Dramatic move as Synod Fathers set out new pastoral care for gays, cohabiting couples and divorcees

[gilliam]

Cardinal Dolan and Archbishop Kaigama today:

Cardinal Dolan: “What do they call it, the Richter Scale, for earthquakes? I didn’t feel it moving this morning. We had a great conversation on this relatio, which is a draft, an attempt to kind of sum up what was said by the bishops of the world last week. It was very honest and many of the bishops said, oh, this is a great draft, a good idea, but it’s not the final word and we’re going to have a lot to say about it. And there were some that said we probably in our final statement need to be much more assertive about the timeless teaching of the Church. I didn’t see anything earthquake. It’s pretty much the teaching of the Church that while any acts, any sexual acts outside the loving, faithful, life-giving bond of a man and a women in marriage is contrary to what God intends – that’s timeless Church teaching – but on the other hand we treat people that are unable to live up to that teaching with immense dignity and respect. That’s always been the Church’s teaching. An articulation of that today was there in the relatio but I don‘t know if that’s dramatic and I don’t know if that’s the final way it is going to be expressed.”

Archbishop Kaigama: “The synod is not a referendum. We’re not here to vote on this, on that. It’s a discussion, a conversation about our faith. And it is a year-long conversation because we are having another synod in October next year. What we decide or talk about now is also going to be part of what we shall talk about in a year’s time. So there’s nothing definitive that is going to be issued from this synod in the sense that this is the law, this is the doctrine, we change all the doctrines, change everything. No, no, I don’t think that is the aim of this synod. It is about talking.”

---

Cardinal Dolan: “First of all a synod can’t change doctrine. Nobody can. And a synod is more conversational. I mean, if the Holy Father wanted to give serious consideration to some point of established Church doctrine or discipline it would take an Ecumenical Council to do that. This is more bishops getting together to speak about pastoral challenges. So to change doctrine is not part of our agenda.”

Read more: patheos.com/blogs/kathrynlopez/2014/10/no-earthquake-in-rome-cardinal-dolan-emphasizes-continuing-conversation-not-doctrinal-shifts/#ixzz3G55o9o7x

 

[gracepoole]

Homosexual desires, however, are not in themselves sinful. People are subject to a wide variety of sinful desires over which they have little direct control, but these do not become sinful until a person acts upon them, either by acting out the desire or by encouraging the desire and deliberately engaging in fantasies about acting it out. People tempted by homosexual desires, like people tempted by improper heterosexual desires, are not sinning until they act upon those desires in some manner.

catholic.com/tracts/homosexuality

 

[PTL]

Exactly. But can this kind of language and the confusing message really help people come back? I’m well aware what the church has been saying on these matters and I don’t disagree, but to present it all to make mortal sin sound so *harmless *… that’s a completely different story.

I completely share your feeling. All I can say is the end time is right here. Remember the Bible says at end time there will be many false prophets?

What was expressed from the synod sounds to me that everything is OK. I guess soon there will be no “mortal sin” any more. The Church is now progressive.

 

[anon99031074]

Some may hope that they will overturn Jesus’ prohibition of divorce, but I don’t think that will happen either.

Nobody hopes they will do that. The Orthodox Church has not overturned Jesus’ prohibition of divorce. They simply recognize that some people have destroyed their marriage bond, in violation of Jesus’ teaching. The marriage is non-existent, dissolved, wiped out, even though Jesus said they shouldn’t break the marriage bond. And so, as an act of mercy, recognizing the human condition in all its weakness, they grant forgiveness through the sacrament of reconciliation, and a new chance to marry. This is not accepting divorce. It is forgiving it, and giving a second chance, something Jesus does all the time.

 

[JustaSinner]

Paul quotes that warn of us our desires to judge the behaviors of others:

“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”

“Let us therefore no longer pass judgment on one another, but resolve instead never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of another. … Welcome one another, therefore, as Christ welcomed you, for the glory of God.”

But then it was Paul who said…

“I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, she must be silent.”

Paul was kind of all over the place. He contradicted himself often which is why he’s frequently targeted by atheists. Let’s just say Paul is not the shining star of our faith, but we love him anyway. And just like we love our broken sinful Paul, we should love all of our gay brothers and sisters just the same.

So men speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit in the Sacred Scriptures are in error? Christians (Catholic, Protestant, etc.) have obeyed this inerrant and infallible command of Sacred Scripture in 1 Timothy 2:12 for nearly 2000 years–i.e. all male priesthood/presbyters (although some of my Protestant brothers have gone off the track on this command in the past century).

As St. Aquinas says quoting 1 Timothy 2:12 on this matter:
Article 1. Whether the female sex is an impediment to receiving Orders? Objection 1. It would seem that the female sex is no impediment to receiving Orders…On the contrary, It is said (1 Timothy 2:12): “I suffer not a woman to teach (in the Church),* nor to use authority over the man.”

 

[alwaysthinkin]

Mutatio gratia mutationis (change for the sake of change)

In organizational theory, such can make any organization unstable.

Just something I learned in graduate business school (attended with priests, btw).

Just sayin…

It’s not for the sake of change. It’s for the sake of matching the culture better. Maybe even getting some financial flow from those that have railed against the Church for centuries.

In a word, selling out.

 

[gracepoole]

I completely share your feeling. All I can say is the end time is right here. Remember the Bible says at end time there will be many false prophets?

What was expressed from the synod sounds to me that everything is OK. I guess soon there will be no “mortal sin” any more. The Church is now progressive.

Who exactly are the “false prophets” in this situation?

 

[JimG]

Nobody hopes they will do that. The Orthodox Church has not overturned Jesus’ prohibition of divorce. They simply recognize that some people have destroyed their marriage bond, in violation of Jesus’ teaching. The marriage is non-existent, dissolved, wiped out, even though Jesus said they shouldn’t break the marriage bond. And so, as an act of mercy, recognizing the human condition in all its weakness, grant forgiveness through the sacrament of reconciliation, and a new chance to marry. This is not accepting divorce. It is forgiving it, and giving a second chance, something Jesus does all the time.

And that would require the Church to take the Orthodox view of the marriage bond as inherently breakable, and I don’t think that will happen either.

In fact if it did happen, I predict it would result in even more divorces, since couples would in effect say, “wait, we won’t even need an annulment! We, or just I, can break this marriage bond!” Catholic divorce would then in perfectly aligned with civil divorce.

 

[anon99031074]

So men speaking under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit in the Sacred Scriptures are in error? Christians (Catholic, Protestant, etc.) have obeyed this inerrant and infallible command of Sacred Scripture in 1 Timothy 2:12 for nearly 2000 years–i.e. all male priesthood/presbyters (although some of my Protestant brothers have gone off the track on this command in the past century).

As St. Aquinas says quoting 1 Timothy 2:12 on this matter:
Article 1. Whether the female sex is an impediment to receiving Orders? Objection 1. It would seem that the female sex is no impediment to receiving Orders…On the contrary, It is said (1 Timothy 2:12): “I suffer not a woman to teach (in the Church),* nor to use authority over the man.”

Yes, the scriptures are filled with errors, conflicting theologies, scientific errors, and worst of all, serious moral errors (slavery, genocide, bloodthirsty and angry God, etc. It is when they are interpreted within the bounds of a living tradition, enlightened by the fruits of the spirit, that the interpreted message can represent the divine message to us in our culture.

 

[PTL]

Who exactly are the “false prophets” in this situation?

A prophet tells the truth from God.
A false prophet tells the opposite.

 

[JackVk]

It’s not for the sake of change. It’s for the sake of matching the culture better. Maybe even getting some financial flow from those that have railed against the Church for centuries.

In a word, selling out.

I don’t know where you’re getting this idea of “selling out”. This document affirms the sinfulness of homosexual actions. All it is saying is that homosexual persons are not to be treated like garbage simply because they are gay.

Put yourself in their shoes. Say you were a homosexual wanting the healing of Christ. As you go to the confessional, the priest kicks you out of the church, shouting “get lost, fudge packer!”

Because that is what this document is saying to avoid.

 

[ProVobis]

The Holy Spirit works through all pontiffs – we need to trust in that in order to be Catholic.

Let’s be careful with these types of arguments. Protestants believe the Holy Spirit guides them too.

Just sayin…

 

[anon99031074]

And that would require the Church to take the Orthodox view of the marriage bond as inherently breakable, and I don’t think that will happen either.

In fact if it did happen, I predict it would result in even more divorces, since couples would in effect say, “wait, we won’t even need an annulment! We, or just I, can break this marriage bond!” Catholic divorce would then in perfectly aligned with civil divorce.

There are not more divorces in the Orthodox Church than in the Catholic Church. Furthermore, the Catholic Church already teaches that the marriage bond is “inherently breakable”, since it allows divorce and remarriage when the marriage is not considered sacramental. But Jesus did not single out sacramental marriages as being singularly unbreakable. He was speaking to Jews who were not baptized, when he told them “let no man separate”.

 

[adrift]

Their sexual orientation is not considered “intrinsically disordered” in the Catholic church.

.

I am not sure what you mean by “orientation” but I consider it to mean the same as inclination which according to the Catechism is “intrinsically disordered”

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible.** This inclination, which is objectively disordered**, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

 

[JimG]

Yes, the scriptures are filled with errors, conflicting theologies, scientific errors, and worst of all, serious moral errors (slavery, genocide, bloodthirsty and angry God, etc. It is when they are interpreted within the bounds of a living tradition, enlightened by the fruits of the spirit, that the interpreted message can represent the divine message to us in our culture.

Um, are you saying, we now know better?

 

[alwaysthinkin]

Cardinal Dolan and Archbishop Kaigama today:

Cardinal Dolan: “What do they call it, the Richter Scale, for earthquakes? I didn’t feel it moving this morning. We had a great conversation on this relatio, which is a draft, an attempt to kind of sum up what was said by the bishops of the world last week. It was very honest and many of the bishops said, oh, this is a great draft, a good idea, but it’s not the final word and we’re going to have a lot to say about it. And there were some that said we probably in our final statement need to be much more assertive about the timeless teaching of the Church. I didn’t see anything earthquake. It’s pretty much the teaching of the Church that while any acts, any sexual acts outside the loving, faithful, life-giving bond of a man and a women in marriage is contrary to what God intends – that’s timeless Church teaching – but on the other hand we treat people that are unable to live up to that teaching with immense dignity and respect. That’s always been the Church’s teaching. An articulation of that today was there in the relatio but I don‘t know if that’s dramatic and I don’t know if that’s the final way it is going to be expressed.”

Archbishop Kaigama: “The synod is not a referendum. We’re not here to vote on this, on that. It’s a discussion, a conversation about our faith. And it is a year-long conversation because we are having another synod in October next year. What we decide or talk about now is also going to be part of what we shall talk about in a year’s time. So there’s nothing definitive that is going to be issued from this synod in the sense that this is the law, this is the doctrine, we change all the doctrines, change everything. No, no, I don’t think that is the aim of this synod. It is about talking.”

---

Cardinal Dolan: “First of all a synod can’t change doctrine. Nobody can. And a synod is more conversational. I mean, if the Holy Father wanted to give serious consideration to some point of established Church doctrine or discipline it would take an Ecumenical Council to do that. This is more bishops getting together to speak about pastoral challenges. So to change doctrine is not part of our agenda.”

Read more: patheos.com/blogs/kathrynlopez/2014/10/no-earthquake-in-rome-cardinal-dolan-emphasizes-continuing-conversation-not-doctrinal-shifts/#ixzz3G55o9o7x

They know darn well they set the Catholic world on fire today. This is damage control. If THIS is what the bishops released in writing, there would have been no headlines. But this is not what was released. Hence the ever growing confusion.

 

[gracepoole]

Who exactly are the “false prophets” in this situation?

A prophet tells the truth from God.

It really sounds like you’re on the verge of calling the bishops false prophets. Please don’t. If for no other reason than your standing with CAF. I’d hope, though, that you’d also see other more valid reasons to abstain from this kind of thinking.

 

[ProVobis]

It’s not for the sake of change. It’s for the sake of matching the culture better. Maybe even getting some financial flow from those that have railed against the Church for centuries.

In a word, selling out.

You said it. I didn’t.

 

[PeopleB4Things]

That message of Christ does not equal “Gay marriage is allowed” or “Gays can now engage in physical acts”.

He said, “Go and sin no more”, not “I’m fine with you just the way you are living at the moment, continue on your way.”

You know I can find quotes from Jesus where he commands us to love each other as he loves us and as we love ourselves. So, when you can bestow upon homosexuals deep, enduring, boundless, unconditional love, the same love Jesus has asked us to give, you’re good to go. If you, in your thoughts or words can condemn people for showing deep, enduring, boundless, unconditional love to others, you might have some work to do. I know I have some work to do. I have a horrible dislike of the Royals right now even though their players have done well. I am but a human.

 

[anon99031074]

Um, are you saying, we now know better?

I am saying that tradition develops. Once we thought slavery was perfectly acceptable. Now we don’t. Once we thought religious freedom was a bad thing. Now we don’t. Once we thought one needed to be subject to the roman pontiff, or be damned for eternity. Now we don’t. It is a maturing process. A growing up. A sanctification process.