Doug Batchelor: His Catholic Church Attacks

[djconklin]

Originally Posted by djconklin
Then you won’t have any trouble showing the biblical texts

that show SDA’s aren’t keeping the Sabbath as you have repeatedly claimed.[emphasis added]

Good one dj. I didn’t say the 613 commandments that include the 39 precepts governing the keeping of the Sabbath were in the Bible. I said the Bible is a Jewish source.

Nice try. I didn’t say anything about the 613; I asked for biblical texts.

 

[happilycatholic]

Prior to me pointing you to the web site you had said things that no SDA’s believes. Where’d you get it from?

You are making the accusation. What did I accuse you of believing that you don’t believe and I’ll try to answer your question.

 

[josie_L]

I don’t use EGW for my beliefs; I use Scripture.

1st question:

If you follow scripture than why not join one of the thousands upon thousands of protestant denominations instead of adhering to the scriptural interpretation of a false prophet?

2nd question:

Are you a vegetarian and/or veggan?

 

[djconklin]

Originally Posted by djconklin
I don’t use EGW for my beliefs; I use Scripture.

Are you a vegetarian and/or veggan?

Neither. I had stomach surgery back in 1985 for ulcers and I have found that I can’t eat fruits and vegetables straight–too much acid–even in lettuce and bananas of all things!

 

[greggy53]

I have never heard the church not mentioning the high illiteracy–we know that is true even among people today. And just because they can read and write doesn’t mean that they understand what they are reading. I have heard people in the church correct the idea of why the Bible was chained to the wall in the church in Martin Luther’s day–so people couldn’t steal it. The “old” view was from ignoarance–not maliciousness.

No, and you should know the joke on the word “believe.”

When you say the word church I take it you mean the SDA variety.
I have heard Batchelor use this and many more deceptions in his seminars which are on-line…Amazing facts.com. I don’t understand what chaining a bible to a wall has to do with it, or some joke about believing…You remind me of something Kipling once wrote: “They twist the truth to make a trap for fools”

 

[Verisimilitude]

Nice try. I didn’t say anything about the 613; I asked for biblical texts.

How about this as it realtes not to the specific, but the truth regardless.
Matthew 23:13-36

Verse 15 is particularly apt.

 

[happilycatholic]

The only thing I’ve made separate is remembering Jesus’ life of service from worshipping Him as our Creator (and thus our Lord).

This is what you said in the context that you said it:

God asked the Isrealites to remember Him in the Sabbath. Christ asks us to remember Him in the Eucharist.
Two different things. The Sabbath is to remind us who made us and is a sign that it is God who sanctifies us. The Communion service (with foot-washing) is a rememberance of Christ’s life of service to save us.

And where is that in the Bible? Where does it say we remember God and Christ separately for their respective gifts of creation? Where does Jesus tell them to take His Body and Blood to remember Him for his life of service to save us? It says to do this because it is the blood of the New Testament (New Covenant).

“For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” Matt. 26:28 KJV

It’s funny that Jesus should tie all that together for you in this passage:

*Just as the Father who has life sent me and I have life because of the Father so the man who feeds **on me will have life because of me. . . (John 6:53-57) *
**
And yet you still insist on this claim that there are two covenants.

Show me where Jesus preached that we should remember Him in the Sabbath. You’ve yet to show me that.

 

[djconklin]

If you follow scripture than why not join one of the thousands upon thousands of protestant denominations instead of adhering to the scriptural interpretation of a false prophet?

1. Your question starts with a false assumption that EGW is a false prophet. This has been proven wrong repeatedly.
2. You also assumne that the church bases its teaching solely on the teaching of Ellen G. White. If you look at what we believe (adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html) you’ll see that they are all supported by Scripture and not Ellen White.
3. Your question is based on a false assumption of even what Ellen G. White says about herself and her counsel to the church:

"Lay Sister White right to one side: lay her to one side. Don’t you never [sic] quote my words again as long as you live, until you can obey the Bible. When you take the Bible and make that your food, and your meat, and your drink, and you make that the elements of your character, when you can do that you will know better how to receive some counsel from God. But here is the Word, the precious Word, exalted before you today. And don’t you give a rap any more what ‘Sister White Said’ —‘Sister White said this,’ and ‘Sister White said that,’ and ‘Sister White said the other thing’. But say, ‘Thus saith the Lord God of Israel.’ Spalding and Magan Collection

 

[josie_L]

Take the last line and see how many websites it could have came from.

And for the rest of the story that the critics don’t dare tell you about see

1. whiteestate.org/issues/Vegetarian.html “ELLEN WHITE
   AND VEGETARIANISM: Did She Practice What She Preached?”
   By Roger W. Coon, Edited by Donald E. Mansell.
2. “Ambivalent on meat-eating for most of her life. … After her health visions, she made it a policy to avoid flesh foods whenever possible. She gave freedom of choice to others, including members of her household.” found at whiteestate.org/books/mol/Chapt41.html; the footnote for the last sentence is “Forgoing flesh food was a struggle for Ellen White. Understanding this struggle and the circumstances that made her resolves more difficult to achieve helps everyone understand the process of Christian growth in themselves and others. See pp. 311-317.” The pages refer to the book Messenger of the Lord: The Prophetic Ministry of Ellen G. White
   Herbert E. Douglass. It is part of Chapter 27 “Principles and Policies” and can be seen here: whiteestate.org/books/mol/Chapt27.html#Principles%20and%20Policies

Mrs. White said of her testimonies, "it is God and not an erring mortal who has spoken."1 In a testimony to Elder G.A. Irwin she states that “those who do not accept the light God has given on health reform…can not represent the truth to others”.2** From this statement it is clear by her own definition that Mrs. White could not represent the truth to others if she was not a vegetarian. We could take this one step further and ask the question: If she ignored the light of heaven on meat eating, and thus according to her own testimony could not “represent the truth to others,” then how could she hold the position of church prophet–a role whose sole responsibility is to represent the truth to others? **

Mrs. White emphasized that eating meat would destroy not only physical health, but also spiritual life:

**"Is it not time that all should aim to dispense with flesh foods? How can those who are seeking to become pure, refined, and holy, that they may have the companionship of heavenly angels, continue to use as food anything that has so harmful an effect on soul and body?"3

Mrs. White said eating meat had a “harmful” effect upon the “soul”. As you read on, you will discover that all the while Mrs. White was the prophetess of the Adventist church, she was secretly “harming her soul” by eating meat.
1869 - I’ve Stopped Eating Meat! **

My question is why if she was told not to eat meat/animal products because it was harmful to the soul, did she then eat it?

Noticed how in 1869 she states she had stopped eating meat. What a liar!

More EGW Quotes on Meat-eating

"Let not any of our ministers set an evil example in the eating of flesh-meat. Let them and their families live up to the light of health reform. Let not our ministers animalize their own nature and the nature of their children."39

“If ever there was a time when the diet should be of the most simple kind, it is now. Meat should not be placed before our children. Its influence is to excite and strengthen the lower passions, and has a tendency to deaden the moral powers. Grains and fruits prepared free from grease, and in as natural a condition as possible, should be the food for the tables of all who claim to be preparing for translation to heaven.”"40

"You should be teaching your children. You should be instructing them how to shun the vices and corruption’s of this age. Instead of this, many are studying how to get something good to eat. You place upon your tables butter, eggs, and meat and then your children partake of them. They are fed with the very things that will excite their animal passions, and then you come to meeting and ask God to bless and save your children. How high do your prayers go?"41

"Those who have received instruction regarding the evils of the use of flesh foods…will not continue to indulge their appetite for food that they know to be unhealthful. God demands that the appetites be cleansed, and that self-denial be practiced in regard to those things which are not good. This is a work that will have to be done before His people can stand before Him a perfected people."42

“If any prophet teaches the truth,
yet does not practice what he teaches,
he is a false prophet.”

 

[djconklin]

And yet you still insist on this claim that there are two covenants.

I don’t recall ever saying such a thing. But, that is why the Bible has the OT and the NT.

Jeremiah 31:33 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Show me where Jesus preached that we should remember Him in the Sabbath. You’ve yet to show me that.

I have done so repeatedly:

Ezekiel 20:12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them.

Exodus 20:8-11 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Revelation 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Here’s a new text for you:

Ezekiel 20:20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God.

Who is your Lord and your God? Who created you? You correctly stated it in an earlier post today.

 

[djconklin]

Noticed how in 1869 she states she had stopped eating meat. What a liar!

Could you give us the quote from EGW that says that? Then I’ll know who is the liar.

My question is why if she was told not to eat meat/animal products because it was harmful to the soul, did she then eat it?

Answered in the links in the post you quoted.

 

[josie_L]

1. Your question starts with a false assumption that EGW is a false prophet. This has been proven wrong repeatedly.

So then you follow her interpretation as a “true” prophet?

1. You also assumne that the church bases its teaching solely on the teaching of Ellen G. White. If you look at what we believe (adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html) you’ll see that they are all supported by Scripture and not Ellen White.

So then you follow a denomination started by Ellen White?

1. Your question is based on a false assumption of even what Ellen G. White says about herself and her counsel to the church:

So says the one who has been deceived.

"Lay Sister White right to one side: lay her to one side. Don’t you never [sic] quote my words again as long as you live, until you can obey the Bible. When you take the Bible and make that your food, and your meat, and your drink, and you make that the elements of your character, when you can do that you will know better how to receive some counsel from God. But here is the Word, the precious Word, exalted before you today. And don’t you give a rap any more what ‘Sister White Said’ —‘Sister White said this,’ and ‘Sister White said that,’ and ‘Sister White said the other thing’. But say, ‘Thus saith the Lord God of Israel.’ Spalding and Magan Collection

**This only proves she was good at playing the hypocrite. **

 

[djconklin]

Originally Posted by djconklin

1. Your question starts with a false assumption that EGW is a false prophet. This has been proven wrong repeatedly.

So then you follow her interpretation as a “true” prophet?

Nope, I use the Bible and the Bible only.

1. You also assumne that the church bases its teaching solely on the teaching of Ellen G. White. If you look at what we believe (adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html

) you’ll see that they are all supported by Scripture and not Ellen White.

So then you follow a denomination started by Ellen White?

She never started a church.

1. Your question is based on a false assumption of even what Ellen G. White says about herself and her counsel to the church:

So says the one who has been deceived.

I’m not the one who has been caught posting lies found on the web.

"Lay Sister White right to one side: lay her to one side. Don’t you never [sic]
quote my words again as long as you live, until you can obey the Bible. When you take the Bible and make that your food, and your meat, and your drink, and you make that the elements of your character, when you can do that you will know better how to receive some counsel from God. But here is the Word, the precious Word, exalted before you today. And don’t you give a rap any more what ‘Sister White Said’ —‘Sister White said this,’ and ‘Sister White said that,’ and ‘Sister White said the other thing’. But say, ‘Thus saith the Lord God of Israel.’ Spalding and Magan Collection

This only proves she was good at playing the hypocrite.

That’s what the critics of the bible claim when they post their lists of contradicitons.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

According to Bibleworks there’s no such Greek word in Scripture.

Why are you using Bibleworks? I thought you could read Koine Greek?

God bless all!!!

 

[josie_L]

Could you give us the quote from EGW that says that? Then I’ll know who is the liar.

**Actually I’ll give you the website, the quote and the reference:

In 1869 Mrs. White wrote:

"I have not changed my course a particle since I adopted the health reform. I have not taken one step back since the light from heaven upon this subject first shone upon my pathway. I broke away from everything at once, from meat and butter, and from three meals. …I left off those things from principle. I took my stand on health reform from principle."4

1. E.G. White, Testimonies, Vol. 2, pp. 371-372.

Taken from: ellenwhiteexposed.com/contra6.htm**

 

[happilycatholic]

Nice try. I didn’t say anything about the 613; I asked for biblical texts.

Well, I’m sorry but if you want the laws that tell you how to properly keep the Sabbath which was the subject of the question, then you’ll have to either:

---

1.) Look at the website I gave you.
2.) Look at the Torah.
3.) Ask a Jew.

 

[djconklin]

Originally Posted by djconklin
I have never heard the church not mentioning the high illiteracy–we know that is true even among people today. And just because they can read and write doesn’t mean that they understand what they are reading. I have heard people in the church correct the idea of why the Bible was chained to the wall in the church in Martin Luther’s day–so people couldn’t steal it. The “old” view was from ignorance–not maliciousness.

No, and you should know the joke on the word “believe.”

When you say the word church I take it you mean the SDA variety.

In this case yes.

I have heard Batchelor use this and many more deceptions in his seminars which are on-line…Amazing facts.com.

And yet when i ask where he said this I get no specific link, why?

I don’t understand what chaining a bible to a wall has to do with it,

That’s one of teh claims people have made. I’m showing that informed people have corrected it. Sorry for confusing you with too many facts.

or some joke about believing…You remind me of something Kipling once wrote: “They twist the truth to make a trap for fools”

Except I don’t twist the truth. have you found the evidence yet that I twisted Scripture on Col. 2:16-17 as you claimed, or do you wish to eat that lie?

 

[djconklin]

Originally Posted by djconklin
Nice try. I didn’t say anything about the 613; I asked for biblical texts.

How about this as it realtes not to the specific, but the truth regardless.
Matthew 23:13-36

Verse 15 is particularly apt.

You can’t find the non-existent texts either, eh? I don’t blame you. Now as for judging others, I like:

Luke 6:38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

 

[josie_L]

Nope, I use the Bible and the Bible only.

According to her interpretation and prophecies otherwise why not join any other sola scriptura denomination.

She never started a church.

History states otherwise.

I’m not the one who has been caught posting lies found on the web.

They’re only lies once you disprove them.

That’s what the critics of the bible claim when they post their lists of contradicitons.

Contradictions on the part of Ellen White you mean.

 

[josie_L]

Mrs. White said of her testimonies, "it is God and not an erring mortal who has spoken."1 In a testimony to Elder G.A. Irwin she states that “those who do not accept the light God has given on health reform…can not represent the truth to others”.2** From this statement it is clear by her own definition that Mrs. White could not represent the truth to others if she was not a vegetarian. We could take this one step further and ask the question: If she ignored the light of heaven on meat eating, and thus according to her own testimony could not “represent the truth to others,” then how could she hold the position of church prophet–a role whose sole responsibility is to represent the truth to others? **

Mrs. White emphasized that eating meat would destroy not only physical health, but also spiritual life:

**"Is it not time that all should aim to dispense with flesh foods? How can those who are seeking to become pure, refined, and holy, that they may have the companionship of heavenly angels, continue to use as food anything that has so harmful an effect on soul and body?"3

Mrs. White said eating meat had a “harmful” effect upon the “soul”. As you read on, you will discover that all the while Mrs. White was the prophetess of the Adventist church, she was secretly “harming her soul” by eating meat.

1869 - I’ve Stopped Eating Meat! **

My question is why if she was told not to eat meat/animal products because it was harmful to the soul, did she then eat it?

Noticed how in 1869 she states she had stopped eating meat. What a liar!

More EGW Quotes on Meat-eating

"Let not any of our ministers set an evil example in the eating of flesh-meat. Let them and their families live up to the light of health reform. Let not our ministers animalize their own nature and the nature of their children."39

“If ever there was a time when the diet should be of the most simple kind, it is now. Meat should not be placed before our children. Its influence is to excite and strengthen the lower passions, and has a tendency to deaden the moral powers. Grains and fruits prepared free from grease, and in as natural a condition as possible, should be the food for the tables of all who claim to be preparing for translation to heaven.”"40

"You should be teaching your children. You should be instructing them how to shun the vices and corruption’s of this age. Instead of this, many are studying how to get something good to eat. You place upon your tables butter, eggs, and meat and then your children partake of them. They are fed with the very things that will excite their animal passions, and then you come to meeting and ask God to bless and save your children. How high do your prayers go?"41

"Those who have received instruction regarding the evils of the use of flesh foods…will not continue to indulge their appetite for food that they know to be unhealthful. God demands that the appetites be cleansed, and that self-denial be practiced in regard to those things which are not good. This is a work that will have to be done before His people can stand before Him a perfected people."42

“If any prophet teaches the truth,
yet does not practice what he teaches,
he is a false prophet.”

Whoops, didn’t mean to copy this twice!