Doug Batchelor: His Catholic Church Attacks

[andrea3710]

Ellen White cut meat out of her “bill of fare” immediately, and it was no longer a regular part of her diet. She practiced the general principles she taught others, such as that one must use the best food available under the circumstances. When away from home, either while traveling or camping in austere conditions, decades before convenience foods were invented, finding an adequate diet was often difficult. Not always able to obtain the best, for whatever reason, she at times settled for the good–the best under the circumstances.
Ellen White was not dogmatic regarding meat eating. In 1895 she noted, “I have never felt that it was my duty to say that no one should taste of meat under any circumstances. To say this . . . would be carrying matters to extremes. I have never felt that it was my duty to make sweeping assertions. What I have said I have said under a sense of duty, but I have been guarded in my statements, because I did not want to give occasion for anyone to be conscience for another” (Counsels on Diet and Foods, pp.462, 463).

 

[happilycatholic]

Whoever told you that one, lied to you–that’s one reason why I can’t become a Catholic, far too many lies are being told and believed; too many people don’t check to see if it is so. I don’t use her writing at all for theology.

You may not but the Church you follow does. No one here is commenting on your methods of understanding theology, or whether you use her writings. I haven’t given a personal opinion one way or another. You are the one that has said some pretty poisonous personal things. I’ve never questioned your Christianity as you have mine. I’ve never questioned your relationship with God as you have mine. I would never want to be what you are. In fact I apoligized for as much and you have yet to even have the slightest bit of remorse. You only deny things you say.

What no catholic will ever understand is how you can say we follow the Traditions of man and yet you follow EGW. You can’t separate her from you Church when she’s woven through the thread of the very basic fundemental beliefs you adhere to as an SDA. From the evidence on your church’s conference website, you absolutely follow a church that derrives it’s doctrine from her.

You can make all the claims you want about our Church. You can post horrible things and lies and misrepresentations, but when it comes down to it, if a person reads your conference website and then reads our Catechism, the only man-made traditions and doctrine found will be on yours.

That’s about it. All the Scripture in the world, all the writings, passages and quotes won’t change that. I admire you for your tenacity.

I challenge anyone on this thread to read the Vatican website and then read the adventist.org website and make your own conclusions.

 

[andrea3710]

O do not worry for me I had many right ones,see none of yours yet at least not scripturals,after all I am not the one who celebrates April Fool’s Day:

Thanks!!! And you keep trying my dear, and maybe soon you will get one right too!!!

God bless all!!!

 

[josie_L]

I will try to give you something little about that for I personally have experience in health reform.First meat eating is not a doctrine in SDA church and Bible does not say we should not eat meat,actually many SDA’s still eat meat. I was meat eater till I was 14 y.o. Until that time I had health problems…When I was about that age I started reading books of E.White especially those on health. When I read her suggestion that in the last days meat and animal products are not going to be suitable for eating I stopped with eating meat. Since then I did not eat any meat. My health got better and I grew stronger. I was aerobic instructor,spent more than four hours in the gym working out without any pause and later I would go and jog for 8 kilometers. Now I work as a nurse with patients who have cancer. I do not remember there was as much cancer when I was a child but now I have not only old people die but very young. I try to give them suggestions on how they should live,what they should eat and that they should stop to eat meat and animal products. Today meat,eggs and milk are not suitable for eating…During the time E.White was alive it was not so harmful but today it is. First I know one man who said he would never eat meat of his animals…They feed animals with hormones,antibiotics and food that consist bones of dead animals…Fish,milk,meat contain the most dangerous substance-Dioxin.
I heard on our local TV news that our fish in the Adriatic sea had some dioxin in it but scientist said that still the fish can be eaten for the amount of dioxin is insignificant,but they do not say that it accumulates in the body. Antibiotics too stay in our livers from 6 to 12 years. Hormones…I do not have to mention what they do to you.
That is why we have so much breast cancer even in men-mostly related to hormonal changes in the body. Antibiotics-more and more people do not react on antibiotics because they use them too much in the meat they eat and when doctors prescribe them. That is why we have so many allergies today…My friend’s daughters who live in Holland,when they were 7 years old they had breasts of grown up women-due to the milk they used in their meals. One patient who has cancer stopped eating meat and follows given instructions,her blood is OK and her tumor markers have fallen…My colleague aunt cured her bone cancer without any chemotherapy. Bone cancers are almost impossible to cure with modern medicine…sooner or later they all die.
So,during the times of E.White meat eating was not so harmful but she warned that the time will come when it is not going to be good for food. If you have any other contrary statements given by E.White be kind to share with the name of the book and page so I could check it out myself. National Geographic wrote a big article and it was also on TV that SDA’s are the ones who live long and are healthy.ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0511/feature1/learn.html

Point 1:

So why didn’t EGW follow her own “prophecies” on not eating meat/animal food products?

Point 2:

Why did she lie about abstaining from meat/animal products?

Point 3:

What makes you think that more people are dying of cancer and such because of meat alone? How about oral contraceptives, do you think that has some link to breast cancer?, and what about cervical cancer, does that have anything to do with the rise in sexual activity? There can be a whole plethora of reasons why people are sicker today in comparison to the past.

Point 4:

If SDAs live longer is it because they have cut most junk and/or fatty products from their diet?

Point 5:

Being healthy and living longer does not mean they are happy.

I wonder if there is a survey about who the happiest people are?. I’m willing to bet its Catholics.

 

[andrea3710]

Not following you here, if not for her “prophecies” the SDA’s would cease to exist.

And I still laugh…
Oh you are all so amusing today In my country we did not have much of her books,they had hard times coming to this part of the world,I wonder why…but I will not start another issue here…Well,without her and having much on her teaching I was still SDA . People,that is a miracle,how did that ever happen? Do you actually believe that if you show us that E.White was such and such that the SDA church will fall apart.I will tell you what actually might work. Take the Bible from us and show us that Bible is not God’s word and is not worth much then you may succeed.Even if I would ever leave the church would I think that Catholic was the one to go,it would be like saying to myself that the Earth was flat and in the center of our solar system.But that would be a lie,wouldn’t it?
I will now continue to laugh…

You have not dealt with the “lies” as well as you think have.

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

O do not worry for me I had many right ones,see none of yours yet at least not scripturals,after all I am not the one who celebrates April Fool’s Day:

Oh come on and celebrate!!!

And remember…April Fool’s Day was not made for you, but you are perfect for April Fool’s Day!!!

Now let’s smile and take a deep breath…and you go back and read all those scriptures I provided for you in previous posts and read them this time…and I’m not foolin’

God bless all!!!

 

[djconklin]

Originally Posted by djconklin
According to whom? According to what standard?

The standard of reason and logic.

Okay, I can work with that. Now show a logic table on one of the alleged contradictions.

Ah! the web site that lied to you, eh?

You say tomato I say tomatoe.

Since they have been proven to have lied to you once, how many other things have they said that isn’t true? Since you couldn’;t possibly check all of what they say, how many lies do they get to tell you before you realize that they can’t be trusted? Why trust them at all?

Not quantity. If you had been in an SDA church you would have found that out. It means that Catholics are living up to the light they know; too many SDA’s aren’t.

THAT IS A BUNCH OF DIPLOMATIC BULL.

Well, since we know that too many SDA’s aren’t living up to what they know we know that that is true. So, the only thing you could be saying is that the same thing could be said of Ccatholics as well–which could be true and there’d still be more Catholics in heaven, than SDA’s–so, that’s true too.

Whoever told you that one, lied to you–that’s one reason why I can’t become a Catholic, far too many lies are being told and believed; too many people don’t check to see if it is so. I don’t use her writing at all for theology

.

Oh the self-righteous anger, when it is your institution that dares to label the CC the “whore of Babylon.” Truly I sympathize.

1. I’m not angry at all; and I’m certainly not self-righteous (you don’t get ulcers for that!).
2. The SDA church doesn’t label the CC that way. You were lied to again. Tell your source to keep quiet.
   ===
   How do the quote command: you use the square brackets: ‘’ then the word “quote” and the close with ‘]’. Then you close off what you are quoting with ‘’ /quote ‘]’–without the ’ marks and no spaces.

 

[djconklin]

And now I would like to confess to everyone that djconklin and patrick murebil are one in the same person merely trying to spark dialog on the forums. I am he and he is me!!

On some forums i do have to deal with sock puppets.of course it wasn’t hard when they both had the grammar of a second grader. {<-- that’s a short example}

 

[Patrick_Murebil]

Point 1:

So why didn’t EGW follow her own “prophecies” on not eating meat/animal food products?

Point 2:

Why did she lie about abstaining from meat/animal products?

Point 3:

What makes you think that more people are dying of cancer and such because of meat alone? How about oral contraceptives, do you think that has some link to breast cancer?, and what about cervical cancer, does that have anything to do with the rise in sexual activity? There can be a whole plethora of reasons why people are sicker today in comparison to the past.

Point 4:

If SDAs live longer is it because they have cut most junk and/or fatty products from their diet?

Point 5:

Being healthy and living longer does not mean they are happy.

I wonder if there is a survey about who the happiest people are?. I’m willing to bet its Catholics.

Hi Josie,

I like all of your points…especailly Point 5!!

And one thing I’ve noticed about even the healthiest people…they all die somewhere after the age of 50 and before the age of 100…even SDAs.

But on a happy note…my wife REALLY burned me today on an April Fool’s joke…and while I was the brunt of her “prank”…it was a heck of lot of fun…when I realized it wasn’t really happening!!

So as one of the biggest fools this day, I wish you all a very pleasant and enjoyable evening and suggest that tonight we all (Catholics, SDAs, protestants, and everyone else) pray for each other at least once…all of us reading this thread…for each other’s health, safety, success, and eternal life…and if we do it again tomorrow, we just might begin a new and good habit!!

That’s all folks!!! G’night and God bless all!!!

 

[happilycatholic]

Not really…

Happy April Fool’s Day!!!

I thought that was funny though…we really are two different people.

Patrick

God bless all!!!

It gave me cold chills.

 

[djconklin]

Point 1:

So why didn’t EGW follow her own “prophecies” on not eating meat/animal food products?

As Patrick pointed out, it takes time to learn.

Point 2:

Why did she lie about abstaining from meat/animal products?

She didn’t. What she said has ben mis-read.

Point 3:

What makes you think that more people are dying of cancer and such because of meat alone?

No one said it was.

Point 4:

If SDAs live longer is it because they have cut most junk and/or fatty products from their diet?

That was one of the findings of the study that National Geographic reported on.

Point 5:

Being healthy and living longer does not mean they are happy.

In general tersm that sounds good. But, if you aren’t healthy, you won’t be happy. OTOH, if you are healthy, you are more likely to be happy. A sound body makes a sound mind and all that.

 

[andrea3710]

Well my friend just celebrate it,knock yourself out! I still can’t stop laughing…Have you seen the Walter Veith lately? Maybe he will give us some more issues to discuss,Doug Batchelor is good but Veith is even more spicy and not sure how much spice can you take especially when it comes from a former Catholic. Did you ever give me any Bible texts because your own opinions and ideas stopped being interesting and challenging. If you ever responded on my posts with some Bible verses then I will go and check your previous posts but if you did not tell me, so I will not bother go checking them out and I hope whatever you gave me was not apocrypha.

Oh come on and celebrate!!!

And remember…April Fool’s Day was not made for you, but you are perfect for April Fool’s Day!!!

Now let’s smile and take a deep breath…and you go back and read all those scriptures I provided for you in previous posts and read them this time…and I’m not foolin’

God bless all!!!

 

[happilycatholic]

Hmm, what part of “guidelines” was too hard to comprehend? Also it isn’t part of our fundamental beliefs. Finally, there’s no proof that anything in it supports the claim that we keep the Sabbath differently than what the Bible commands. And it didn’t come out till 1990.

Having a tough time being civlil?

Nope. You?

 

[djconklin]

No one here is commenting on your methods of understanding theology, or whether you use her writings.

See josie’s posts earlier this aftenoon She repeatedly brought it up. And then you went and did it with this:

What no catholic will ever understand is how you can say we follow the Traditions of man and yet you follow EGW.

Now I’m going to say this one more time, please get it this time:

I DO NOT USE THE WRITINGS OF ELLEN G. WHITE!

capeesh?

You can’t separate her from you Church when she’s woven through the thread of the very basic fundemental beliefs you adhere to as an SDA.

And yet when we look at SDA Fundamental Beliefs (adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html) we see it supported solely by Scripture and not EGW. Whom to believe: cold, hard facts or propaganda??

From the evidence on your church’s conference website, you absolutely follow a church that derrives it’s doctrine from her.

As the link clearly shows we do not. Repeatling a lie you have been told doesn’t make it so.

Now I’m upset!

 

[djconklin]

The chair of Moses (legitimate authority) has been given to the seat of Peter according to the Scripture you seem so fond of wanting support from but can’t seem to find.

That’s a long and involved debate that I’m not going to get into.

The point is very simple: neither you, nor HC, cannot find support from Scripture that SDA’s are not keeping the Sabbath.

 

[andrea3710]

Being healthy and living longer does not mean they are happy.

Another good one.Oh boy,are you inspired today.
Personally,I am a very happy person. Do not have to go to some priest to tell me how many Hail Mary will I have to repeat… I do not to worry which priest lacks a female touch so he will “touch” my child. Also I do not have to walk on my knees around some previously appointed things,shrines,mountains…
I will continue later on this happy stuff…

 

[Verisimilitude]

The point is very simple: neither you, nor HC, cannot find support from Scripture that SDA’s are not keeping the Sabbath.

Do you keep it in accordance with what the Church has established? If not then you may be in error on that point but such debate is trivial to the larger point of what authority you use as justification to make the determination in the first place.

Time is a man-made invention. Does the particular day matter as much as having one out of seven days that is reserved for worshipping God regardless if it is Saturday, Sunday or any day? What do you think is more pleasing to God, the correct day worship is performed or the correct form of worship? That is why I referenced this Scripture in post #842 which is relevant:

23"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.

24"You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!

25"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of robbery and self-indulgence.

26"You blind Pharisee, first clean the inside of the cup and of the dish, so that the outside of it may become clean also.

You said:

That’s a long and involved debate that I’m not going to get into.

Just about everything you will ever bring up here will end back at the debate of legitimate authority for without it any conclusion you reach is subject to it.

Why do you reject Mormon or Moslem doctrine- if you do? I would imaging you reject them becuase Joseph Smith and Mohammed lack the legitimate Scriptural authority to make such claims to be valid. It is why I reject them along with the deviations and changes Luther wrought. If you give them some legitimacy as another valid way to reach an understanding of the One God, I suppose it is in order to extend the same legitimacy to yourself allowing for as many pssibilities of the Truth only as a means to accept your own.

On what authority do you claim anything is ‘the right way’ as you see it?

 

[andrea3710]

What makes you think that more people are dying of cancer and such because of meat alone?

If SDAs live longer is it because they have cut most junk and/or fatty products from their diet?

It looks like you need some education. I do not have time to give any lessons so I would advise you if you interested to go and study.Many doctors today are almost quoting E.White when it comes to diet. Week or two ago it was all over the news and media about the red meat. What they said about the red meat caused that our local TV stations stopped giving commercials on scientific data on how the red meat is good and we should eat it thus proving my suspicions-that many industries pay to scientist and media to give false statement so people would buy whatever these people call healthy,on this one they were finally exposed. When something is commercialized too often then one should be suspicious…Milk for an example…it deprives you of calcium more than it gives you but we see so many models with milk traces above their lip…
Cancer is due to destruction of immune system. How you feed and treat each one of your body cells it is how healthy you will be. Person can be obese and still be malnutritioned because he/she eats empty calories…SDA’s have many retreat centers that helped people fight cancer without use of any chemotherapy. Being a nurse and watching what chemotherapy does I would never use it myself,it may help to some but in the most cases it helps only for a short time.
Of course that along with the healthy diet one needs to stay out of stress , medications, alcohol,cigarettes,food additives…etc…Do you know that cancer feeds on sugar? Sugar is not good for use…E.White said that long time ago,doctors say it today…I could go on and on but I will continue hopefully tomorrow.
Person here posted how we SDA’s must be very sad people,but I can tell you how many happy Catholics I have on chemotherapy and they curse God for their fate in every other word.
I have lots of nuns as my patients too but they go to chemo for they are probably not sure in heaven after death,who would know…One would think that if you believe in heaven after death,that he/she would hurry there.

 

[Bill_Pick]

James 1234,

The attacks by the likes of that Doug Batchlor are made from ignorance! These infantile attacks have been made for a long time. Don’t be too upset, just let them motivate you to learn some apologetics. Just let them drive you into the catechism and the Bible.

**I want to reccomend a book you can find on EWTN. It is by Karl Keating. An Apologist. It’s named Catholocism and Fundamentalism or the attack on “Romanism” by "Bible Christians. It cost $17.00. I just got it last week. It gives you many examples of the kind of attacks Protetants make and how to counter them. It is down to earth - not some book writen on a cloud. It will help you. **

I have the book it is very good and a must read for all Cathloics.

 

[happilycatholic]

See josie’s posts earlier this aftenoon She repeatedly brought it up. And then you went and did it with this:

Now I’m going to say this one more time, please get it this time:

I DO NOT USE THE WRITINGS OF ELLEN G. WHITE!

capeesh?

And yet when we look at SDA Fundamental Beliefs (adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html) we see it supported solely by Scripture and not EGW. Whom to believe: cold, hard facts or propaganda??

As the link clearly shows we do not. Repeatling a lie you have been told doesn’t make it so.

Now I’m upset!

Okay, I’m sorry you are upset. But explain how you can say you don’t derive doctrine from her when the fact that your church believes she is a prophet is their basis for claiming they are the remnant church. Are you SDA or aren’t you? If you are SDA you are not only required to believe the 27 Fundementals, you have to sign something that says you do when you are baptized, do you not?

It’s kinda like if you said the catholic church believed in a false prophet and we had some doctrine from a false prophet in our Catechism. It would make it hard for us to deny we follow false prophets. Nor does the Vatican website take quotes from books of false prophets and put them on the website or in the Catechism as guidelines.

EGW outlined Investigative Judgement for you guys from one of her visions. There was no such thing until she pulled some Scripture together to support her vision and to form this doctrine. Now, with all honesty, we as catholics do the same thing. It’s called Sacred Tradition and it’s formulated by Christ and the Apostles through Scripture. It’s not formulated through visions and Scripture through a false prophet.

You can say you separate yourself from her but you can’t. It would be like indulgences being a part of our Catechism and then us trying to deny that it’s a Church doctrine.