Dr. Sam Bacchiocchi

[pastormoon]

Dear Christian Brothers and Sisters,

My writings are not to offend anyone. Please forgive me if any of you found my writings offensive.

Please don’t take personally as I would try my best to describe the facts, just the facts. Please correct me if any of the facts listed in my writings are inaccurate.

I searched for “The Catholic 10 Commandments” and found this:

1. I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not have strange gods before me.
2. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain
3. Remember thou keep the Sabbath Day.
4. Honor thy Father and thy Mother
5. Thou shalt not kill.
6. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
7. Thou shalt not steal.
8. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
9. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife.
10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s goods.

I am sure above commandments are well known.

If you would compare “The Catholic 10 Commandments” with Exodus chapter 20 of the Latin Vulgate Bible (Catholic Version of Holy Scriptures commissioned by Pope Damascus and written by Saint Jerome about the year 382 AD) where “The Catholic 10 Commandments” were from, you will notice that indeed one commandment is missing.

“The Catholic 10 Commandments” omitted one commandment (the 3rd, sequence wise) and divided the 10th commandment.

I believe Latin Vulgate Bible is the official Bible of the Catholic church right?

In closing, here are few historical statements by someone whom we well know.

 In response to the question, "Have you any other way of proving that the church has power to institute festivals of precept?", Stephen Keenan wrote, "Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her--she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority." --Stephen Keenan, *A Doctrinal Catechism, *p. 174**

 "You may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday.  The Scripture enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify."--Cardinal Gibbons, *Faith of Our Fathers, *p. 111, 112**

May our Father God have mercy on us as we continue to search His Word!

“The truth shall set you free!” Jesus said…

Love in Christ,

Pastor Moon

 

[SPH1]

Moon,

1. The “Catholic 10 Commandments” is a shortened version for use in a Catechism. The full commandments are listed in all Catholic Bibles.
2. The Catholic catechism numbering is similar to that of the Luther/Lutheran Small Catechism. See:
   emmanuelypsi.org/believe/small-cath.html
3. With regard to Church “festivals”, Christ gave His Church full authority to teach. As an aid in teaching, the Church has full autority do develop and use a liturgical calendar.
4. The Church calendar is not pagan…unless you think that pagans were celebrating the birth and resurrection of Christ. In that case, see no. 5 below.
5. Read this link, it will “prove” that Christianity itself is a pagan clone: The World’s Sixteen Crucified Saviors (or Christianity Before Christ)
   infidels.org/library/historical/kersey_graves/16/index.html
6. Whatever Cardinal Gibbon may have said, his view alone is not the magisterium of the Church. Just as individual Early Church Fathers are not.

IMO, SDA’s are the largest disseminators of anti-Catholic propaganda today.

 

[pastormoon]

Blessings to you!

For the record, I am not an anti-Catholic! I am a God fearing Christian who is striving to learn more about God and His truth!

With Christ’s cordiality I greet you! I’ll do my best to respond to your comments with sincerely and brotherly love:

SPH1 wrote:
“1. The “Catholic 10 Commandments” is a shortened version for use in a Catechism. The full commandments are listed in all Catholic Bibles.”

My reply:
I hope that is indeed the case. I just find it interesting that the following is omitted in the “shortened” version of “The Catholic 10 Commandments”. By the way, don’t you think “The Bible 10 Commandments” is better than the term “The Catholic 10 Commandments”? Anyways, the following is omitted in “The Shortened Catholic 10 Commandments”: “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.”

As I read above quote from the “Catholic Latin Vulgate Bible”, I wonder why that commandment was not included in the “shortened” “Catholic 10 Commandments”… If it was included, I am sure it would make a lot of people uncomfortable especially when we are used to praying to the images of many Saints. Why was that commandment not included in “The Shortened Catholic 10 Commandments”? Is there a reason why?

However, I am encouraged to know that we all Christians have same 10 Commandments, including the Catholic Vulgate except the “shortened” version of the Catholic 10 Commandments.

SPH1 wrote:
2. The Catholic catechism numbering is similar to that of the Luther/Lutheran Small Catechism. See:
emmanuelypsi.org/believe/small-cath.html

My response:
Yes, Luther said “Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, Sola Scriptura: Grace Alone! Faith Alone! Scripture Alone!” and I agree with Him and also what the Lutherans believe regarding their fundamental approach to the Scripture. However, that does not change the fact that the portion of The Bible 10 Commandments were left out in both shortened version of both Catholic and Lutheran Church. I observe that some worship religious rituals are similar between the two denominations. Again, this does not change the fact that both Catholic Latin Vulgate Bible and Lutheran Bible both have in the Bible what is omitted in their 10 Commandments. Is it a coincidence? Maybe yes, maybe not…

SPH1 wrote:
3. With regard to Church “festivals”, Christ gave His Church full authority to teach. As an aid in teaching, the Church has full authority do develop and use a liturgical calendar.

My reply:
Yes, I do believe that Catholics believe that the church has the authority to change God’s law! In fact, in the Catechism, it testifies that Sabbath is indeed the seventh day of the week which is the Saturday. However, it reads that the church changed it.

My inquiry is this, where in the Bible mentions that the church is given the authority to change God’s Word? You referred to Lutherans and they believe in Sola Scriptura–Scripture Alone. But the question is, where in the Bible it says that the Word of God gives permission to the churches to change God’s commandments/law or His Word?

I wish to know if there is such a passage in the Bible? I am sure we all know that the Latin Vulgate Bible was translated from the Hebrew Bible… I can’t seem to find anywhere in the Bible where it permits any man or the organization to change His commandments/law!

(to be continued)

 

[pastormoon]

SPH1 wrote:
4. The Church calendar is not pagan…unless you think that pagans were celebrating the birth and resurrection of Christ. In that case, see no. 5 below.

My reply:
I agree with you that Jesus’ resurrection is significant. But nowhere in the Bible Jesus asked His disciples to worship on Sunday. In fact, Jesus predicted that the seventh day Sabbath will be kept even at the time of the destruction of the temple in A.D. 70 by Romans. I believe in Matthew 24:20 Jesus prophesied the destruction of the temple. Jesus asked them to pray that the day of destruction would not fall on the Sabbath day.

Well, Jesus kept the seventh day Sabbath, His disciples kept the Sabbath including Peter, and even Paul! Nowhere in the Bible it says that we should worship on the day of |Jesus’ resurrection. Even the last book of the Scripture, Revelation chapter 14 speaks of the importance of remember our God as our Creator. We all know Sabbath is all about worshiping God as our Creator.

I found it interesting that the Scripture says that we would keep the Sabbath forever!

The anniversary day for my wife and I is most important because it reminds us that starting that day our relationship began. Sabbath is all about the fact that He created us and we started our relationship together with God as the Creator and His creation.

I am not against anyone worshiping on any day. Because everyday every moment should we worship God. If that’s the case, shouldn’t the Sabbath day should be our priority because God asked us to do so? I believe this is something for us to think about…

SPH1 wrote:
5. Read this link, it will “prove” that Christianity itself is a pagan clone: The World’s Sixteen Crucified Saviors (or Christianity Before Christ)
infidels.org/library/hist…/16/index.html

My reply:
I am sure people can say whatever they want to say but their “sayings” have the truth? I mean the Biblical truth? Can they back it up from the Scripture? Again, something to think about…

SPH1 wrote:
6. Whatever Cardinal Gibbon may have said, his view alone is not the magisterium of the Church. Just as individual Early Church Fathers are not.

My reply:
Even if what the Cardinal Gibbon is saying is the Biblical truth? Are you going to dismiss the facts? Would you rather follow someone’s words rather than the Word of God?

The Convert’s Catechism writes: “We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the council of Laodicea (A.D. 336). Transfered the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.”

Not because the Bible says so or Jesus said so but because the Catholic Church said so. I don’t know about you but this statement concerns me. The Roman Catholic Church sold indulgences, required pilgrimages, required penitence, required many more and still requires so much more for someone to be saved.

Didn’t Martin Luther found out from the Scripture that what the Church was teaching was not necessarily the Bible truth? Isn’t that why, after studying the Romans he said, Sola Gratia, Sola Fide! – Grace Alone! Faith Alone! Isn’t that what the Bible the Holy Scripture, the Word of God is teaching?

Conclusion from the Bible

**Deuteronomy 4:2
"Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it.

Matthew 5:17-19
“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one title will by no means pass from the Law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven…”

Revelation 14:6, 7, 12
“Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water… Here is the patience of the saints, here are they that keep the commandments of God and the Faith of Jesus.”**

Here is my prayer to you: “The LORD will give strength unto his people; the LORD will bless his people with peace.”

See you in heaven my beloved brothers and sisters! Blessings to you!

Love in Christ,

Pastor Moon

 

[servus]

Moon,

1. Read this link, it will “prove” that Christianity itself is a pagan clone: The World’s Sixteen Crucified Saviors (or Christianity Before Christ)
   infidels.org/library/historical/kersey_graves/16/index.htmlQUOTE}

If you think Chrisitanity is a pagan clone, you are fooling yourself. “But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel preached after of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ” Galatians 1:11-12

I have a whole class at my university about this subject. What you dont understand is that satan created paganism, God gave us Judeao Christianity. Satan before he fell understood the plan of salvation, he was standing next to God as a covering cherub in the heavenly sanctuary (Ezekiel ch. 28). And the “Lamb slain before the foundation of the world” Jesus was known to satan before he fell. Therefore he so closely counterfeited God’s plan of salvation, and religion, and make it so we struggle today.

THis is why we can only trust the Bible. Not plato, not virgil, not Aristotle, but only the Bible. Every other source of faith only opens the door to sin, and most unfortunately, it serves decisively to cloud our understanding of the nature and charachter of God.

 

[jim1130]

pastormoon:

In response to the question, “Have you any other way of proving that the church has power to institute festivals of precept?”, Stephen Keenan wrote, “Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her–she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.” --Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism, p. 174

Did you come up with that all on your own, from in-depth schoalrly research? Or just cut-and-paste? Hmmmmm…biblesabbath.org/tss/487/christia.html

“You may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scripture enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify.”–Cardinal Gibbons, Faith of Our Fathers, p. 111, 112

Again, I ask, did you come up with that all on your own, from in-depth schoalrly research? Or just cut-and-paste? Hmmmmm…

biblesabbath.org/tss/487/christia.html or youthforgod.net/tcots.html)

I listed Web site where these quotes may be found since you opted to leave them out lest your further undermine your own credibility by showing the pathetic way that the SDAs peddle their poison.

Can you not come up with something more original than to cut-and-paste from the SDA anti-Catholic cheat-sheet? If it was not so sad then it would be funny (that SDAs try to present the same age-old, worn-out, and tired arguments that have been proven false by Catholics for years). The tragedy is that you and other SDAs post these “questions”, but never hear our answers, so obsessed are you with cutting-an-pasting more lies.

Rather than waste everyone’s time just do an SDA search here on Catholic Answers and you will find all of your arguments well refuted. If you continue to perpetuate your own ignorance then I, for one, will have no sympathy, compassion, or charity for you. Many SDAs, such as yourself, have come onto this site promoting they are not anti-Catholic, but after they are challenged and shown the false doctrine they subscribe their true colors show and the latent hostility they feel toward the Catholic Church rears its ugly and malignant head.

The Catholic Church can prove and defend Sunday worship. Your issue should be with the non-Catholic Churches who deny Apostolic Succession, but yet embrace Sunday worship. Well documented proof exists of that well before the infamous 130 AD that SDAs like to throw out (after they gave up on the Constantine-invented-Catholicism-in-the-4th-century argument was repeatedly disproved) that Catholics worshipped on Sunday, the first day of the week, the eighth day.

If you are looking for honesty then here is a great Web site with plenty of different links about SDA: angelfire.com/ms/seanie/adventism/aindex.html

May you find the truth (i.e. Catholic Church) rather than be a distributor of deceit and deception.

 

[amills]

Pastor Moon,

Again you have errored in your analysis of material - by using unofficial sources you have concluded that Catholics pray to statues and images and you have distorted the catechism.

Let me tell you a short story. One day I went to an SDA church and the pastor gave a sermon on the ten commandments. He centered it around the Catholics having omitted one commandment and now pray to statues and images. As a Catholic I was quite astounded - I know, that I did not pray to statues and images and I certainly never knew any Catholic who did. As I listened to him I opened my Catholic bible and sure enough there at Exodus 20 all the commandments were in place. I was very disturbed that the pastor would tell such lies.

Pastor Moon - Catholics do not pray to statues and images anymore than you pray to the monuemnts in Washington DC (I hope that you do not)

Thank you so much for asking for truth. Again let me emphasize that you should look at official documents to determine the real beliefs of the Catholic Church. Most certainly do not read the Great Controversy because it is really inaccurate!

 

[pastormoon]

In response to the above 3 emails:

Greetings in Christ!

It troubles me to see jim1130 making an issue out of the two quotes in my earlier postings.

Quotes are supposed to be quoted! You can’t change what the person said if you are quoting someone. I quoted these two very significant quotes and jim1130 decided to make an issue out of the way how I quoted rather than responding to these quotes.

I believe what brother jim1130 did was to cut and paste the links without giving any Biblically basis in his own words. Of course I encourage him to quote from knowledgeable people but most importantly I encourage him to quote more from the Scripture.

Dear brother amills, it is good to know that Catholics don’t pray to the statues and images. Some of my Catholic friends told me that they do and I thought all the Catholics do pray to the statutes and images. Thank you for the clarification and I’ll mention to others that Catholics don’t pray to the statutes or the images.

I have a one question: If we, God fearing people don’t need to pray to the statues or the images or worship them why did we create so many statutes and images. Why don’t we follow what the Bible say: “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.” (Exodus 20:4)

One more question to amills, I am wondering whether you could show me from the Bible that earthly priest is someone who can forgive people’s sins! I am well aware of the earthly sanctuary mentioned in the Bible and know quite well that even previous earthly priests, including Aaron the high priest didn’t have the authority to forgive sins. Could you show me from the Bible where God says that we should confess our sins to man and not to God?

What about the idea of Purgatory! Can you prove from the Bible that it was mentioned and proved somewhere in the Bible about the idea of Purgatory. Because I tried to find it but could not find it.

What about the idea of the Immortality of the soul?

What about the idea of Prayers for the dead, the belief that our prayers make a difference with God in relieving suffering souls from the bondage of purgatory?

Regardless, I look forward to that day when we shall see Jesus and live forever with Him in heaven.

See you in heaven brothers and sisters when Jesus comes.

Thank you for reading my posts and I’ll try to visit in the future again.

Blessings to you!

Love in Christ,

Pastor Moon

 

[jim1130]

In response to the above 3 emails:

Greetings in Christ!

It troubles me to see jim1130 making an issue out of the two quotes in my earlier emails.

Quotes are supposed to be quoted! You can’t change what the person said if you are quoting someone. I quoted these two very significant quotes and jim1130 decided to make an issue out of the way how I quoted rather than respond to these quotes.

I believe what brother jim1130 did was to cut and paste the links without giving any Biblically basis in his own words. Of course I encourage him to quote from knowledgeable people but most importantly from the Scripture.

Dear brother amills, it is good to know that Catholics don’t pray to the statues and images. Some of my Catholic friends told me that they do and I thought all the Catholics do pray to the states and images. Thank you for the clarification and I’ll mention to others that Catholics don’t pray to the states or the images.

I have a one question: If we, God fearing people don’t need to pray to the statues or the images or worship them why did we create so many statutes and images. Why don’t we follow what the Bible say: “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.” (Exodus 20:4)

One more question to amills, I am wondering whether you could show me from the Bible that earthly priest is someone who can forgive people’s sins! I am well aware of earthly sanctuary and know quite well that even previous earthly priests, including Aaron the high priest didn’t have the authority to forgive sins. Could you show me from the Bible that God says that we should confess our sins to man and not to God?

What about the idea of Purgatory! Can you prove from the Bible that it was mentioned and proved somewhere in the Bible about the idea of Purgatory. Because I tried to find it but could not find it.

What about the idea of the Immortality of the soul?

What about the idea of Prayers for the dead, the belief that our prayers make a difference with God in relieving suffering souls from the bondage of purgatory?

Regardless, I look forward to that day when we shall see Jesus and live forever with Him in heaven.

See you in heaven brothers and sisters when Jesus comes.

Thank you for reading my posts and I’ll try to visit in the future again.

Blessings to you!

Love in Christ,

Pastor Moon

You are not interested in the truth, but only perpetuating the false doctrines of the SDA. You refer to the SDA “cheat sheet” and then expect us to say “Oh, my gosh! how wrong we Catholics are! A fallible person had an opinion.”

The issue is that you quote them from the same SDA rag that other SDAs quote: Without any independent thought. That is the issue, but you cannot see that. Anyone can cut-and-past from Web sites, and these cut-and-paste jobs are from the same anti-Catholic SDA garbage.

Do an SDA search ehre on CA and you will find answers to all your issues.

P.S. Please do not refer to me as your 'brother." I am not your “brother.” A “brother” does not deliberately bear false witness.

 

[pastormoon]

Why do you have to take it so personally when all you have to do is to show the truth from the Scripture?

All you have to do is to show me from the Word of God why some Catholics, if not all believe what I mentioned above.

Can you show me from the Scripture instead of attacking “SDAs”? By the way, I believe that they rather be referred to as “Adventists” rather than “SDAs”.

My God-fearing fellow believer of the Bible, please don’t take an offense to my postings. All you have to do is to show me from the Bible, the truth from the very Word of God and I will recant!!!

However, if you are going to spend more time being “anti-SDA” than show me the truth, I must question your Christian integrity.

I hope you are not suggesting that only the Catholics would be saved and be in heaven when Jesus comes…

Why would you not want to be called as my brother if you believe same God as I do? Why the need for hostility if we confessed that we have God’s love in us?

Blessings to you brother! As I said in my previous postings, see you in heaven!

Love in Christ,

^_____^

Pastor Moon

 

[jim1130]

Why do you have to take it so personally when all you have to do is to show the truth from the Scripture?

All you have to do is to show me from the Word of God why some Catholics, if not all believe what I mentioned above.

Can you show me from the Scripture instead of attacking “SDAs”? By the way, I believe that they rather be referred to as “Adventists” rather than “SDAs”.

My God-fearing fellow believer of the Bible, please don’t take an offense to my postings. All you have to do is to show me from the Bible, the truth from the very Word of God and I will recant!!!

However, if you are going to spend more time being “anti-SDA” than show me the truth, I must question your Christian integrity.
Pastor Moon

You are not interested in the truth and your passive-aggressive nature of attacking the Catholic Church is obvious and, yes, it is personal. You have proven that in your very posts. I guess we may as well take Andrew Greeley’s opinion as infallible, too.

You address your point of view from Bible alone and we address our point of view from Bible, Magesterium, and Tradition. You cut-and-paste from various sites, such as pathlights.com/theselastdays/tracts/tract_22h.htm, geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/1983/sabbath.htm, biblelight.net/, etc. most of which duplicate the exact same misinformation. You refer to the Bible, but have no understanding of its origin or its compilation, which makes you unable to accurately interpret nor do you have the authority to interpret it.

The Sabbath was the only ceremonial law of the 10 commandments so change to worship on the Lord’s Day is scriptural.

Col. 2:16-17 shows conclusively that the Sabbath law is no longer binding: ““Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of the Sabbath days: which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.”

The Gospel writers purposely reveal that Christ’s resurrection and appearances were on Sunday: Matt. 28:1; Mark 16:2,9; John 20:1,19

Acts 20:7 This is an example of Apostolic Tradition of gathering together to celebrate the Eucharist on Sunday

2 Thessolonians. 2:15 We are told to hold fast to apostolic tradition, whether it is oral or written, and the 2,000 year-old tradition of the Church is that the apostles changed the Sabbath day of worship from Saturday to Sunday.

The Power to Bind and Loose (Matthew 16:19 “ Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”) were technical rabbinical terms meaning, respectively, to forbid and permit, with regard to interpretations of Jewish Law. Also, this empowered to formulate Christian doctrine and to require allegiance to it, as well as to condemn heresies which were opposed to the true doctrine

John 20:19 “Now when it was late that same day, the first of the week, and the doors were shut, where the disciples were gathered together, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them: Peace be to you

Here are 10 Early Church Fathers who all say that the practice of Christians everywhere was to meet on Sunday, not the Jewish Saturday Sabbath (I will help you with your scholarly work by giving you quotes from 3 of the 7), and the Web site for you to visit yourself: earlychristianwritings.com/

Didache (The Teaching of the Twelve) of the Apostles (70-75) - "But every Lord’s day do ye gather yourselves together, and break bread.”

St. Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch (110) - " If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death–whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master……Let every friend of Christ keep the Lord’s day as a festival, the resurrection day, the queen and chief of all the days (of the week)"

St. Justin Martyr (100-165) – “Sunday…the first day…and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead.”

Epistle of Barnabas (120-150)

St. Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyons (178)

Bardiasan (born 154)

St. Cyprian, Bishop of Carthage (200-258)

Eusebius of Caesarea (315)

Peter, Bishop of Alexandria (300)

Epistle of Pliny (112)

And if you were my brother you owuld not bear false witness.

 

[Stephen_Korsman]

Why was that commandment not included in “The Shortened Catholic 10 Commandments”? Is there a reason why?

If you shorten something, you summarise it by concepts. Catholics consider “I am the Lord your God” (Jewish commandment #1) and “You shall have no other gods before me” (Jewish commandment #2, Adventist commandment #1, Catholic commandment #1) and “You shall not worship idols” (Jewish commandment #2, Adventist commandment #2, Cathlic commandment #1) to be the same concept - identification of the true God and prohibition of worship of others.

That is why part of the first commandment is not quoted in the abbreviated version.

this does not change the fact that both Catholic Latin Vulgate Bible and Lutheran Bible both have in the Bible what is omitted in their 10 Commandments. Is it a coincidence? Maybe yes, maybe not…

It is not a coincidence. Both view the first commandment as being the identification of the true God and the prohibition of others. They consider idols to be gods as well, and so consider the prohibition of these false gods to fall in with the prohibition of the others. No sinister reasons at all - just a concept both inherited from St Augustine, who thought about it that way.

Other Protestants, who number them differently, share their reasoning with the Eastern part of the Catholic Church under the pope, and separate the two.

Yes, I do believe that Catholics believe that the church has the authority to change God’s law! In fact, in the Catechism, it testifies that Sabbath is indeed the seventh day of the week which is the Saturday. However, it reads that the church changed it.

The Catechism of the Council of Trent says that the Apostles instituted Sunday observance. Pope John Paul said the same. Other sources are misinformed or misinterpreted.

You need to understand statements on Catholic practice in light of Catholic belief. The Catholic Church believes that the Apostles were the first leaders of the Catholic Church. Therefore “The Apostles did X” can, for a Catholic, mean “The Church did X.”

And the Apostles changed several laws - circumcision, for example. The Church cannot and has not changed eternal moral principles. But ritual requirements and calendrical issues are not considered eternal moral principles by either the Bible or the Catholic Church.

God bless,
Stephen

 

[Stephen_Korsman]

SPH1 wrote:
I agree with you that Jesus’ resurrection is significant. But nowhere in the Bible Jesus asked His disciples to worship on Sunday. In fact, Jesus predicted that the seventh day Sabbath will be kept even at the time of the destruction of the temple in A.D. 70 by Romans.

By the Jews, it was. If we read the passage in the context of Christians keeping the Sabbath, we must be concerned about Jesus’ comments about obstacles to fleeing from death. Winter would be a harsh time to have to flee. Pregnancy would make it difficult. The Sabbath? Either it would be difficult to flee, due to city gates locked by legalistic Jews and the like, or it would be an immoral act, breaking of the Sabbath, to flee for one’s life on that day. Consider Jesus’ allowing for the rescue of sheep out of pits on the Sabbath, and then wonder why fleeing from death on the Sabbath would be different. If fleeing on the Sabbath was a practical obstacle, then the passage says nothing about any command for Christians to keep the Sabbath. If fleeing on the Sabbath was a moral obstacle, then we make Jesus a hypocrite for allowing sheep to be rescued on the Sabbath, but not the saving of human lives.

Well, Jesus kept the seventh day Sabbath, His disciples kept the Sabbath including Peter, and even Paul! Nowhere in the Bible it says that we should worship on the day of |Jesus’ resurrection.

Jesus kept the Sabbath, but he lived under the Old Covenant, under the Law of Moses. Peter and Paul kept the Sabbath as Jews, but as Christians, the Bible is completely silent. Nowhere does it mention any Christian keeping the Sabbath. Nowhere does the New Testament contain a command to keep the Sabbath, or an example set for us by the Apostles and early Christians. Yes, I’m aware of Acts 13:13-44, and the other passages in Acts that Adventists use to argue that the early Christians kept the Sabbath. But these passages do not actually say what Adventists conclude from them. They are simply cases of Jewish gatherings on the Sabbath, used by Christians for the purposes of evangelism. The passages imply no obligation for Christians to worship with unbelieving Jews on the day. I have a series of articles on each of these verses here.

I found it interesting that the Scripture says that we would keep the Sabbath forever!

The Sabbath was called a perpetual sign for all generations. So was circumcision, the Levitical priesthood, and incense. So one needs to understand that in context.

Similarly, Isaiah 66 allegedly shows Christians keeping the Sabbath in heaven. But the same passage shows Levites and sacrifices. Obviously a depiction of worship using concepts the people Isaiah wrote to could identify with.

SPH1 wrote:
6. Whatever Cardinal Gibbon may have said, his view alone is not the magisterium of the Church. Just as individual Early Church Fathers are not.

My reply:
Even if what the Cardinal Gibbon is saying is the Biblical truth? Are you going to dismiss the facts?

The Catholic Church knows what it believes - that the Apostles instituted Sunday observance. So say both Pope John Paul II and the Catechism of the Council of Trent. Neither Catholicism nor most Protestant denominations consider Gibbons’ statements to be the best expression of biblical truth. Please don’t turn Gibbons into an authority he is not. We don’t claim David Koresh is an Adventist authority.

The Convert’s Catechism writes: “We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the council of Laodicea (A.D. 336). Transfered the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.”

Interpret most such comments in light of the Catholic view that the Apostles were the original leaders of the Catholic Church, and all it means is that the Apostles did so.

The Convert’s Catechism is clearly wrong on that issue. The Council of Laodicea was simply a local council regulating Sunday issues, not a council for the entire Church deciding new practices. Sunday observance had been in place for a very long time before 336 AD.

Matthew 5:17-19
“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one title will by no means pass from the Law till all is fulfilled. …”

Click here to see this passage interpreted in light of the biblical evidence. And consider that many jots and many tittles have passed from the law - circumcision, sacrifices, etc.

God bless,
Stephen

 

[amills]

Some of my Catholic friends told me that they do and I thought all the Catholics do pray to the statutes and images.

 

[amills]

I refer you to 2 Maccabees 43-46 "He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.

Thank you for your discussion. I would recommend you read early church fathers to see what they thought of these things since they were in fact taught by the apostles.

 

[jim1130]

I refer you to 2 Maccabees 43-46 "He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.

Thank you for your discussion. I would recommend you read early church fathers to see what they thought of these things since they were in fact taught by the apostles.

To add to the discussion…

Because purgatory (which is a process, not a place) is not explicitly mentioned by name some choose to dismiss it. When you consider that people willingly accept all the books of the bible even though no mention is made in any book, chapter, or verse of which books belong, I am surprised people are so quick to distance themselves from the concept of purgatory as “non Biblical.”

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” What does “the next” mean? Forgiveness is not necessary in Heaven and there is no forgiveness in Hell so Jesus was talking of another state (purgatory).

 

[SPH1]

Servus

Moon,

1. Read this link, it will “prove” that Christianity itself is a pagan clone: The World’s Sixteen Crucified Saviors (or Christianity Before Christ)
   infidels.org/library/historical/kersey_graves/16/index.html

You misread me. I’m Catholic, just making a point using SDA’s own methodology.

 

[SPH1]

pastor moon:

SPH1 wrote:
3. With regard to Church “festivals”, Christ gave His Church full authority to teach. As an aid in teaching, the Church has full authority do develop and use a liturgical calendar.

My reply:
Yes, I do believe that Catholics believe that the church has the authority to change God’s law! In fact, in the Catechism, it testifies that Sabbath is indeed the seventh day of the week which is the Saturday. However, it reads that the church changed it.

My inquiry is this, where in the Bible mentions that the church is given the authority to change God’s Word?

First, it isn’t Catholicism vs. God’s Word/Bible. Rather, it’s Catholicism vs. Adventisim (or whatever Protestant group at issue.) Your interpretation vs. our’s. What I call the second biggest lie of Protestantism is framing the issue as if it’s Catholicism vs. the Bible instead of some Protestant group’s interpretation. And Protestanism in general and Adventisim in particular have no ordained authority to teach whatsoever.

But let’s cut to the chase. Like Protestantism in general, IMO you belong to a Christ-denying mockery. The absurd notion that Christ - supposed head and “good Shepherd” of His Church - allowed it to go into apostasy for 1,000 plus years. That some earthly ruler (i.e., Constantine) or some monk’s supposed copying error in Scripture could throw the Church off course.

But is Christ’s Church really that fragile? Wouldn’t it then be a house built on sand

You do not really believe that Christ is head of His Church, except perhaps in some obviously ineffective, symbolic sense.

That’s the greatest difference between you and I, and it’s the source of all of your errors.

 

[jim1130]

"pastor moon:

Yes, I do believe that Catholics believe that the church has the authority to change God’s law! In fact, in the Catechism, it testifies that Sabbath is indeed the seventh day of the week which is the Saturday. However, it reads that the church changed it.

My inquiry is this, where in the Bible mentions that the church is given the authority to change God’s Word?

First, it isn’t Catholicism vs. God’s Word/Bible. Rather, it’s Catholicism vs. Adventisim (or whatever Protestant group at issue.) Your interpretation vs. our’s. What I call the second biggest lie of Protestantism is framing the issue as if it’s Catholicism vs. the Bible instead of some Protestant group’s interpretation. And Protestanism in general and Adventisim in particular have no ordained authority to teach whatsoever.

But let’s cut to the chase. Like Protestantism in general, IMO you belong to a Christ-denying mockery. The absurd notion that Christ - supposed head and “good Shepherd” of His Church - allowed it to go into apostasy for 1,000 plus years. That some earthly ruler (i.e., Constantine) or some monk’s supposed copying error in Scripture could throw the Church off course.

But is Christ’s Church really that fragile? Wouldn’t it then be a house built on sand

You do not really believe that Christ is head of His Church, except perhaps in some obviously ineffective, symbolic sense.

That’s the greatest difference between you and I, and it’s the source of all of your errors.

You may begin with Isaiah 22:22 and Matthew 16:16-19 to show authority and that the Gates of Hell would not prevail…

or

…or Matt. 18:17-18 that shows the Church (not Scripture) is the final authority on questions of faith…

or

…Matthew. 28:20 where Jesus says he will be with the Church always…

…but then it is not the answer sought by those who are pretending to seek the truth.

 

[jim1130]

Pastor moon:

Yes, I do believe that Catholics believe that the church has the authority to change God’s law! In fact, in the Catechism, it testifies that Sabbath is indeed the seventh day of the week which is the Saturday. However, it reads that the church changed it.

Christ gave authority to St. Peter and the Church (Matthew 16:16-19).
Pastor moon:

My inquiry is this, where in the Bible mentions that the church is given the authority to change God’s Word?

You place a lot of credibility in the Bible without understanding its origins. For example, how do you know that the 73 books in the Bible actually belong in the Bible? By what authority do you concur with their inclusion? After all, no book in the Bible dictates which books belong and which books do not belong. so, whose word are you going to take that the 73 books actually belong in the Bible?

What I find pecliar is this: You deny the Catholic Church and with her the authority to change worship to the Lord’s Day, even though Christ delegated authority as mentioned above, but, without knowing it, you actually assign the Catholic Church the authority to determine which books belong in the Bible and which do not. After all, it was the Holy Spirit working through the Catholic Church that gave us the Bible that you passionately embrace and try to use against her.

Realistically, then if you deny the Catholic Church and deny the authority of the Catholic Church then you actually deny the Bible, too. You cannot have it both ways.