Dr. Francis Beckwith

[Ani_Ibi]

When have Catholics ever been on these shows?

To be fair, Benny Hinn has a fair number of Catholics on his tv show and when he comes to Toronto he has a favourite priest who comes on and jumps around the stage slaying people in the Spirit and being slain in turn. I phoned up the priest to ask him to pray for a friend of mine who was sick and I was really quite hurt by his curt dismissal.

Benny Hinn says he loves Catholics. Frankly I believe him. I have no reason not to. The Pope has given him audiences.

What I don’t understand is the animosity in Reformer circles toward him. Anyone have any insight into that?

 

[Contarini]

What I don’t understand is the animosity in Reformer circles toward him. Anyone have any insight into that?

If you are talking about the Reformed–adherents of Calvinism, the historic mainstream of Protestantism–then it’s easy to explain. The Reformed are generally cessationists–they don’t believe that miracles take place since the time of the Apostles. This is the traditional Protestant position and not confined to the Reformed, so this may hold good even if we are talking about Protestants in general (I note from another thread that you have started saying “Reformers” instead of “Protestants”–since the people who don’t want to be called Protestants are generally trying to distance themselves from the Reformers, I question this choice on your part, but that’s another issue).

Also, many of us just think he comes across as a slick showman and maybe even a charlatan, though that may be uncharitable of us. His theology is also a bit strange at best–at one time he believed that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit each had a body, soul, and spirit, though I understand that he has withdrawn this claim after being told it was heretical.

I’m not a big fan of flashy religious figures, period.
Edwin

 

[Ani_Ibi]

James White has collected all the blog entries on Prof Beckwith’s interview and posted them on his own webpage under the title: “A Great Example of Roman Obscurantism”

The replies on Jimmy Akin’s blog got pretty rough.

 

[mgrfin]

I would like to speak to “giving one’s testimony” after conversion from my own standpoint.

I “swam the Tiber” this year, after 10 years of seeking. There were a lot of elements that went into this journey, many turning points, a-ha moments, etc…

God bless you, Francis!

Well, said SisterMoon. I am sure your personal testimony is far more effective than all the typing I can do to answer objections.

I am sure there are non-Catholics here who are on a similar journey as you were and are on.

The faith was given to me by God and my parents, and they have done a wonderful job with me. Many converts have to suffer terribly, suffer in their minds and their souls to make the journey. Some may give up, but not because you have not shown the way and prayed earnestly for them.

God bless.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

In the beginning of this thread, I was only able to listen to part of the interview but did manage to read the entire post-interview blog. Last evening, I listened to the whole interview.

Actually I thought overall it was OK. Prof Beckwith and Koukl did have a little disagreement in the middle, mainly because the Prof articulated that he had not anticipated a debate and because Koukl articulated that, given the public stature of the Prof, Reformers would naturally have some questions as to why the Prof had made the swim.

It seemed to me that both respected each other’s sensitivities. I was actually quite amazed at how laid back the interview appeared, although I am more than willing to admit that it may have felt differently to the Prof.

To be fair, the media is the media. Interviews are not conversations. I learned the hard way to scope out what I think the questions will actually be – regardless of what the journalist says they will be – and prepare myself a focus, some notes, and at least two good sound bites.

I also learned the hard way that a good journalist will inevitably ‘bait and switch’ which is what Koukl did in spades. And so I learned to address the ‘switch’ but bend the ‘switch’ back to what I want to say.

I have found that journalists accept this method. They are mainly worried about not having something to make news. If they get news, they are more than willing to let go of their agenda, particularly if they feel I have respected them enough to research the interview.

Mainly I felt that Koukl was a very bright guy. He had obviously prepared himself for the interview, obviously read widely on Church history and dogma. He did miss some critical facts, however. But I just think this goes with the territory. If he did not miss those critical facts, he would be knee deep in the Tiber.

Mainly I noticed the insistence on the part of Koukl and the callers on verbiage. Jesus is not a book. Jesus is a Person. How do you communicate the personal nature of Catholicism to someone who believes that the sun rises and goes down on Scripture?

 

[Pixie_Dust]

I listened to the whole thing, finally! IMHO, it was more of an inquisition than an interview. Here we had Dr Beckwith trying to share his story, and getting interrupted every 3 sentences. For a while it really did seem like Koukl was afraid of his listeners hearing too much truth in what Dr Beckwith was saying.

If I hear ONE MORE person say, “I was Catholic for 30-some years and then one day I miraculously heard the Gospel for the very first time” I think. I. will. SCREAM! Do people put Play-doh in their ears before they attend Mass??? “The Gospel” that they’re talking about (not portions of Matthew, Mark, Luke or John) is stated at least TWICE at every Mass. Once in the Creed and again during the Eucharistic prayers.

 

[Teflon93]

To be fair, Benny Hinn has a fair number of Catholics on his tv show and when he comes to Toronto he has a favourite priest who comes on and jumps around the stage slaying people in the Spirit and being slain in turn. I phoned up the priest to ask him to pray for a friend of mine who was sick and I was really quite hurt by his curt dismissal.

Benny Hinn says he loves Catholics. Frankly I believe him. I have no reason not to. The Pope has given him audiences.

What I don’t understand is the animosity in Reformer circles toward him. Anyone have any insight into that?

I stand corrected. I’ve only seen his show a couple of times and hadn’t noted that.

 

[Teflon93]

I listened to the whole thing, finally! IMHO, it was more of an inquisition than an interview. Here we had Dr Beckwith trying to share his story, and getting interrupted every 3 sentences. For a while it really did seem like Koukl was afraid of his listeners hearing too much truth in what Dr Beckwith was saying.

If I hear ONE MORE person say, “I was Catholic for 30-some years and then one day I miraculously heard the Gospel for the very first time” I think. I. will. SCREAM! Do people put Play-doh in their ears before they attend Mass??? “The Gospel” that they’re talking about (not portions of Matthew, Mark, Luke or John) is stated at least TWICE at every Mass. Once in the Creed and again during the Eucharistic prayers.

This brings up an interesting question:

How many Protestant converts from Catholicism attended Mass regularly as an adult?

 

[Pixie_Dust]

This brings up an interesting question:

How many Protestant converts from Catholicism attended Mass regularly as an adult?

That would make an interesting survey.
Didn’t Koukl say he was 16 when he “got saved” and left the Church? Am I remembering that correctly from the broadcast?

 

[Teflon93]

That would make an interesting survey.
Didn’t Koukl say he was 16 when he “got saved” and left the Church? Am I remembering that correctly from the broadcast?

That is my recollection as well.

 

[SisterMoon]

That is so annoying (sorry, don’t know how to quote on this forum).

My sisters left the Catholic Church when they were 13 and 15, but they are “experts” on Catholicism. I feel like since we left when I was 7, they just think I’ll eventually come to realize that they’re right. I’m just in a “honeymoon stage” now.

I ask them how they could REALLY think they knew the faith at that age. They are adament that they did, but they rejected it. When I query them about specifics, of course, they are sadly mistaken on what the church actually teaches.

But I don’t have a leg to stand on. They went to Catholic school. I didn’t.

Oh well.

 

[VociMike]

That is so annoying (sorry, don’t know how to quote on this forum).

Use the “Quote” button on the lower right to quote the entire message (delete those parts you don’t want to quote).

And/or, select the text you want to quote and use the “quote” button above your message box. It’s the yellow “speech bubble” between what looks like a postcard of a mountain scene, and the “#” button.

My sisters left the Catholic Church when they were 13 and 15, but they are “experts” on Catholicism. I feel like since we left when I was 7, they just think I’ll eventually come to realize that they’re right. I’m just in a “honeymoon stage” now.

I ask them how they could REALLY think they knew the faith at that age. They are adament that they did, but they rejected it. When I query them about specifics, of course, they are sadly mistaken on what the church actually teaches.

But I don’t have a leg to stand on. They went to Catholic school. I didn’t.

Oh well.

“They went to Catholic school” is, in this day and age, nearly a guarantee that they do not know the faith. Sad but true.

Anyway, lots of people leave the faith in their teens. It’s usually about “gaining freedom”. The freedom to sin (at least, to have the opportunity without the guilt). I know, I was one of them. But lots of them also end up coming back when they find out that all that “freedom” wasn’t so hot, wasn’t what they were made for.

 

[ecsouth]

Hey. Thanks for the encouraging word. This is what I just posted on the comments section of the STR blog:

I do want to thank Greg and Melinda for having me on as a guest. I will confess that my performance was less than stellar, largely because I was prepared for one sort of interview and received another. That is not Greg’s or Melinda’s fault. They both are good souls with pure motives, and I love them very much. It is my fault. For I had traveled quite a distance in the past several years, from Protestantism to Catholicism, not realizing that some of my friends were not on the same journey. So, for me, what seemed like a small trek in late April was the conclusion of a spiritual jog that had begun, inadvertently, many years prior. Thus, I saw my friends as only an arms length away, when in fact the distance was greater. And yet, we are so close; so close in fact that we can bridge the distance by our mutual affection and love for Christ, something that theological disputation may not ever be able to bridge this side of heaven.

God bless Stand To Reason.

Frank

I have been following the story of Dr. Beckwith’s reversion with interest. I want to echo the earlier comment noting his humility and charity in what must be a difficult situation.
I, too, was distressed upon first listening to the interview with Greg Koukl. I couldn’t understand Greg’s aggressive approach to it, especially given the closeness of their relationship. Then in talking with a friend, it was suggested to me that Greg may be feeling like the Psalmist in Ps. 55 (v12 - 14):

12 If an enemy were insulting me,
I could endure it;
if a foe were raising himself against me,
I could hide from him.
13 But it is you, a man like myself,
my companion, my close friend,
14 with whom I once enjoyed sweet fellowship
as we walked with the throng at the house of God.

While I certainly don’t think that Dr. Beckwith’s return to the Church is an insult to anyone at all, I can see where a fervent Evangelical like Greg Koukl could view it as such.

Ed

 

[Teflon93]

I have been following the story of Dr. Beckwith’s reversion with interest. I want to echo the earlier comment noting his humility and charity in what must be a difficult situation.
I, too, was distressed upon first listening to the interview with Greg Koukl. I couldn’t understand Greg’s aggressive approach to it, especially given the closeness of their relationship. Then in talking with a friend, it was suggested to me that Greg may be feeling like the Psalmist in Ps. 55 (v12 - 14):

12 If an enemy were insulting me,
I could endure it;
if a foe were raising himself against me,
I could hide from him.
13 But it is you, a man like myself,
my companion, my close friend,
14 with whom I once enjoyed sweet fellowship
as we walked with the throng at the house of God.

While I certainly don’t think that Dr. Beckwith’s return to the Church is an insult to anyone at all, I can see where a fervent Evangelical like Greg Koukl could view it as such.

Ed

Beckwith returned to the Catholic Church, he didn’t become a Ba’al worshiper. Koukl was rude and apparently more interested in scoring points for his side in ambush than in having a dialogue with a friend. Hardly Christian behavior and one which doesn’t cast Koukl in a good light.

If you want a debate, ask for a debate. Bringing someone onto a public show under false pretenses is fundamentally dishonest and not the mark of true friendship nor true brotherhood.

 

[mgrfin]

I have been following the story of Dr. Beckwith’s reversion with interest. I want to echo the earlier comment noting his humility and charity in what must be a difficult situation.
I, too, was distressed upon first listening to the interview with Greg Koukl. I couldn’t understand Greg’s aggressive approach to it, especially given the closeness of their relationship. Then in talking with a friend, it was suggested to me that Greg may be feeling like the Psalmist in Ps. 55 (v12 - 14):

12 If an enemy were insulting me,
I could endure it;
if a foe were raising himself against me,
I could hide from him.
13 But it is you, a man like myself,
my companion, my close friend,
14 with whom I once enjoyed sweet fellowship
as we walked with the throng at the house of God.

While I certainly don’t think that Dr. Beckwith’s return to the Church is an insult to anyone at all, I can see where a fervent Evangelical like Greg Koukl could view it as such.

Ed

I think that the words of the Psalmist could be better applied to Dr. Beckwith; he didn’t expect a friend to turn on him like that.
But, it is understandable. Kouki had a constituency that expected him to ‘defend’ their side, even if it meant appealing to the lower instincts in a man. They needed for Kouki to win points for their side.
Like the referee says to the prizefighters before the start of a bout:
“Protect yourself at all times. And come out fighting.”
Kouki did some low blows, rabbit punches, head butts, and eye gouges.

mgrfin

Feast of Assumption"
Graduale
Alleluia, Alleluia
Mary has been taken up into heaven;
the choirs of the angels rejoice.
Allelujia

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Kouki did some low blows, rabbit punches, head butts, and eye gouges.

Some straw-kwondo too!

 

[Palladio]

Some straw-kwondo too!

Haven’t read the whole thread but Dr. F. B. also has a website Right Reason worth reading.

 

[DesertSaints]

Dr. Francis Beckwith, former Evangelical Protestant philosopher and president of the Evangelical Theological Society, has given his first full-length radio interview about his re-version to the Catholic Church. The interview really highlights all the in-depth study that this outstanding Protestant scholar did during his discernment process.

str.org/site/PageServer

That link didn’t go to anything about Beckwith.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

That link didn’t go to anything about Beckwith.

It goes to Greg Koukl’s Stand to Reason site. On that site is a link to the radio interview between Koukl and Beckwith.

 

[ecsouth]

Beckwith returned to the Catholic Church, he didn’t become a Ba’al worshiper. Koukl was rude and apparently more interested in scoring points for his side in ambush than in having a dialogue with a friend. Hardly Christian behavior and one which doesn’t cast Koukl in a good light.

If you want a debate, ask for a debate. Bringing someone onto a public show under false pretenses is fundamentally dishonest and not the mark of true friendship nor true brotherhood.

To clarify: I did not intend to offer a DEFENSE of Koukl’s actions, rather I was responding to Beckwith’s example of charity in this matter by trying to find a charitable EXPLANATION.
Personally, I am totally at a loss as to why some Protestants equate Catholicism with idolatry but the fact is they do. Given the choice between responding in anger and responding with charity, I see Beckwith taking the “high road” and I choose to give Koukl the benefit of the doubt just as Beckwith has.
Sure, my first thought would be to agree with your assessment of Koukl and his program. Beckwith’s reaction, however, lead me to second thought. I’m sorry if that came across as excusing rudeness, incivility, or anti-Catholicism.

Ed