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JamesCaruso
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Once a priest explained that Purgatory is exactly the same as Hell except for the fact that one does not stay there for eternity. Do you, or does anyone, have a comment on this?
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berk60
Guest
If you can’t be purified enough here on earth what makes you think that you can in purgatory?Perhaps to avoid confusion, Catholic’s purgatory is a state of purification before one’s enters heaven.
It is not a punishment or literal fire, we do not know that and we do not need to.
What we need to know that nothing unclean will enter heaven. We are made clean by the sacrifice of Jesus if we repent. For some of us, we may never repent enough; there is always that small weaknesses, imperfection and bad habit that we have never let go but at the same time still believe in the redemption of the Lord. For that we need to be purified after life. It would be such a cruel thing to send us to hell, wouldn’t it?
For those of us who are much better and being perfect, they will go straight to heaven.
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pnewton
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I will only say that the nature of Purgatory is not doctrine, anymore than the existence of Limbo. Let us go to the norm.
Note that the Catechism says “entirely different,” not “exactly the same.” Note also that it refers to a cleansing fire. Jesus is described in Revelation as having feet like “bronze glowing in a furnace.”
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pnewton
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Loss of sinful flesh. More direct understanding and presence of God. I would rather ask if you can’t be purified here on earth what would make you think you can enter Heaven, as nothing unclean can enter?
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Aramis
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Standard Byzantine Theology. Accepted by Rome, but not required by Rome to be believed.
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Aramis
Guest
that even the Jews pray for the dead, and Maccabes says we should, for it is good for them.
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SteveVH
Guest
I’m not aware that is a Catholic belief at all. In purgatory we receive certain consolations along with pain we feel (fire) when we realize how we have offended God by our sins. In addition there is the knowledge and hope that one will be united with God. All of this is completely absent in hell; no consolations and no hope.
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aspirant
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Given what hell is, I don’t think that particular claim makes sense.
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JamesCaruso
Guest
How many people do you know who could forthwith immediately upon death enter into the holiest of holies, the place where not even the slightest imperfection can exist, where the smallest of sin seems black as tar and brings with it the most horrific stench, the place we call heaven where the Most High resides? I had a friend who had lunch with Mother Teresa. She confided in him that because of all the talk about her being a saint, she feared that when she died no one would pray for her, assuming that she went straight to heaven. It may only take a short time to burn off all those imperfections, in a manner of speaking, but no one, except the purest of souls can enter the Presence of God. It’s not a punishment; it’s just the way things are, like the sky is blue, and the grass is green.
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TimothyH
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I have seen him in person. He is a great pastor and a wonderful orator.JustaServant exclaimed: Charles Stanley is false!
He just makes some theological mistakes, that’s all.
He would make a fine Catholic.
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JamesCaruso
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Only the sense of hell being irrevocable does not make sense. The same fires that torment a soul in hell, purify a soul on their way to heaven. Hell is purification without end, since the person is eternally decided in favor of sin. Purgatory is purification with an end in sight, since the person has eternally decided in favor of righteousness. The saints have been known to say that one day in Purgatory is worse that a lifetime of suffering on earth. I’ll try to look up a quote if you need it.
If you assume free will after death, and I don’t know what the theologians say of this, there are two mysteries: One mystery is how a soul in hell can be so committed to sin that they will never relinquish it in spite of the punishment inflicted. The other mystery is how a soul in heaven can be so in love with God that they can never for all eternity decide to commit the slightest of sins. It could be my premise is wrong, and free will ends at death-- I don’t know.
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JamesCaruso
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Well, that’s exactly what I meant. By the same, I meant the same fires. The fact that it is not forever makes all the difference, and the fact that others can pray for your advancement into heaven does, as well. Thank you for your clarification and amplification.
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JamesCaruso
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Think of it as the same fires, purifying the one, tormenting the other.
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berk60
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You just answered that question when you said,“loss of sinful flesh”.
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aspirant
Guest
Though the imagery of fire is employed for both, hell and purgatory are not defined as fires. Hell is self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed. Purgatory is purification for those open to God, but still imperfectly.
I think identifying the two only makes sense if we’re speaking of them metaphorically. Purgatory is not, like hell, a refusal of God’s love.
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SteveVH
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Yeah, I’m not even sure the “fire” is the same. The pain of the “fire” in purgatory is the full knowledge of how offensive our sins are to God and how we have hurt him, together with the longing to be one with Him. The pain of “fire” in hell is the complete loss of all hope; the knowledge that one has chosen for eternity a life without God; a life without Love; the loss of eternal happiness. In trying to express profound spiritual realities with human language we will always come up short.
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Nicea325
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So in other words: One will NEVER sin at all on earth after one accepts Jesus?
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JamesCaruso
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I am speaking of them metaphorically. What sensations we will experience in the physical realm, we do indeed receive our bodies back at the end of time, I cannot tell you, only what I hear from the saints who may have envisioned Purgatory and Hell either metaphorically, or in some physical manifestation, such as when angels are seen as if having bodies. I tend to think the latter. We can’t see souls, but God can make them visible after a fashion if you will. I am way out on a limb, relying entirely on the saints and the Holy Scriptures, neither of which I am expert in, but I have no reason to doubt either. I can imagine that just as sin brought physical suffering and death into the world, so it remains only more so in the place where unrepentant sinners are cast. I submit, also, that if the prospect of physical pain is abhorrent to you, I believe the mental anguish of Purgatory and Hell are even more horrifying, save that in the first case there is hope, which keeps us from despairing. When seen with clear vision, and when compared with the holiness of God whom we want to spend eternity with, our smallest imperfection is odious beyond description. It’s easy (I’m not saying you) to make light of our sins here on earth, but when seen in the light of Reality they will make us faint with grief,Though the imagery of fire is employed for both, hell and purgatory are not defined as fires. Hell is self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed. Purgatory is purification for those open to God, but still imperfectly.
I think identifying the two only makes sense if we’re speaking of them metaphorically. Purgatory is not, like hell, a refusal of God’s love.
I just took the dog out. I had to pick up his “business” on the way home in a plastic bag. The thought occurred to me that compared to my sins, the odor of that stuff was so pleasing that the world’s finest perfume could be manufactured from it. That is how I view our sins-- horribly odious and preventing us from seeing God until they are completely eradicated from our existence. If it is difficult make up for our sins here on earth, how much more difficult do you imagine it might be in Purgatory where we cannot pray for ourselves and the only help we get is from others who remember us? I think Purgatory is a lot more than wiping our feet on the mat before we enter the house. We should take elimination of sin from our lives very seriously in this life, and not settle for just getting by. I guarantee you it is far easier here than there-- and how many think it’s easy here?
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berk60
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No, I said if you can’t be purified here on earth-( i.e. we continue to sin up to the day we die) then what makes you think we will be any different in purgatory? There is a change that takes place after we die, purgatory or not!
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berk60
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Why was it good for them? It says that the fallen soldeiers were found wearing small images of the gods worshiped in Jamnia. Judas in his firm and devout conviction that all of God’s faithful people would receive a wonderful reward, Judas made provision for a sin offering to set free from their sin those who had died.
So we know that these people were saved but they committed a grave sin of wearing images that weren’t of the true God. Judas did this so they wouldn’t lost their reward at the Bema seat judgement for their sin.
Judas didn’t pray to get them out of purgatory because they weren’t there, he pray not to count this sin against them so they wouldn’t lose any eternal rewards.
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