Dr. Charles Stanley exclaimed: Purgatory is false!

[GaryTaylor]

Purgatory is Latin, it means purification/purge

 

[Aramis]

Is purgatory a form of being punished for the sins remaining after death, a form of purifying with fire? I guess I’m not clear on how the purification process works in this church doctrine.

Purgatorial fire is the normative description of it, but the dogmatic declaration is worded without the reference to fire.

Purgatory is a place or state of continued purification of the soul after the death of the body of those who are eventually to be admitted to heaven, and the duration is based upon how much repentance and mortification one put oneself through in life.

It has several different expressions about it - the Roman Rite uses a description of purgatory as a cleansing fire; the byzantine often uses the term theosis as including the dogmatic purgatory (as well as the latin “divinization” - the becoming more like God so that one will be able to survive in God’s presence face to face), and the journey of theosis has multiple metaphors.

The dogma isn’t the cleansing fire, merely the cleansing.

 

[aspirant]

1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

Exactly: Purification in Christ from all unrighteousness (whether in this life or through purgation after death) is for those who have already received forgiveness of their sins.

That’s why Stanley was wrong to call purgatory a “second chance.” Purgatory is for folks already forgiven and bound for heaven.
"Stanley:

A great many people believe falsely in purgatory—a miserable place where people supposedly go after death.

It’s already been mentioned that “fire” is not part of the dogmatic definition of purgatory. Neither, for that matter, is “place”: we are not required to think of purgatory as a location.

“Miserable,” similarly, is not part of the dogmatic definition. “Pain” is mentioned in the definition, but pain is not necessarily miserable. I experience some physical pain when the phlebotomist takes my blood donation, for example, but my personal experience of giving blood is joyful rather than miserable. I also experience a kind of psychological pain when I feel conviction and confess my sins to God, but this too is a profoundly joyful rather than miserable experience for me.

Likewise the “pain” of being purified in Christ: St. Catherine of Genoa believed “the least vision {the souls being purged} have of God outweighs all woes and all joys that can be conceived” and “apart from the happiness of the saints in heaven… there is no joy comparable to that of the souls in purgatory” and “there is no peace to be compared with that of the souls in purgatory, save that of the saints in paradise, and this peace is ever augmented by the in-flowing of God into these souls, which increases in proportion as the impediments to it are removed.”

Stanley:

In order to advance to heaven, a person supposedly must either suffer long enough to make restitution for his or her sins

Nor is it specified in Catholic dogma that purification after death (for any who may need it) lasts for any particular amount of time: it may take time or it may be instantaneous-- the only certainty with regard to time is that it is finite and not eternal.

Stanley:

the very idea of a second route to heaven runs counter to God’s redemptive plan.

Catholics agree with this wholeheartedly: Jesus Christ is the only Way. Purification from sin, whether in this life or after death, occurs only in Jesus Christ.

Stanley:

If there is a place where people can go to suffer for their own sins—in other words, pay their own penalty—then God sending His Son to die makes no sense.

Even if I bought into Stanley’s soteriology, he has profoundly misunderstood the nature of purification. It is not people “paying their own penalty.” It is Christ cleansing us of all unrighteousness and its consequences, applying to each of us the benefits of his saving actions.

Stanley:

Nowhere in scripture do we find any mention of a detour into misery where we “earn” a pass into heaven.

Nor do any of us believe in such a thing.

Stanley:

Those who reject Christ get no second chance after death.

Catholics believe purgatory is for “souls of those who depart this life with true repentance and in the love of God.”

Stanley:

But whoever receives salvation is completely forgiven of all sin and guaranteed an eternity with Him.

Yep. That doesn’t contradict what Catholics believe about purification.

There is a fire… The catholic church takes it to be a personal painful punishment that is to be endured and may last a long long time

Just to repeat: the dogmatic definition does not include any reference to fire or to time.

nor is it a painful experience. Embaressing to stand there before Jesus, with His scars, oh, absolutley.

I don’t know whether anyone will experience embarrassment, but I do think embarrassment qualifies as a kind of pain.

 

[Faithdancer]

:bounce:

JustaServant exclaimed: Charles Stanley is false!

 

[GaryTaylor]

have been washed away byt the sacrifice on the Cross.

Everyone already agree’d. Moving past…

We’re here on earth. How are the sins forgiven you accumulate here? Looking for the Bible verse where Jesus stated; “Pray to Me and your sins are forgiven.” Those sins are the topic of concern. Not the redemption. And I can’t find the verse.

Do you pray for the dead with friends and family who have passed? Why would you do that? They’re already saved, they wouldn’t need your prayer. What about the sick and dying? They need your prayer? Why would they need your prayer?

 

[pnewton]

hello this is what Dr.stanley said

READ | 2 Corinthians 5:1-9

A great many people believe falsely in purgatory—a miserable place where people supposedly go after death. In order to advance to heaven, a person supposedly must either suffer long enough to make restitution for his or her sins or be prayed out by loved ones still living. The doctrine is an unbiblical lie, because purgatory is a thinly veiled second chance for people to get into heaven.

His statement shows one of two things. Either he does not properly understand the Catholic understanding of Purgatory, or he chooses to not properly represent it. His understanding of the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory is false. It must be. There is no second chance in Purgatory. Everyone there will be with Christ in Heaven.

I submit that his fallacy lies in that he goes to an authority beyond Scripture, namely, he deems his Table of Contents in his pretty modern Bible as infallible when it omits Maccabbees.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Scripture rules.

Especially when they are read in their entirety and under the authoritative guidance of Christ’s Church.

 

[Miriam1947]

Is purgatory a form of being punished for the sins remaining after death, a form of purifying with fire? I guess I’m not clear on how the purification process works in this church doctrine.

It’s not a punishment. All souls in Purgatory will go to heaven but since nothing unclean can enter heaven, the soul undergoes purification. Just making sure any residual sin is cleaned up.

If I can’t go straight to heaven, then I welcome a stay in Purgatory.

 

[Doxiemom]

It’s not called the Trinity in scripture either, nor is it explicitly written about as it is portrayed in Christianity, but I’m sure you would acknowledge it as it is described by the Catholic Church.

That is different. Surely Jesus referred to, in plain reading of Scripture, “The Father, The Son, And The Holy Spirit”. man gave this the tile of “The Trinity”… …Scripture did not give this concept, which is not a place, but a concept , beyond our understanding, a name. We gave it a name .It is almost a universally accepted concept by nearly all Christians.

However, The Judgement Seat of Christ, is named in Scripture. It is fully described and we are told what happens there. It is our Judgement. “For man is appointed once to die, and then the Judgement”.

The Catholic Church renamed this place as Purgatory and applied qualities to the purging as not what is in the plain test of Scripture. I do not doubt for one minute that they feel they have wisdom and tradition on their side. Not do I discourage catholics to ever doubt their catachism. Such happenings belong after great and deep consultations with your priest.

But, whether you want it or not, there are learned men and women out there, some of whom were never subject to the catholic church “authority” who read Scripture and believe what it says as it is Written.

 

[GaryTaylor]

That is different. Surely Jesus referred to, in plain reading of Scripture, “The Father, The Son, And The Holy Spirit”. man gave this the tile of “The Trinity”… …Scripture did not give this concept, which is not a place, but a concept , beyond our understanding, a name. We gave it a name .It is almost a universally accepted concept by nearly all Christians.

However, The Judgement Seat of Christ, is named in Scripture. It is fully described and we are told what happens there. It is our Judgement. “For man is appointed once to die, and then the Judgement”.

The Catholic Church renamed this place as Purgatory and applied qualities to the purging as not what is in the plain test of Scripture. I do not doubt for one minute that they feel they have wisdom and tradition on their side. Not do I discourage catholics to ever doubt their catachism. Such happenings belong after great and deep consultations with your priest.

But, whether you want it or not, there are learned men and women out there, some of whom were never subject to the catholic church “authority” who read Scripture and believe what it says as it is Written.

Scripture did not give us the definition of the Trinity. Man did and through revelation from God which preceded mans intellect and will. The Bible gave us contemplation and Faith, and that eye on God gave man the Grace.

“He will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire” (1 Cor 3:15).

“In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin” (2 Macc. 12).

Didn’t give us the definition here either. Arrives though contemplation which preceded mans intellect and will. Prayer for the dead existed a very long time before the codification of the Bible. Very much a part of the very long history of Christianity.

Why pray for those in hell who are not leaving, or for the those in heaven who need no prayer, you need theirs?

 

[Isaiah45_9]

man gave this the tile of “The Trinity”… …

A Man wrote this. He was called Matthew.

A group of many man met in Councils and with the help of the Holy Spirit they helped YOU and others understand that what this man, named Matthew, had written was inspired by the Holy Spirit and included in Scriptures, which by the way is a collection of writings by many man.

So… without man… you would not be able to know what Scriptures are.

This post was written by man as well As this website was created by man, as the keyboard you use to type was made by man. And the house/apartment you live in was also made by man… Anyways, you get what I mean.

Love one another includes man as well

 

[Stephanie_Pauls]

This morning I was flipping through the channels and came across De. Charles Stanley (Baptist minister) who was saying the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory is false. More important,what caught my attention is when he stated,the doctrine makes Christ death on the cross null or that it was not enough? WRONG!

It never shocks me to hear Protestants totally misunderstand the doctrine and one of the biggest reason is due to their interpretation of salvation.

Well then maybe Jesus didn’t preach to the souls in prison like the epistle of Peter said.:

 

[livingwordunity]

This morning I was flipping through the channels and came across De. Charles Stanley (Baptist minister) who was saying the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory is false. More important,what caught my attention is when he stated,the doctrine makes Christ death on the cross null or that it was not enough? WRONG!

It never shocks me to hear Protestants totally misunderstand the doctrine and one of the biggest reason is due to their interpretation of salvation.

I would bet that he can’t explain the purpose of suffering in this life and why no one can avoid it. The answer is that suffering, taken with the right attitude, purifies us and makes us humble. Since pride merited the fall of Satan and the other fallen angels, it logically follows that humility being the direct opposite virtue of pride would be the chief virtue that we all must have to enter into Heaven. No one in their right mind will deny the fact that the world is full of suffering and pain. So our Purgatory starts the moment we enter into this world and continues after we leave it if we die in friendship with God but still need more purification. I believe that Purgatory/suffering is real because I see it throughout the world.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I would bet that he can’t explain the purpose of suffering in this life and why no one can avoid it. The answer is that suffering, taken with the right attitude, purifies us and makes us humble. Since pride merited the fall of Satan and the other fallen angels, it logically follows that humility being the direct opposite virtue of pride would be the chief virtue that we all must have to enter into Heaven. No one in their right mind will deny the fact that the world is full of suffering and pain. So our Purgatory starts the moment we enter into this world and continues after we leave it if we die in friendship with God but still need more purification. I believe that Purgatory/suffering is real because I see it throughout the world.

Amen, thus the saying; Blessed are those who take their purgatory on earth. Total different contemplative mind-set.

 

[aspirant]

Prayer for the dead existed a very long time before the codification of the Bible. Very much a part of the very long history of Christianity.

And of Judaism. For example:

O G-d, full of mercy, Who dwells on high,
grant proper rest on the wings of the Divine Presence -

in the lofty levels of the holy and the pure ones,
who shine like the glow of the firmament -

for the soul of {NAME}
who has gone on to his world,

because, without making a vow,
I will contribute to charity in remembrance of his soul.

May his resting place be in the Garden of Eden -

therefore may the Master of Mercy
shelter him in the shelter of His wings for Eternity,
and may He bind his soul in the Bond of Life.

Hashem is his heritage,
and may he repose in peace on his resting place.

Now let us respond: Amen.

 

[Nicea325]

hello this is what Dr.stanley said

READ | 2 Corinthians 5:1-9

A great many people believe falsely in purgatory—a miserable place where people supposedly go after death. In order to advance to heaven, a person supposedly must either suffer long enough to make restitution for his or her sins or be prayed out by loved ones still living. The doctrine is an unbiblical lie, because purgatory is a thinly veiled second chance for people to get into heaven.

Wrong Dr. Stanley! Purgatory is not a place,but moreover a condition. Wrong! The doctrine is not an unbiblical lie,but a biblical truth you apprarently deny without taking the time to learn about it.

There is not a single verse with which to defend the false theology of purgatory.

WRONG again! Please do not allow me to put you in check with ample of verses. Oh by the way, your Bible lacks Maccabees for starters.

In fact, the very idea of a second route to heaven runs counter to God’s redemptive plan. Jesus Christ was the substitute for you and me, and His death paid our sin-debt. He obtained our eternal redemption with His blood (Heb. 9:12). If there is a place where people can go to suffer for their own sins—in other words, pay their own penalty—then God sending His Son to die makes no sense.

No Dr. Charles. You really ought to stop presenting your opinons and distorted views of Purgatory.

In John 14:2, Jesus told the disciples that He was going away to prepare a place for His followers. Nowhere in scripture do we find any mention of a detour into misery where we “earn” a pass into heaven. The Bible says that believers are either at home in the body, or absent from it and present with the Lord. There is simply no in-between stopover.

According to Charles Stanley’s Baptist intepretation,not according to the Son of God. Care to rebuke God…Mr. Charles?

I respect the right to believe as one chooses.

Yet your comments say otherwise.

However, I have a responsibility to present biblical truth.

Then you also have a responsibility to present it accurately and not all distorted. By the way, who ever said your presentations are infallible?

Those who reject Christ get no second chance after death. They are eternally separated from God. But whoever receives salvation is completely forgiven of all sin and guaranteed an eternity with Him.

Sorry,but the OSAS is BOGUS!

 

[JamesCaruso]

Sorry,but the OSAS is BOGUS!

Ya mean if I get saved I can’t go out and sin all I want? :doh2:

 

[Doxiemom]

So do we agree then there is a period of purification after death before entering heaven? We just disagree on the particulars of what that may entail, am I understanding you correctly? That’s what I got out of your post but I hope I’m not misrepresenting you.

I believe it might actually be a pretty painful experience. But a good painful if you know what I mean. It’s painful even in this life to learn how to detach myself from things that keep me from God, I don’t see any reason why that would not happen in the afterlife if I still haven’t learned to love Him fully.

But also it’s sort of like when you’re finally exposed for who you really are to someone you love, with your warts and all. There is a sort of pain involved in that, at least it’s certainly not pleasant! But like I said, it’s sort of a bittersweet pain, because now you don’t have to pretend.

I hope that made sense, I’m pretty bad at explaining sometimes.

But I think you should know the Church doesn’t actually have any official teaching on what purgatory is like, only that it exists. So perhaps we’re not in as much of a disagreement as it might seem!

we agree enough . Our difference would be on the flames as punishment. I would say that all is exposed, under the loving eyes of Jesus.

 

[pnewton]

we agree enough . Our difference would be on the flames as punishment. I would say that all is exposed, under the loving eyes of Jesus.

One does not need to believe in flames, at least physical flames. Fire has always been a metaphor for purification. The vision of Jesus in Revelation uses a simile of fire and a furnace to describe Jesus. What ever is this “flame” be comforted that this is where we see and know the presence of our loving God. If anything, in Purgatory, or whatever one calls the purification to enter Heaven, we will more fully know the love and mercy of God than we do now.

Perhaps for some the hardest part may be forgiving ourselves and accepting that infinite mercy and grace.

 

[Reuben_J]

Perhaps to avoid confusion, Catholic’s purgatory is a state of purification before one’s enters heaven.

It is not a punishment or literal fire, we do not know that and we do not need to.

What we need to know that nothing unclean will enter heaven. We are made clean by the sacrifice of Jesus if we repent. For some of us, we may never repent enough; there is always that small weaknesses, imperfection and bad habit that we have never let go but at the same time still believe in the redemption of the Lord. For that we need to be purified after life. It would be such a cruel thing to send us to hell, wouldn’t it?

For those of us who are much better and being perfect, they will go straight to heaven.