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qui_est_ce
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Thank you!
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Cachonga
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Other Catholic apologist (i.e. - Sungenis, Matatics, Staples, etc…).
po18guy
Well-known member
Oh Oh! Fighting - well, disputational words!
You must know that “Rome” and “Roman” are up there with “Papist” as regards pejorative terms. How about “other Catholic apologists”?Ahhhhh… that’s better.
As to Mr. White, he is as convinced that he is 100% correct as is Slick Matt over at H.A.R.M. (did I get that acronym right?)
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rightness
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Yeah, that’s tough. Many converts, even the high profile ones, will bear such cross. Then think of the Mormons and Jehovah’s Witness converts where they teach that converts to other faith must be cut off. How can such religion claim to be that of love with such hypocrisy. The Prodigal Son parable has no place in those religions, apparently.
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Cachonga
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Sorry this is taking so long. Lots of things to go through (even found a new debate I hadn’t heard before). I’m not done looking up examples, but a quick example is as follows –
In the Great Debate I (Gerry Matatics, 1996) on the topic of the Marian doctrines, Gerry (and I’ve heard Tim Staples and others use this example as well) uses the example of Solomon and Bathsheba as an anti-type of Jesus and Mary. He points out that Bathsheba doesn’t get her request, and just dismisses this as the imperfection of anti-types.
However, it seems to me that as soon as Bathsheba made her request, Solomon understood 2 things very clearly. 1) She was making the request on behalf of someone else. 2) To grant the request would endanger his life, his mothers life, and his kingdom. At that point, Solomon had to stop being the son of Bathsheba, and be the King of Israel, making a just declaration and condemnation of his half-brother.
IF Mary could hear prayers and make petitions to Jesus on behalf of those who pray to her, wouldn’t Jesus know who the request was for, and what the result of granting the request would be? Why would Solomon be wise enough to put off sonship and put on kingship and pass a just sentence, and Jesus is expected to just bow to Mary’s request regardless of the consequences to His divine and perfect will?
How many more examples do you want?
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CelticWarlord
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I quite agree. It’s clear they get along very well and their debates are a refreshing event to watch.
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Darryl_B
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I have observed two things while listening to debates, it is not always true but I have seen it often enough to see the trend.
The protestant is always coming from the position of the back foot, the under dog and it becomes a win at all costs kind of approach to the topic. For some people it is this apologetic technique rather than the content that appeals to reason and persuasion.
It is also a very hard position to let go of because it is held on to so tightly.
The protestant is always coming from the position of the back foot, the under dog and it becomes a win at all costs kind of approach to the topic. For some people it is this apologetic technique rather than the content that appeals to reason and persuasion.
It is also a very hard position to let go of because it is held on to so tightly.
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laylow
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CARMAs to Mr. White, he is as convinced that he is 100% correct as is Slick Matt over at H.A.R.M. (did I get that acronym right?)
‘’’’’’’
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ziapueblo
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Really, the main issue which should be discussed in any conversation between a Catholic/Orthodox and protestant Christian is the Bible and the Bible alone. We as Catholics do not believe in Sola Scriptura so if it is not explicitly written in the Bible, it’s not an issue for us.
ZP
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Jimbo
Guest
He might one day, and he might never. Faith is a gift from God, and it might have been withheld up till now for some reason. Also, sometimes bowing to the right requires some humility (I’m not picking on the guy or saying he’s arrogant. I frequently have to be reminded to have humility). I listened to one apologist (Staples, I think but I can’t be sure) who said he ran across a person who was convinced of Catholicism, but couldn’t make the split because he would lose his job and maybe his family. It’s not an easy thing.
We should keep praying for him. Maybe one day he can come around and be like another Dr. Anders.
We should keep praying for him. Maybe one day he can come around and be like another Dr. Anders.
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anrmenchaca47
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can you please give me the Book, Chapter and Verse please so i can read through it? Thanks…
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anrmenchaca47
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Nevermind…I can google it.
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anrmenchaca47
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First of all, sorry for the late response.Daddy and Hubby expectations have been in high gear as of late. So my apologies…
John Chapter 2*(I’m sure you’ve heard this one before)* is a good example of what I consider prayers for intercession. His first miracle at the request of his mother at the wedding at Cana in which Jesus replenishes the wine. "3 When the wine ran short, the mother of Jesus said to him, ‘They have no wine’. 4[And] Jesus said to her , 'Woman, how does your concern affect me? My hour has not yet come.'5His mother said to the servers, ‘Do whatever he tells you’ (NAB St. Joseph Edition)
Two things to consider: 1.) If Jesus, who is God, knew before hand what needed to happen then he didn’t have to wait for his mother to express her concern for the wine shortage and would have done it without her mediation. 2.) She tells the servants “Do as he tells you” meaning she was most likley was approached by the servants because they knew who he already was.
Why is it impossible to have Saints hear our prayers? Why because their body is dead? Remember our God is a God of the living not a God of the dead.
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Cachonga
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No worries about the daddy/hubby expectations. I encounter those myself (with the added bonus of grandpa expectations).
anrmenchaca47:
I am aware of the argument that there is much rejoicing in heaven over the salvation of a lost sinner (Luke 15:7, 10), and the question is often asked, “How did they know the sinner was saved if they didn’t know what was happening here?” I would refer you to Luke 15:3-10 where we see that the good shepherd found the lost sheep and called his friends and neighbors to rejoice with him, and the woman found the lost coin. How do the saints know when someone is saved? Because Jesus tells them to rejoice with Him (that, I believe, is the clear meaning from the text of Scripture).
Remember that Jesus has 2 natures, and He voluntarily set aside His divine nature while He was among us, so He wouldn’t have known beforehand. But even if He did know, does not preclude the idea that He wanted Mary to be blessed by interceding for this need (I would hope we would agree that it is a blessing to intercede for one another). Of course God knows all our needs (look at Matt 6:7-8, which precedes His teaching of the Lord’s prayer).
This is pure speculation (unless you can give an official declaration by the Church that this is true). Mary obviously had some influence on the proceedings, which was why she could tell the servants what to do, and they may have mentioned to her that the wine was running out, but I find nothing in Scripture to indicate that the servants knew who Jesus was (other than a son of Mary).
First of all, the saints are described as being “asleep”. I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone ask me anything while I was asleep. Of course, they are alive with Christ in heaven, but that’s a different place. To use a real-life example, my best friend lived in another city about 100 miles from here. We could call each other and talk anytime, day or night. Sadly, he passed away a few years ago, and was buried in his city. I believe he’s in heaven, but my cell phone doesn’t reach there. I don’t have his phone #, email, or twitter account for his residence in heaven. In short, how can I effectively communicate with him? Obviously, I can’t. Why? Because he’s in another place, and none of our current technology can reach him. On the other hand, you can pray to God anytime, anywhere, and He will hear you. Why would you even consider bothering someone who’s “asleep”? I agree wholeheartedly that God is a God of the living, but that does not mean there is open communication between us here on Earth and those who are “asleep”.
I am aware of the argument that there is much rejoicing in heaven over the salvation of a lost sinner (Luke 15:7, 10), and the question is often asked, “How did they know the sinner was saved if they didn’t know what was happening here?” I would refer you to Luke 15:3-10 where we see that the good shepherd found the lost sheep and called his friends and neighbors to rejoice with him, and the woman found the lost coin. How do the saints know when someone is saved? Because Jesus tells them to rejoice with Him (that, I believe, is the clear meaning from the text of Scripture).
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anrmenchaca47
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I’m going to address your responses one at a time if that is ok with you…
1.)Yes I agree he has two natures…however something sticks out to me which says he knew what he was expected to do in which required his divine nature to kick in “And Jesus said to her 'O woman what have you to do with me? My hour has not yet come”(Jn 2:1 Ignatius Study Bible) Why would Jesus say this particular phrase? Because of Mary’s request. Being God he knew what needed to be done at her request. Following the commandments he honored his mother by doing what was asked on her behalf.
2.) If you and I agree the Jesus is indeed God then it stands to reason the Mary IS blessed by God. "Luke 1:40 and when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the child leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit 42 and she exclaimed with a loud cry, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!”(Ignatius Study Bible)
I disagree with you on this comment about hte preclusion of the idea. Scripturally speaking Luke mentions her as being blessed. She is Theotokos(God-bearer)…God would not have chosen her if she was with sin. right? Jesus is the word made flesh. The pureness of the word in the pureness of the vessel. But to stay on point here, her intercession at the wedding was crucial. She herself even knows that her son is God in the flesh. Even though she needed a savior, momma still asked him for help and he(even though his hour had not yet come but can’t disrespect momma) did what was asked.
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Cachonga
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Let’s break this down…
anrmenchaca47:
< …cont…>
No question that Jesus knew who He was and what He was sent to do. As to why Jesus would use this phrase, Scripture doesn’t tell us. What Scripture does make clear is that Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever (Heb 13:8), so I don’t believe He changed in any way because of Mary’s intercession (not then, not now, not ever).
Here you are ignoring the Kingship of Jesus (that is, what would Jesus do AS KING – remember the example of Solomon?). God established His plan before the foundation of the world (see Heb 4:3). Can you say that Mary didn’t bring it to His attention a few minutes before He was supposed to do what He did? Jesus would have begun His ministry on time regardless of Mary’s intercession, but because Mary did intercede, she has a blessing for being involved in His first miracle. Isn’t that honoring to Mary?
As are all true believers.
True, but why would Luke 1:42 the only time Mary was blessed? Seems a very weak argument for a Church that believes in “excess merit”.
This comes from the Council of Nicea (really), and was meant to say something about Jesus, not to elevate Mary.
Says who? If God can forgive a sinner like Peter, Paul, or even me, why couldn’t He also forgive Mary? Where do you find this idea in anything that is God-breathed? You’re relying on philosophy more than theology, and I would assert that is a dangerous thing to do.
< …cont…>
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Cachonga
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This all goes back to what has already been stated. God does not change; Jesus performed the miracle as God had established from the foundation of the world; Mary was blessed for her intercession, but her intercession did not change God’s plan in any way, shape or form. The idea that Mary had to be sinless (or “immaculately conceived”) is based more on tradition and philosophy than Scripture.
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Isearch
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Here is a scriptural support for invocation of the saints:
I know it comes from the deuterocanonicals, which are not accepted by most Protestants. But, stating that the invocation of the saints is in anyway “unscriptural” is considered untrue for many Christians from churches with apostolic origins, who accept these books as part of the inspired scriptures.
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Cachonga
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I may be missing something. Exactly where does this tell us it’s OK to pray to saints that are “asleep”? What gives the idea that we can ask (or invoke) anything from someone we do not have direct communication with? How does this indicate that we, on earth, can communicate with those in heaven? It appears to me that this whole section is nothing more than a recount of what Elijah had done and will do (fulfilled to some extent in John the Baptist). I don’t see him being “invoked” in any way. Nothing is asked of him, there is no petition made to God through him, and yet this is supposed to be Scriptural support for the practice? Even IF Sirach was Scripture, I don’t see this as giving any support to the invocation of the saints. Let those who are asleep in Christ rest in peace!
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twf
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I was born and raised a “Bible believing, born again” Evangelical Christian. I became Catholic after years of study because Protestantism is, to be blunt, theologically, historically, and logically incoherent…
Not to derail the thread, but the foundational doctrine of “Sola Scriptura” collapses in on itself after the most superficial examination. A topic for another thread.
Not to derail the thread, but the foundational doctrine of “Sola Scriptura” collapses in on itself after the most superficial examination. A topic for another thread.
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