downloading music and Burning CDs

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DreadVandal

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I couldn’t find a thread on this (though I’m sure there are some) but I thought that this would be an interesting subject since it does not seem to be straightforward to me.

Let’s suppose that someone is downloading some music, much of it they already own and they just want back up copies. Some of it is very hard to find. They are not downloading entire albums or collections, but mostly hard to find, sometimes no longer being sold, music (for example, rare Elvis-Roy Orbison, Beatles live version “Are you Lonesome Tonight?”) or individual songs that haven’t been on the radio in over 20 years. One is not buying any bootleging services but merely downloading mp3s that can be found on the Internet.

Is such an act morally wrong? If it is: Is it a mortal sin of theft or a venial sin?
 
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DreadVandal:
I couldn’t find a thread on this (though I’m sure there are some) but I thought that this would be an interesting subject since it does not seem to be straightforward to me.

Let’s suppose that someone is downloading some music, much of it they already own and they just want back up copies. Some of it is very hard to find. They are not downloading entire albums or collections, but mostly hard to find, sometimes no longer being sold, music (for example, rare Elvis-Roy Orbison, Beatles live version “Are you Lonesome Tonight?”) or individual songs that haven’t been on the radio in over 20 years. One is not buying any bootleging services but merely downloading mp3s that can be found on the Internet.

Is such an act morally wrong? If it is: Is it a mortal sin of theft or a venial sin?
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With regard to downloading songs you already own, that doesn’t make sense. Why would you do that if you already have them and its perfectly legal for you to copy songs from the cd’s you bought onto cd’s either as backup or making compilation cd’s.

As for downloading songs in general there have been other threads but I can’t recollect any clear answers. First thought would be its theft and therefore wrong but it seems in some countries it might not actually be illegal to download so I guess you would need to know the laws relating to that in each country.
 
Please don’t tell me that LimeWire is a kin to Internet porn??? :confused:
 
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LeahInancsi:
Please don’t tell me that LimeWire is a kin to Internet porn??? :confused:
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Well, if it constiitutes stealing then it is likely mortal sin. Any mortal sin will throw you into hell, whether its theft or sexual in nature. So, if downloading music is a sin, is it a mortal sin? And would it be mortal in the circumstances I described? Sometimes, I think its impossible to avoid mortal sin.
 
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DreadVandal:
Well, if it constiitutes stealing then it is likely mortal sin. Any mortal sin will throw you into hell, whether its theft or sexual in nature. So, if downloading music is a sin, is it a mortal sin? And would it be mortal in the circumstances I described? Sometimes, I think its impossible to avoid mortal sin.
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Seriously, I don’t know that it is actually stealing. I used LimeWire several years ago to download individual songs/recordings that other people had purchased and put on the Internet to share with others. This was prior to the Napster court ruling.

Recently, when I purchased an iPod, I looked up my old friend LimeWire. In the process of searching for it, I read (I don’t remember where) that sharing or downloading individual “files” was not illegal. As I recall, Napster was allowing people to download entire albums of mint quality.

Also, with a paid subscription to Napster, iTunes, Rhapsody, etc. an individual can download every song on the website to their computer, but must purchase each track for $.89-$.99 to move the track from the computer to an iPod or burn it to a CD. LimeWire is free, but you also have no assurance of the quality or validity of the track/file you receive.

LimeWire is no secret and readily available on the Internet. I trust that if downloading files from LimeWire is illegal, it will be pulled from the Internet. The laws are in place to do so.

Conclusion, since I don’t believe it is a sin, it isn’t until I learn otherwise. I’m a faithful viewer of CNN and I’m sure that I will hear about the unlawful state of LimeWire and will cease to download files from that website.
 
While on this subject, how is “stealing” determined?

As a 50 year old American and a new Catholic, I’m under the impression that secular law defines stealing in a situation as discussed in this thread.
 
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LeahInancsi:
Seriously, I don’t know that it is actually stealing. I used LimeWire several years ago to download individual songs/recordings that other people had purchased and put on the Internet to share with others. This was prior to the Napster court ruling.

Recently, when I purchased an iPod, I looked up my old friend LimeWire. In the process of searching for it, I read (I don’t remember where) that sharing or downloading individual “files” was not illegal. As I recall, Napster was allowing people to download entire albums of mint quality.

Also, with a paid subscription to Napster, iTunes, Rhapsody, etc. an individual can download every song on the website to their computer, but must purchase each track for $.89-$.99 to move the track from the computer to an iPod or burn it to a CD. LimeWire is free, but you also have no assurance of the quality or validity of the track/file you receive.

LimeWire is no secret and readily available on the Internet. I trust that if downloading files from LimeWire is illegal, it will be pulled from the Internet. The laws are in place to do so.

Conclusion, since I don’t believe it is a sin, it isn’t until I learn otherwise. I’m a faithful viewer of CNN and I’m sure that I will hear about the unlawful state of LimeWire and will cease to download files from that website.
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I agree with you. I’m not convinced that it is a sin either. I’m not convinced that it is stealing. Though I’m also not convinced that it is not. That is why I made this thread. It seems that there is a great deal of moral and legal ambiguity. BTW, I just went to confession and asked the priest about all of this and he thought that simply downloading music was not, in itself a sin, especially if its something that companies are not really that interested in collecting royalties. Of course, priests are sometimes wrong.
 
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LeahInancsi:
While on this subject, how is “stealing” determined?

As a 50 year old American and a new Catholic, I’m under the impression that secular law defines stealing in a situation as discussed in this thread.
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before i had any real money, i had a problem. i owned alot of CD’s, but i had no way to “rip” them (translate them into mp3s) so i could listen to them on my computer or mp3 player.

“ripping” software wasnt always free, and the really good kind was expensive. so i found what seemed like a good solution.

i only downloaded songs i already owned on CD, but didnt have the software to make them into mp3 at 256 kilobits\sec (VERY good quality mp3). i found users that had very very good quality mp3s of albums i had, and downloaded them.

so in essence, all i did was let someone else translate a CD into an mp3 for me. i didnt steal because i already owned them. i just had a lousy computer that might have taken days and days to translate an album. but i did have access to fast college LAN ethernet.

now, i ALWAYS ALWAYS backup ANY DVD i have. i dont care who says it is “illegal”, when you own 2 dobermans, copyright laws dont apply because they like to chew new shiny things. am i “stealing”? no. am i being practical? YES. own some dobermans for a while, and then tell me its still wrong to backup your own DVDs.
 
I know you can upload songs onto an ipod from cds through itunes even if you don’t own the cd. Itunes is pirfectly leagle and free. You can upload the songs as many times as you want and on to as many ipods as you want. It may be a good idea to purchase cds on ebay, put them on your ipod and than sell them on ebay again. I used to use limewire,kazza and napster and they all messed up my pc to the point where it wasn’t worth it.

As for it being a serious sin I doubt it.I don’t believe that record companies are entitled to money every time I hear a song. A lot of the music that the record companies produce is pure filth anyway, so I think they’re commiting more sin than people who download songs. Producing violent, pornographic hiphop records can’t be a good thing in the eyes of God IMO.

What people have to remember is that a lot of critics are saying that music companies are not losing money because of piracy, but because they no longer make good music. The music I got from my fridend was all over 10 years old. The record companies actually waste money in going after online pirates. They should use that money to find the next Elvis or Beatles, but I doubt they will do so.
 
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matt1985:
I know you can upload songs onto an ipod from cds through itunes even if you don’t own the cd. Itunes is pirfectly leagle and free. You can upload the songs as many times as you want and on to as many ipods as you want. It may be a good idea to purchase cds on ebay, put them on your ipod and than sell them on ebay again. I used to use limewire,kazza and napster and they all messed up my pc to the point where it wasn’t worth it.
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In my post, I was referring to iTunes, the website where you can by music tracks for about $.99/each. I think what you are referring to is the iTunes software that is the vehicle used to load music onto your iPod. In the case I’n thinking you described above, you have purchased a license along with the CD that you are using to upload music to your from your CD to the computer to the iPod.

That is completely legal because you have purchased a license. You’re not download music from the Internet.

The eBay idea is a good. I’m trying to collect music from the 50’s, 60’s and 70’s that I grew up with. I’m not sure they would have much resale value on eBay or if they are even available for purchase. Kazza is similar to LimeWire. I haven’t used Kazza in several years.
 
If you are making a backup copy, I would assume you have the originals on hand.

Couldn’t you simply rip the originals to a backup folder and be done with it?
Why do you need to download anything at all?

:twocents:

Z
 
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vz71:
If you are making a backup copy, I would assume you have the originals on hand.

Couldn’t you simply rip the originals to a backup folder and be done with it?
Why do you need to download anything at all?

:twocents:

Z
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i was referring to a time when ripping software was only musicmatch jukebox, and it was 100$ to buy. my computer would have taken days and days to do an entire album anyway, so it was much faster to download mp3s on 2 megabit ethernet. only took about 5 minutes.
 
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BioCatholic:
i was referring to a time when ripping software was only musicmatch jukebox, and it was 100$ to buy. my computer would have taken days and days to do an entire album anyway, so it was much faster to download mp3s on 2 megabit ethernet. only took about 5 minutes.
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How long ago was this?

I have been using CDEX to rip CD’s for years now.
Of course, given that the tech exists today to rip any music CD, the point is now moot isn’t it? You can just rip your backups and be done with it.

:twocents:

Z
 
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LeahInancsi:
Seriously, I don’t know that it is actually stealing. I used LimeWire several years ago to download individual songs/recordings that other people had purchased and put on the Internet to share with others. This was prior to the Napster court ruling.

Recently, when I purchased an iPod, I looked up my old friend LimeWire. In the process of searching for it, I read (I don’t remember where) that sharing or downloading individual “files” was not illegal. As I recall, Napster was allowing people to download entire albums of mint quality.

Also, with a paid subscription to Napster, iTunes, Rhapsody, etc. an individual can download every song on the website to their computer, but must purchase each track for $.89-$.99 to move the track from the computer to an iPod or burn it to a CD. LimeWire is free, but you also have no assurance of the quality or validity of the track/file you receive.

LimeWire is no secret and readily available on the Internet. I trust that if downloading files from LimeWire is illegal, it will be pulled from the Internet. The laws are in place to do so.

Conclusion, since I don’t believe it is a sin, it isn’t until I learn otherwise. I’m a faithful viewer of CNN and I’m sure that I will hear about the unlawful state of LimeWire and will cease to download files from that website.
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For those sites in which you need to pay a royalties fee for downloading the song, I see no sin involved.
But for the free download, there is a sin involved.

:twocents:

Z
 
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vz71:
For those sites in which you need to pay a royalties fee for downloading the song, I see no sin involved.
But for the free download, there is a sin involved.

:twocents:

Z
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Really? Free downloads a sin, like Seven Sorrows? :rolleyes:
 
Hardly.

There are numerous free downloads that would be perfectly fine to download and listen to all you want.

But (as is the case with most of the music industry in America) the majority of the music available for free to download is NOT intended for that purpose. There are no royalties being paid for the music, and it IS, in fact, theft.

There is a reason these artists charge money for their goods. To circumvent that is stealing.

I am sure plenty of arguments can be made concerning the money already made by the artists, or the problematic and punitive practices of the record industry, or even illegal attempts by the record industry to squash file sharing. But ultimately when you take something that is not yours without paying for it, it is theft.

Call a spade a spade.

:twocents:

Z
 
The following link is to an interesting article on the subject:

infoworld.com/articles/op/xml/01/05/04/010504opethics.html

The author distinguishes between downloading a couple of songs and outright ripping entire CDs. Also, the author shows that it is not a straightforward case that downloading a couple of songs will harm the record company & artist’s interests. In fact, it might help their interests.

Here are some other thoughts. I record a television show on my VCR that I want a friend to see and then I show it to them or give them the tape to watch. Is that stealing? I use a casette recording and record songs I hear off the radio so I can listen to them later. Is that stealing?

Also, there is such a thing as the fair use doctrine under copyright law. The fair use doctrine allows a person to make a copy of part of a work for educational and research purposes. I photocopy sections of books and journal articles all the time for my research. If a music professor wants to sample some different popular music for a class, is downloading individual songs illegal? Is it immoral? Here’s one more scenario. A song or CD (or video game even) is no longer available for sale anywhere. The record company is not interested in republishing it. Someone happens to have a file with some songs from the CD (or happens to have a copy of the old game) online and is sharing it for free (not making any money off it). Is this illegal? What interests of the companies and artists have been violated if they aren’t even interested in selling it anymore?

I think its all really a very gray area myself. I think it is clearly the case that burning music in order to sell bootleg copies is illegal and immoral. Downloading free copyrighted music may be technically illegal but that does not mean that it is always immoral. Taking someone else’s allergy medication may also be illegal, but there may be a situation in which you need that medication without having time and money to go get a prescription. Is that immoral? I’ve had very sound confessors tell me that it isn’t.
 
One final thought I have is this: Is it really stealing to copy something that someone else has? I agree that it can be but is it always the case? If someone had the technology to make an instant copy of my house and set in on their land for their use, would that be stealing? Would it be a violation of either my rights or the architect’s rights or the real estate companies rights? Perhaps, I don’t know. Just something to ponder.
 
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DreadVandal:
The author distinguishes between downloading a couple of songs and outright ripping entire CDs. Also, the author shows that it is not a straightforward case that downloading a couple of songs will harm the record company & artist’s interests. In fact, it might help their interests…
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Whether or not it is in the record companies interests, the record companies all make it clear that they do not want their music downloaded without the proper royalties paid.

To circumvent that is still theft.

Is there a difference in downloading a song or two as compared to whole CD’s? Yes. The difference in the amount stolen.

We are not talking about harm done here, harm done does not define sin. If someone were to steal a book from my library, I may never know, there was no harm done to me, I have hundreds of books and will never miss it. Chances are that I have a couple of extra copies. However, if you have stolen a book, you stole the book. Harm done or not, the sin remains.

Where the artist has given his consent to allow for free downloads, enjoy. It is free (both of sin and monetary cost).
But when the artist has not given the consent, or worse, has enacted measures to prevent this activity, the downloading of the material is theft.
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DreadVandal:
One final thought I have is this: Is it really stealing to copy something that someone else has? I agree that it can be but is it always the case? If someone had the technology to make an instant copy of my house and set in on their land for their use, would that be stealing? Would it be a violation of either my rights or the architect’s rights or the real estate companies rights? Perhaps, I don’t know. Just something to ponder…
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Material goods do not lend themselves to the same treatment as data. Plagiarism can readily take place with data; it cannot take place in material. If someone were to simply copy a house plagiarism would not apply. There is much more to the house then just the information necessary to build it. When you have a house built, you pay for materials, workmanship, plumbing, etc. Not just blueprints.
Data, however, is simply data.
 
Just finished the article, and does not appear the article really applies.
The author addresses only whether or not there has been harm done. But harm done is not the only consideration for whether or not a sin has been commited.
 
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