Dr. Charles Stanley exclaimed: Purgatory is false!

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I remember reading in the Bible about the thief who was on a cross next to Jesus. He accepted him as his savior then and there. Jesus told him, “This day you will be with me in Paradise.” My question is, does this mean purgatory and paradise are the same? A place to clean up before you can actually be received in Heaven?
This verse has been discussed much especially as a support to rebut the existence of purgatory; that if one believes and repents one will go to heaven, no intermediary place is needed.

My personal view, the thief would be taken to heaven without going to purgatory since Jesus said so. This is exactly the point about purgatory. Not everybody would go to purgatory but not everybody would go to heaven too, remembering that nothing unclean will go there.

The forgiveness given to the repentant thief really showed the mercy and love of God; and nothing should be taken away from that. How we wish that we all will be like the repentant thief. Yet we know that the situation does not always represent itself as the same with the said thief. There are still people who believe that may not quite live up to the standard of repentance required by God but they are not too bad either. We know that these will not go to hell nor they can be in heaven immediately without being purified first.

God bless you in your RCIA.🙂
 
I am a worthless sinner and it’s only by the divine grace of God that I will be allowed into heaven.

This is a catholic view also.
It is my belief that I will be allowed to go directly to heaven when I die not because I am clean enough but because Christ is.
 
I am a worthless sinner and it’s only by the divine grace of God that I will be allowed into heaven. It is my belief that I will be allowed to go directly to heaven when I die not because I am clean enough but because Christ is. He died in my place on the cross paid my debt in full. I now live my life in service to him only by the Holy spirit that resides within me. The Lord has made me a new creation and given me a new heart and He abide within me. If he now abide in me through the Holy Spirit just as I am,why wouldn’t He allow me to live with Him forever in the next life. God never promised to only live in us when we are purified enough, He said he will make His home with us now and forever.
The sin is gone, but we refer to the “temporal punishment due to sin” as the reason for needing Purgatory. Yes, He lives in you now, if you are in the state of grace, but not any way near the fashion He will in heaven where you will experience the Beatific Vision. We see now as through a glass dimly…

PS-- He’s in you now, yet you experience pain. What makes you think that immediately everything will change when you die? There must be some reason you are still subject to suffering, or do you think it is wasted? Why is God denying you His Fullness now? What is lacking in you if you think your debt is fully paid? Would that be fair? It won’t be any less fair when you discover that you do not instantly go to heaven, although I hope you do, as through a plenary indulgence.
 
I am a worthless sinner and it’s only by the divine grace of God that I will be allowed into heaven. It is my belief that I will be allowed to go directly to heaven when I die not because I am clean enough but because Christ is. He died in my place on the cross paid my debt in full. I now live my life in service to him only by the Holy spirit that resides within me. The Lord has made me a new creation and given me a new heart and He abide within me. If he now abide in me through the Holy Spirit just as I am,why wouldn’t He allow me to live with Him forever in the next life. God never promised to only live in us when we are purified enough, He said he will make His home with us now and forever.
Your belief…not God’s, big difference. You are clean enough? Really? You know for a fact without a shred of doubt you are 100% clean? If Christ paid your debt in full,then why bother even going to church,pray,etc,etc? Do you not sin at all anymore? That is a poor understanding of Redemption and Salvation.
 
A lot of the misunderstandings of Purgatory here seem to have at their root a misunderstanding of Heaven.

Heaven is a perfect place for perfected people. NOTHING unclean will enter there.

Only people with a relationship with Jesus Christ (Catholics call this “being in a state of grace”) go to Heaven. You MAY pay this account in this life, if you don’t, you WILL pay in the next.

Protestant theology often states: “I’m dirty but I get to go directly to Heaven anyway because I am covered with the righteousness of Christ (denying they MUST be covered with the righteousness of Christ AND INFUSED with the righteousness of Christ TOO).

This is their doctrine of imputation. But by affirming imputation, they usually DENY the necessity of the infused righteousness of Christ being necessary.

Without full purification (in this life or the next), there will be no going to Heaven. As I said before, NOTHING unclean will enter Heaven.

You might think merely the act of dying is your purgatory but then you are admitting the need for some sort of purification, and ignoring what Sacred Scripture (many already cited by other Catholics on this thread) says.

We MUST pay a full account for every wrong word we utter—Jesus says so. The fact that we can do this IN-CHRIST is a grace in and of itself. We cannot do it apart from Christ.

Arguing for the blood of Christ does not undermine Purgatory. Why? Because this purification is ALL made possible by the blood of Christ. This is all possible by the grace of God through the work of Jesus Christ. It is part of our participation or koinonia into Jesus.

People who argue against Purgatory claiming the blood of Christ do not understand what Purgatory is.

One other point. Not ALL people in Heaven went to Heaven via Purgatory. You CAN go DIRECTLY to Heaven. But you cannot go to Heaven without paying an account for EVERY wrong word you utter. We could never pay a FULL account that’s why we need Jesus’ work. But pay an account we do—Jesus says so (Matthew 12:36).

As others have pointed out, it is quite evident Dr. Stanley doesn’t understand the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory, therefore Stanley attacks a straw-man.

When a non-Catholic asks me about Purgatory the first thing I ask them is to tell me what they think the Catholic Church teaches RE: Purgatory. So far they have ALWAYS been wrong.
 
Well of course Dr. Charles Stanley is going to say something like that. He’s a Baptist, Southern Baptist, I believe and I know for a fact that Baptists do not believe in Purgatory. I grew up as a Southern Baptist. Regrettably, many Baptists, especially Southern Baptists and Fundamentalist Baptist which are similar, are quite hateful towards Catholics. Its not uncommon to hear them say something like “Catholics worship Mary.” or “The Catholic Church is the whore of Babylon.”
 
In John 14:2, Jesus told the disciples that He was going away to prepare a place for His followers. Nowhere in scripture do we find any mention of a detour into misery where we “earn” a pass into heaven. **The Bible says that believers are either at home in the body, or absent from it and present with the Lord.**There is simply no in-between stopover.
This is one of the most misunderstood bible verses used by some protestants. 2 Corinthians 5 does not say this. St Paul is reflecting on his desire to be in heaven with The Lord.

[BIBLEDRB]2 corinthians 5:8[/BIBLEDRB]
 
Originally Posted by berk60
I am a worthless sinner and it’s only by the divine grace of God that I will be allowed into heaven. It is my belief that I will be allowed to go directly to heaven when I die not because I am clean enough but because Christ is. **He died in my place on the cross paid my debt in full. **I now live my life in service to him only by the Holy spirit that resides within me. The Lord has made me a new creation and given me a new heart and He abide within me. If he now abide in me through the Holy Spirit just as I am,why wouldn’t He allow me to live with Him forever in the next life. God never promised to only live in us when we are purified enough, He said he will make His home with us now and forever.
By Christ’s death on the cross he forgave you your sins. This is a marvelous gift. But scripture is clear that there is punishment due to sin. If my daughter misses her curfew, I will forgive her, but she is going to be grounded.

Couple of other thoughts on purgatory:
  • Part of the agony of purgatory is that having seen God at our death, we desire even more so, perhaps infinitely more so, than on earth to be with him. This pain of absence is felt in purgatory.
  • We are closer to God in purgatory…and would rather be there than on earth.
  • The dimension of time is not that of earth. How long we are there may be very quick as nothing unclean can enter heaven.
  • The Catechism only has four paragraphs on purgatory
 
There are many things that I would disagree on with Dr. Stanley, but on subject of Purgatory, I would agree with him. I do not believe in its exsistence primarily because there is no proof of it and nothing that can be solidly attributed to it by Scripture nor by Early Church history. It also runs contrary to Scripture that Jesus died once for all sin. I see no room in there for the temporal effects of sin. I just think that it’s nonsensical.
 
There are many things that I would disagree on with Dr. Stanley, but on subject of Purgatory, I would agree with him. I do not believe in its exsistence primarily because there is no proof of it and nothing that can be solidly attributed to it by Scripture nor by Early Church history. It also runs contrary to Scripture that Jesus died once for all sin. I see no room in there for the temporal effects of sin. I just think that it’s nonsensical.
Nonsensical? Those who oppose it are nonsensical due to their lack of understanding Scripture. It is there…period!
 
Just a FYI to readers that are interested.

Here are the explicit references to Purgatory that I think Porknpie is referring to:

Explicit CCC references to on Purgatory
1030-1032
1472
1475
1498

There exist some **implicit **references to Purgatory in the CCC too.

Implicit CCC references concerning Purgatory (that I am aware of—there may be more)
954
958
962
1054-1055
1371
1414
1473

I don’t want to hijack the thread so I will start another one asking if anyone knows of any other implicit CCC teachings concerning Purgatory.

But I wanted to get these out (above) because they concern what we are already talking about and I thought it might be helpful to some interested.
 
Just a FYI to readers that are interested.

Here are the explicit references to Purgatory that I think Porknpie is referring to:

Explicit CCC references to on Purgatory
1030-1032
1472
1475
1498

There exist some **implicit **references to Purgatory in the CCC too.

Implicit CCC references concerning Purgatory (that I am aware of—there may be more)
954
958
962
1054-1055
1371
1414
1473

I don’t want to hijack the thread so I will start another one asking if anyone knows of any other implicit CCC teachings concerning Purgatory.

But I wanted to get these out (above) because they concern what we are already talking about and I thought it might be helpful to some interested.
Here’s the ScriptureCatholic.com link to purgatory.
 
below is a snippet from a short article on Purgatory from Catholic.com…what great resources we have right at the click of a mouse!!

The Argument for Purgatory

I would like to thank Jimmy Akin for introducing me to the logical argument for purgatory; it can be formulated as follows:

Premise 1: There will be neither sin nor attachment to sin in Heaven.

Premise 2: We (at least most of us) are still sinning and are attached to sin at the end of this life.

Conclusion: Therefore there must be a period between death and heavenly glory in which the saved are cleansed of sin and their attachment to sin.

Because this is a deductive argument, if one wants to dispute the conclusion, he must take issue with one of the premises, since the conclusion follows from them necessarily.

So which is it?
I’m not sure if this is a correct way of looking at things.

Over the past year, the thought of what happens to us after we die has come up. The verse “absent from the body, present with the Lord” stuck in my head because I know that the dead in Christ shall receive glorified bodies.

I figured that there would be no need for a purgatory, because our bodies aren’t going to the other side with us.
 
I’m not sure if this is a correct way of looking at things.

Over the past year, the thought of what happens to us after we die has come up. The verse “absent from the body, present with the Lord” stuck in my head because I know that the dead in Christ shall receive glorified bodies.

I figured that there would be no need for a purgatory, because our bodies aren’t going to the other side with us.
hmm…I think you are confusing things. Purgatory is the purification, removal of vestiges of sin…of our souls, not our bodies, after the immediate judgement after death.

Glorified bodies, we get, after the general judgement…after the end of times, on the second coming.
 
Is purgatory a form of being punished for the sins remaining after death, a form of purifying with fire? I guess I’m not clear on how the purification process works in this church doctrine.
Keep in mind neither Jesus nor his apostles inferred a purgatory. They taught only heaven or hell. Jesus(as recorded in Jn.5:24) said that “he that hears and believes…has(present) everlasting life,and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.” Now, I would think He would’ve mentioned anything as important as an ’ interruption in time’ for purification if it existed… Two points: either the Holy Spirit guided the word “has” meaning “now possesses” everlasting life or He didn’t. Many other verses such as ll Cor.5:8 only point to two locations for the soul…either here, or with the Lord. What Dr. Stanley was relating was the fact that either Christ’s blood fully accomplished our positioning in heaven, or it didn’t (and something else was needed–which would mean the cross was not 100% effective for that purpose).
 
Keep in mind neither Jesus nor his apostles inferred a purgatory. They taught only heaven or hell. Jesus(as recorded in Jn.5:24) said that “he that hears and believes…has(present) everlasting life,and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.” Now, I would think He would’ve mentioned anything as important as an ’ interruption in time’ for purification if it existed… Two points: either the Holy Spirit guided the word “has” meaning “now possesses” everlasting life or He didn’t. Many other verses such as ll Cor.5:8 only point to two locations for the soul…either here, or with the Lord. What Dr. Stanley was relating was the fact that either Christ’s blood fully accomplished our positioning in heaven, or it didn’t (and something else was needed–which would mean the cross was not 100% effective for that purpose).
Wrong! Dr. Stanley is wrong and the CC is not saying that his death on the cross was not 100% effective. Wrong again! There exist verses inferred to purgatory. Your denial of it just like so many Protestants does not change an iota. No different than Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses denying the Trinity and Christ divinity.
 
Wrong! Dr. Stanley is wrong and the CC is not saying that his death on the cross was not 100% effective. Wrong again! There exist verses inferred to purgatory. Your denial of it just like so many Protestants does not change an iota. No different than Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses denying the Trinity and Christ divinity.
why…
 
Keep in mind neither Jesus nor his apostles inferred a purgatory. They taught only heaven or hell. Jesus(as recorded in Jn.5:24) said that “he that hears and believes…has(present) everlasting life,and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.” Now, I would think He would’ve mentioned anything as important as an ’ interruption in time’ for purification if it existed… Two points: either the Holy Spirit guided the word “has” meaning “now possesses” everlasting life or He didn’t. Many other verses such as ll Cor.5:8 only point to two locations for the soul…either here, or with the Lord. What Dr. Stanley was relating was the fact that either Christ’s blood fully accomplished our positioning in heaven, or it didn’t (and something else was needed–which would mean the cross was not 100% effective for that purpose).
Hmmm…incomplete is your understanding, you just need to look deeper in Scripture:

catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0091.html

Purgatory: Holy Fire
SCOTT HAHN
Jesus(as recorded in Jn.5:24) said that “he that hears and believes…has(present) everlasting life,and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.” Now, I would think He would’ve mentioned anything as important as an ’ interruption in time’ for purification if it existed…
From the link above:

Now, what do you mean “some place else?” You’re just fabricating that for the convenience of defending the doctrine. Not so. As we unpack the doctrinal teachings and the evidence from scripture, we can see this idea clearly stated, even in the New Testament. Turn with me now to 1st Peter, chapter 3, beginning in verse 17. In 1st Peter, chapter 3, verse 17, we read, “For it is better to suffer for doing right, if that should be God’s will, than for doing wrong. For Christ also died for sins once for all. The righteous for the unrighteous, that He might bring us to God. Being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit in which He went and preached to the spirits in prison.” …At any rate, we have something that is neither hell nor heaven which Christ entered and then exited and, as the early Church firmly believed throughout the Church, Christ descended into hades. That’s the term, we translate it hell, but we sometimes mislead people — He descended into hades and then He ascended into heaven leading captivity captive, as Ephesians 4 says.

Now, somebody could say, “Where else do you go?” Let’s take a look at the Book of Revelation, chapter 20, verses 4-6 and 11 and following. In Revelation 20, John has a vision… Death and hades gave up the dead in them and all were judged by what they had done. Then death and hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death and if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

Two classes of righteous, those who are martyred, they just went straight to heaven and sat on thrones and reigned with Christ. But there’s a second group, isn’t there? Those that did not participate in the first resurrection of the righteous martyrs, but they did have their names written in the book of life; so when the white throne, the great white throne of judgment occurs, they are delivered from hades. They participate in what you could call the second resurrection, not the second death and afterwards death and hades are swallowed up in the lake of fire, and then you’ve got pure hell and pure heaven and no more intermediate place or state at the end of time.

And more…Let’s turn to Romans 8 and see this doctrine taught further. Romans 8 is one of my favorite all-time passages and has been for years and years as a Protestant as well as a Catholic, but I must say I’ve slightly adjusted my understanding in the last few years. I always thought that Romans 8, which many considered to be — I mean Romans is in a sense the central gem in a cluster of Pauline precious stones. Romans 8 is the central facet that glistens and gleams. It’s beautiful. It’s a promise that we will persevere through the Holy Spirit.
 
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