort of mental inability. However, God is sovereign and I don’t question His authority on whatever He does do; I simply serve Him out of faith and love. We are all born into sin, regardless of our circumstance so to repeat, this is a personal belief and not something I would teach as doctrine.

With that said though, even if someone is “baptized” at birth, that doesn’t give them a free ride at any point in their life. We’re judged according to what we do with the faith we have…not by the fact that we’ve been baptized.

How about we go back to the discussion regarding the attempted change of the Sabbath from the seventh to the first day before moving on since none of those posts have been addressed so far?

Without scriptual references for your belief?, but The SDA’s have a scripture for everything? At least that’s what an SDA has told me…they believe in the Bible period!
So, I want to see your bible references, and the official line of the SDA.

I know you won’t have any problem pulling out your pre-selected verses to back your position on the Saturday worship thing… Doug Batchelor has infered that since Sunday is named after the Roman God of the Sun, that those who worship on Sunday worship the pagan God. But What he didn’t say is that Saturday is named after the Roman God Saturn, so shouldn’t we also infer that those who worship on Saturday worship the God Saturn?..You need to listen to what con men like batchelor don’t say as well as what they do.