Here a few verses for you:
Where does it say that everything Jesus said or taught the Apostles is in the Bible?
If you really want to…here is an exhaustive explanation…from the OT to the NT of purgatory…catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0091.html
I’ve read a ton of catholic commentary on the subject, including Scott Hahn. Many offer up decent reasoning but, in the read, nobody can provide conclusive biblical proof of purgatory because it isnt there. Meanwhile I can PROVE to someone who believes the bible that Heaven and Hell exist, that they are eternal and
Oh, what is it, a third place? We are taught that purgatory is a place where we are temporarily deprived of the Beatific Vision, not that we don’t have sanctifying grace and God living in us, for if we die without sanctifying grace, we go to hell. It seems to me that the people in sheol, like the people in Purgatory, are both temporarily deprived of the Beatific Vision, that is, heaven. It’s close enough for me to call both Purgatory, coupled with the Jewish belief that there is a process of purification after death. I did not make that up. Plus, my common sense tells me the same thing. I do not believe that I have achieved such great perfection thus far in life that I can waltz right into the throne room of God fully confident of my purity of heart in the very real Presence of the God of all the universe. Unless of course he gives me a special pass, one that I can’t see how I merit on my own, and I’m not talking about being covered by the blood of Jesus. I’m covered now, but I still suffer. Why?
Even more so, it makes no sense that the earliest Christians would have such a doctrine that they eventually felt they must formalize in the Creed if it wasn’t the teaching of Christ and His early disciples.
Just think of all the sins of omission! Do we spend all of our time wisely? Do we give sufficiently of our resources to help the downtrodden? Do we spend all our time serving God? Do we really take up our cross and follow Him? There is a whole lot we will still have to answer for when we die, despite the fact that we die in the state of grace. In this respect, we should all tremble at the prospect of meeting Jesus the Judge when we shuffle off this mortal coil. I cannot name the number of things I did not do, the number of opportunities I did not take advantage of. Like Paul, we should work out our salvation is fear and trembling.
In much the same way that I still do not have a gift from the Lord to discern those predestined for perdition, I still do not have the gift of discernment as to whose heart will never turn, will never soften, will never step back just once enough for Jesus’ love to enter that little area of their heart, and begin a whole new revolution in their lives. God has told us that His Word will not return void. Even when it seems hopeless, we should not give up hope for our separated brothers and sisters. OTOH, I see what you are saying as a practical matter. We need to spend our time where it can bear the most fruit. Still, that is not always ours to decide. Cast you nets on the other side of the boat, the Master said. And when they did it was filled to overflowing, even though they had been out all night and caught nothing. But I do take your advice as helpful guidance and intended to comfort when we feel like we are beating our heads against a brick wall. The thing is, our attempts at helping others helps ourselves. They help us to grow stronger in our own faith and to search out and discover the richness of our own faith. This Forum is a wonderful place to delve deeper and deeper into the storehouse of wisdom and knowledge, which is Holy Mother Church. And as we receive these gifts of Hers, we must give them away. Lastly, I would not say hardness of heart so much as blindness of mind. These brothers and sisters love the Lord. They are members of the same family as you and I. I do know the admonition, “Cast not your pearls before swine,” but I reject it in dealing inside the family, for what is a separated brother and sister but a family member. Thank you for your well intentioned advice. I do hope you are wrong. Also, I hope the Jews, one of which is my dear wife, will also some day rejoice in the risen Lord. It’s a veil over their eyes, and the Lord has promised to lift it. He will do so, but I am not thereby absolved from teaching/discoursing with them to the extent they are willing to entertain such matters. Peace.
It’s great to know that Christian doctrine is just a logical conclusion.
:clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping:
I see your point. The more they argue, the more I find why I am Catholic and why I will never leave again. On a personal level, and given my locale, I guess I am just burned out by the attitudes of protestant fundamentalists.
My job took me to Kentucky one year. I attended a Catholic church in one town, but didn’t know a soul there. It was Catholic friendly, if you know what I mean, polite, and well mannered, but I never got to know anyone. But is another nearby town, I found a Pentecostal church sprung from a Baptist church. They were fundamentalist in there beliefs, but being that I had experience with the Catholic charismatic movement, I thought I’d give it a try. They turned out to be the most loving people I had ever met. After some time of visiting their church after Mass, I got to know the people really well. The Pastor invited me for dinner at least weekly and we had all kinds of outings and get-togethers. I really grew fond of all those loving Christian people. As time wore on, some of them became bolder in talking to me about Catholicism. Because I came to know them on the basis of friendship and our mutual love for the Lord, they had been hesitant to bring up these subject, but once they loved and trusted me, they did. There were questions about worshiping Mary, transubstantiation, and of course, the Catholic Church being the harlot of Babylon. I don’t know whether my answers persuaded anyone, but I’m sure it gave them food for thought. By and large, we focused on the 90% we had in common, especially our love for the Lord. I haven’t kept up with them over the years, but I do know that at one point two of them whose home I stayed at on one trip,became missionaries, taking there children with them. That church was so full of God’s love. I guess the lesson I learned is that it’s better to meet fundamentalists on a friendship basis than to encounter them in terms of doctrinal debate. We do have more in common than we have differences, and I did learn a lot from them, as I am sure they learned a lot from me. I was even asked to become their assistant pastor, but of course, I had to decline, being that I was a Catholic. I’m sure that was difficult for them to understand, but they accepted my decision.
Someone aptly pointed out that the forbears of today’s Protestants believed there was a purgatory for 1,500 years, then stopped believing it after leaving the Catholic Church. What changed? They left behind tradition in preference for a “Bible alone” position for the first time in those 1,500 years. So, they took the Bible, which the Catholic Church had previously defined, dropped a few books on their own authority, and discarded 1,500 years, now 2,000 years, of tradition, the writings of saintly Church leaders and doctors, and practices of Holy Mother Church. I suppose it was necessary to abandon tradition, because they could not take with them the succession of the Chair of St. Peter, nor claim the infallibility of their new churches’ teachings. Better to jettison it all, save the Bible, I guess was the sentiment. I wonder how many variations of Christian doctrine now exist in the world due to Protestantism? A few more if you add the schism churches.
Thanks for your comment. Personally, I believe in purgatory. We cannot stand in Gods presence with sin. I just dont understand non-catholics view of not having purgatory.
If you remember at the time of Martin Luther, there were abuses concerning indulgences. For one thing, they were being sold for money, and for another, some churchmen promised the gullible faithful false benefits from the indulgences, such as perpetual happiness in this life and assurance of salvation in the next. Indulgences as we know them today, and as Church teaching has always accorded them, are cancellations of temporal punishment still due for sins that have already been forgiven. Certain prayers and blessings carry with them indulgences, and plenary indulgences require confession and communion, like the Pope’s recent Bible Papal blessing. Luther was upset with the profiteering going on around the sale of indulgences, and one of his thoughts on the matter was that the Pope had no authority to grant indulgences and that justification was by faith alone. This for all intents and purposes, the way I understand it, wiped out the need for a purgatory in his eyes; i.e., if you’re justified by faith alone, there’s no need for anything further. Luther made the Bible primary, and said that he would only obey the Pope if it agreed with the Bible. I think this may be the origin of denying the existence of purgatory in the Protestant churches.