Dr. Charles Stanley exclaimed: Purgatory is false!

[JamesCaruso]

All Christians believe that only purified souls can enter God’s full presence in heaven. The argument seems to be narrowed down to what constitutes purity and how is it achieved. Some Christians are arguing that they are covered by the blood of Christ and so seen as pure by God and able to enter heaven without delay, while others say that this is not true, there is a temporal punishment still due to our sins even though we are in the state of sanctifying grace. There may also be a subset that says the purification can occur instantaneously, such as the thief on the cross may have been a beneficiary of. Maybe discussing just these points will get us somewhere.

Blessed are the clean of heart: for they shall see God. Matthew 5:8

 

[pablope]

Keep

What Dr. Stanley was relating was the fact that either Christ’s blood fully accomplished our positioning in heaven, or it didn’t (and something else was needed–which would mean the cross was not 100% effective for that purpose).

Well…this is where protestants misunderstand:

catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0091.html

Now what does this mean, that Christ has not paid for our sin? Of course not. It doesn’t mean that. Christ has paid once and for all for our sin. His death is the ultimate satisfaction and price for our redemption, but His life and His death must be lived out in us. That’s why we need to pick up our cross, and we need to imitate Christ. Did you catch that? We don’t suffer because Christ’s sufferings weren’t enough. We suffer because Christ’s life must be reproduced in us. It is finished. It is accomplished, but now it must be applied. The work of the third person of the Holy Spirit is New Testament history, is personal history.

Now are we paying for our sins? No, they are paid for. And the only way we can make restitution is because the life of Christ through the Holy Spirit has been poured out in us so that through our sufferings Christ’s glory can be reproduced in us. But there’s no short cut. Hebrews says that Christ, though a Son, learned obedience through suffering. Why did He suffer? That His human nature could learn obedience and impart that human nature to us through the flesh and blood in the Eucharist, the body and blood of Christ. When we receive that human nature of the eternal Son of God and historical Son of Man, we are enabled to learn obedience through suffering. There’s no other way to learn obedience.

 

[JamesCaruso]

Well…this is where protestants misunderstand:

catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0091.html

Now what does this mean, that Christ has not paid for our sin? Of course not. It doesn’t mean that. Christ has paid once and for all for our sin. His death is the ultimate satisfaction and price for our redemption, but His life and His death must be lived out in us. That’s why we need to pick up our cross, and we need to imitate Christ. Did you catch that? We don’t suffer because Christ’s sufferings weren’t enough. We suffer because Christ’s life must be reproduced in us. It is finished. It is accomplished, but now it must be applied. The work of the third person of the Holy Spirit is New Testament history, is personal history.

Now are we paying for our sins? No, they are paid for. And the only way we can make restitution is because the life of Christ through the Holy Spirit has been poured out in us so that through our sufferings Christ’s glory can be reproduced in us. But there’s no short cut. Hebrews says that Christ, though a Son, learned obedience through suffering. Why did He suffer? That His human nature could learn obedience and impart that human nature to us through the flesh and blood in the Eucharist, the body and blood of Christ. When we receive that human nature of the eternal Son of God and historical Son of Man, we are enabled to learn obedience through suffering. There’s no other way to learn obedience.

Another way to look at it for those who believe they are saved and therefore have no need of purgation is this-- why on earth would Jesus require us to stay on earth and suffer all the pains and sorrows of our earthly existence if we already have our ticket to heaven punched? If God is All Loving, why is He exacting this needless suffering? And if it’s not needless, then I answer, neither is the suffering on the trip to heaven needless, which we call Purgatory.

 

[Nicea325]

why…

Why…what?

 

[cheezey]

Well…this is where protestants misunderstand:

catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0091.html

Now what does this mean, that Christ has not paid for our sin? Of course not. It doesn’t mean that. Christ has paid once and for all for our sin. His death is the ultimate satisfaction and price for our redemption, but His life and His death must be lived out in us. That’s why we need to pick up our cross, and we need to imitate Christ. Did you catch that? We don’t suffer because Christ’s sufferings weren’t enough. We suffer because Christ’s life must be reproduced in us. It is finished. It is accomplished, but now it must be applied. The work of the third person of the Holy Spirit is New Testament history, is personal history.

Now are we paying for our sins? No, they are paid for. And the only way we can make restitution is because the life of Christ through the Holy Spirit has been poured out in us so that through our sufferings Christ’s glory can be reproduced in us. But there’s no short cut. Hebrews says that Christ, though a Son, learned obedience through suffering. Why did He suffer? That His human nature could learn obedience and impart that human nature to us through the flesh and blood in the Eucharist, the body and blood of Christ. When we receive that human nature of the eternal Son of God and historical Son of Man, we are enabled to learn obedience through suffering. There’s no other way to learn obedience.

thank you for the article, very helpful for my journey. Apparently there could misconceptions with Catholics, too, so it’s not just other guys…It’s an intense subject.
Again, thank you. I am saving it…

“Now, you may think, that’s just a non-Catholic misconception, but no, it’s a common Catholic misconception — that if you died and you were alienated from God, purgatory is your second chance. That’s not the case.”

 

[Aramis]

The Jews even had a duality… the righteous dead slept (in sheol) until the kingdom comes, while the unrighteous suffer death eternal.

 

[JamesCaruso]

The Jews even had a duality… the righteous dead slept (in sheol) until the kingdom comes, while the unrighteous suffer death eternal.

We even say in the Apostles Creed that He descended into hell-- not the hell of eternal damnation, but the hell of temporary apartness from God.

 

[just_came_back]

So far I see no one here that understands it. I understand that you believe purgatory is a place of purification. But that’s as far as your explanation of purgatory goes.

Who came up with this purgatory idea anyway? There’s no real proof of it, is there? It’s just a theory in all reality.

Limbo was one of those theory’s so man came up with for babies that died before being Baptized and then Zap, it’s gone. Another man says it doesn’t exists.

So if that happens to purgatory, then what?

Stick to what’s in God’s word and add nothing to it or take anything away and you’ll do just fine. We as mortal beings do not have the right to speak for God. Don’t you think?

Remember, friend, it was the Catholic Church that gave you and your kind THE BIBLE, well except your kind took out 8 books so who’s taking away from Holy Scripture? Get a clue.

 

[just_came_back]

Well of course Dr. Charles Stanley is going to say something like that. He’s a Baptist, Southern Baptist, I believe and I know for a fact that Baptists do not believe in Purgatory. I grew up as a Southern Baptist. Regrettably, many Baptists, especially Southern Baptists and Fundamentalist Baptist which are similar, are quite hateful towards Catholics. Its not uncommon to hear them say something like “Catholics worship Mary.” or “The Catholic Church is the whore of Babylon.”

And yet they being so holy, let him, Stanley, still continue to preach DESPITE the fact he is divorced and they claim to be against divorce. Stanley is a major contributor to multi-level marketing in case anybody didn’t know. He has backed Amway/Quixstar and the rest of these pyramid schemes over the years with some of the top Republicans.

Sounds like a TRUE prayer warrior!

 

[joemf]

And yet they being so holy, let him, Stanley, still continue to preach DESPITE the fact he is divorced and they claim to be against divorce. Stanley is a major contributor to multi-level marketing in case anybody didn’t know. He has backed Amway/Quixstar and the rest of these pyramid schemes over the years with some of the top Republicans.

Sounds like a TRUE prayer warrior!

I feel you’re both correct! I believe it’s a contradiction in terms–your purgatory, his judgement seat of Christ where our good/bad will be judged w/ our ‘bad’ “being burned,yet we will be spared” as scripture says. You have an excellent point however in that most evangelicals still support the view that according to 1Tim. and other passages which list qualifications for elders,shepherds etc… would disqualify him due to his divorce. If I recall I saw an article where his son(Andy) and he parted company over the issue.( Andy feeling he should’ve stepped down). I also feel he should have stepped down.

 

[just_came_back]

I feel you’re both correct! I believe it’s a contradiction in terms–your purgatory, his judgement seat of Christ where our good/bad will be judged w/ our ‘bad’ “being burned,yet we will be spared” as scripture says. You have an excellent point however in that most evangelicals still support the view that according to 1Tim. and other passages which list qualifications for elders,shepherds etc… would disqualify him due to his divorce. If I recall I saw an article where his son(Andy) and he parted company over the issue.( Andy feeling he should’ve stepped down). I also feel he should have stepped down.

Purgatory is almost always misjudged to be a place, when it truth it is an actual process. “Purging, refining” etc. and in a lot of ways the protestant view of the judgement seat of Christ has the same wording, etc. Our WORKS will be tried so therefore are indeed important. Catholics have NEVER said that our works save us. They don’t. It is indeed Christ’s grace that does save and that faith which enables us to DO good works. Heck, even Satan BELIEVES in God.

As far as Stanley’s divorce, I certainly wasn’t judging the man, only going by what I know to be true in protestant circles, remember I was raised pentecostal. But I know pentecostal pastors today that allow divorcees to hold ministerial positions within their churches and while God alone truly doth know the heart, going by on what I grew up with, it does raise my eyebrows. Peace to you in Christ friend.

 

[joemf]

Purgatory is almost always misjudged to be a place, when it truth it is an actual process. “Purging, refining” etc. and in a lot of ways the protestant view of the judgement seat of Christ has the same wording, etc. Our WORKS will be tried so therefore are indeed important. Catholics have NEVER said that our works save us. They don’t. It is indeed Christ’s grace that does save and that faith which enables us to DO good works. Heck, even Satan BELIEVES in God.

As far as Stanley’s divorce, I certainly wasn’t judging the man, only going by what I know to be true in protestant circles, remember I was raised pentecostal. But I know pentecostal pastors today that allow divorcees to hold ministerial positions within their churches and while God alone truly doth know the heart, going by on what I grew up with, it does raise my eyebrows. Peace to you in Christ friend.

yep…I knew you weren’t…there’s a lot more of the ‘looking the other way’ in our denomination(s) regarding being disqualified for certain things. So goes the world, and the church sadly! A coworker of my wife has relatives in the church and they said his reasoning was that ‘leaving’ would hurt the church more than help it. Hmmmm…church over scripture? interesting, huh? It’s a poster child case of what we are preached–that your church can actually become your idol.

 

[Nicea325]

yep…I knew you weren’t…there’s a lot more of the ‘looking the other way’ in our denomination(s) regarding being disqualified for certain things. So goes the world, and the church sadly! A coworker of my wife has relatives in the church and they said his reasoning was that ‘leaving’ would hurt the church more than help it. Hmmmm…church over scripture? interesting, huh? It’s a poster child case of what we are preached–that your church can actually become your idol.

Just like the Bible can be an idol too. Christianity is not confined to the Bible…and error by so many.

 

[JamesCaruso]

Purgatory is almost always misjudged to be a place, when it truth it is an actual process. “Purging, refining” etc. and in a lot of ways the protestant view of the judgement seat of Christ has the same wording, etc. Our WORKS will be tried so therefore are indeed important. Catholics have NEVER said that our works save us. They don’t. It is indeed Christ’s grace that does save and that faith which enables us to DO good works. Heck, even Satan BELIEVES in God.

As far as Stanley’s divorce, I certainly wasn’t judging the man, only going by what I know to be true in protestant circles, remember I was raised pentecostal. But I know pentecostal pastors today that allow divorcees to hold ministerial positions within their churches and while God alone truly doth know the heart, going by on what I grew up with, it does raise my eyebrows. Peace to you in Christ friend.

Place can be used with various connotations. You might say heaven is not a place, too, but then, Jesus and Mary are there bodily. So then you might say, but their bodies are glorified. So what, they aren’t spirits, they’re glorified bodies that can visit earth and eat fish, for one. You might also refer to Jesus’ death and how he descended into hell (i.e., purgatory) (Apostles’ Creed). Place means various things depending on the context.

The Catholic Encyclopedia states:

Purgatory (Lat., “purgare”, to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God’s grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions. The Catholic Encyclopedia newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm [boldface added]

The Catechism words it more in line with your thinking.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this** final purification** of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/epub/index.cfm#[boldface added]

You’ll find you can’t say anything here in the Forum without someone challenging or clarifying it. :tsktsk::crying:

But, personally, that’s what I like about the Forum. It is a learning experience, because nobody knows it all. Thanks for your post. I used to attend a Pentecostal church in Kentucky, an offshoot of a Baptist church, and I learned an awful lot from those exceptionally loving Christians.

 

[just_came_back]

Place can be used with various connotations. You might say heaven is not a place, too, but then, Jesus and Mary are there bodily. So then you might say, but their bodies are glorified. So what, they aren’t spirits, they’re glorified bodies that can visit earth and eat fish, for one. You might also refer to Jesus’ death and how he descended into hell (i.e., purgatory) (Apostles’ Creed). Place means various things depending on the context.

The Catholic Encyclopedia states:

Purgatory (Lat., “purgare”, to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God’s grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions. The Catholic Encyclopedia newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm [boldface added]

The Catechism words it more in line with your thinking.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this** final purification** of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/epub/index.cfm#[boldface added]

You’ll find you can’t say anything here in the Forum without someone challenging or clarifying it. :tsktsk::crying:

But, personally, that’s what I like about the Forum. It is a learning experience, because nobody knows it all. Thanks for your post. I used to attend a Pentecostal church in Kentucky, an offshoot of a Baptist church, and I learned an awful lot from those exceptionally loving Christians.

Indeed. And there are some that know that I am a Catholic who are glad that I am still in church and love the Lord. THAT’S true Christian fellowship.

 

[sennincatholic]

What is so difficult about the concept of purgatory that protestants do not understand? purgatory is a purification process for the imperfect soul after death enabling that soul to be able to live in the presence of GOD for GOD is HOLY and nothing unclean can even exist in his direct presence.Thus purgatory attest how complete God is merciful to mankind as it allows even those souls who died imperfect(but saved by Christs sacrifice) to be able to stand in the presence of God.
Most saints went through the process of purification of their souls here on earth through suffering and self denial.Thats why after their death they went straight to heaven.

 

[JamesCaruso]

Indeed. And there are some that know that I am a Catholic who are glad that I am still in church and love the Lord. THAT’S true Christian fellowship.

Yes, and Pentecostals could teach Catholics a thing or two about Christian fellowship, at least the ones I have known. Happy to have someone on the Forum I can share this with and who understands what I am talking about. It’s probably why our new Pope experienced so many Church departures to Assemblies of God in his own country. But Eucharist especially, and a few other things, Devotion to Our Lady among them, are reason enough for me to remain Catholic no matter what.

 

[BA11]

My issue with puragatory:

Jesus spoke nearly endlessly about Heaven and Hell, using very clear and precise language that can not be misunderstood and thus almost every single christian today (whether they be catholic. protestant of orthodox) understands the concept of an eternal Heaven and Hell. He is nauseatingly clear about their existence and nature.

Now, the question then becomes: Why would he not be just as clear about purgatory? Why would he largely (yes, I know there are a couple of sentences that vaguely allude to something like purgatory if you read them with the intent of seeing it) ignore such a significant aspect of the afterlife? Why would Paul and Peter largely do the same? Why is the ONLY passage that can unbiasedly be read as a possible suggestion of purgatory in an old testement book that half of christianity rejects anyway?

It just doesnt make sense. Jesus was abundantly clear on the afterlife, why would he not be clear about purgatory? Moreover, why did the first and second century church fathers fail to clearly define such a place? I mean, surely if Jesus had just failed to mention it publically someone would have at least gotten the memo?

 

[JamesCaruso]

My issue with puragatory:

Jesus spoke nearly endlessly about Heaven and Hell, using very clear and precise language that can not be misunderstood and thus almost every single christian today (whether they be catholic. protestant of orthodox) understands the concept of an eternal Heaven and Hell. He is nauseatingly clear about their existence and nature.

Now, the question then becomes: Why would he not be just as clear about purgatory? Why would he largely (yes, I know there are a couple of sentences that vaguely allude to something like purgatory if you read them with the intent of seeing it) ignore such a significant aspect of the afterlife? Why would Paul and Peter largely do the same? Why is the ONLY passage that can unbiasedly be read as a possible suggestion of purgatory in an old testement book that half of christianity rejects anyway?

It just doesnt make sense. Jesus was abundantly clear on the afterlife, why would he not be clear about purgatory? Moreover, why did the first, second or third century church fathers fail to clearly define such a place? I mean, surely if Jesus had just failed to mention it publically someone would have at least gotten the memo?

Why would Peter and the others say anything, since it was already a commonly held belief to pray for the dead.

According to Jewish tradition, the soul must spend some time purifying itself before it can enter the World to Come. The maximum time required for purification is 12 months, for the most evil person. To recite Kaddish for 12 months would imply that the parent was the type who needed 12 months of purification! To avoid this implication, the Sages decreed that a son should recite Kaddish for only eleven months.

jewfaq.org/death.htm

And isn’t it important enough that it was included in the Apostles’ Creed? “He descended into hell; on the third day he arose again from the dead…” Aren’t we taught from earliest times that he went to free those who had been waiting, some for centuries, for the Messiah to come and reopen the gates of heaven?

 

[BA11]

Why would Peter and the others say anything, since it was already a commonly held belief to pray for the dead.

According to Jewish tradition, the soul must spend some time purifying itself before it can enter the World to Come. The maximum time required for purification is 12 months, for the most evil person. To recite Kaddish for 12 months would imply that the parent was the type who needed 12 months of purification! To avoid this implication, the Sages decreed that a son should recite Kaddish for only eleven months.

jewfaq.org/death.htm

And isn’t it important enough that it was included in the Apostles’ Creed? “He descended into hell; on the third day he arose again from the dead…” Aren’t we taught from earliest times that he went to free those who had been waiting, some for centuries, for the Messiah to come and reopen the gates of heaven?

Praying for the dead =/ Purgatory. That is a cop out. Plenty of non-catholics “pray” for their relatives and friends when they die. It’s a comfort mechanism if nothing else. Asking God to take care of your loved ones doesnt mean you believe in purgatory. Furthermore jewish beliefs on a cleansing process vary and yet they still prayed for the dead, meaning many prayed for the dead in spite of a lack of belief in any form of righteous punishment. Even if it did prove purgatory, it still doesnt explain why Jesus and the early christians failed to clearly define purgatory as they did so many other things.

And most historians believe the apostles creed was written centuries after christ with the absolute earliest plausible date being close to 200 AD. There is also virtually no evidence of who wrote it or what language it was originally written in. All we know for sure is that it was NOT written by the original apostles. Additionally, you appear to be equating the old testement concept of the underworld to purgatory which would be inaccurate. Sheol is not purgatory.