Dramatic move as Synod Fathers set out new pastoral care for gays, cohabiting couples and divorcees

[alwaysthinkin]

Yes. He means that…in the same way that a heterosexual orientation is valued in the church for the ability to possibly procreate…a gay person who is Catholic should also be seen as having much to offer the church, God, and fellow Catholics…in terms of their wisdom, struggle, knowledge, and feelings.
They should not be seen as any “less” valuable than a heterosexual person, just because they may not marry someone from the opposite gender and have kids.
Also, they can shed a lot of light as to what goes thru the mind and heart of someone who is gay, and offer this information to others in the church, including young people, so that there is better understanding.

.

Spokesman for the Cardinal, are you?

While this is not yet settled, pump the brakes. Chances are you’ll have an Anglican Catholic Church soon enough.

 

[PTL]

In Luke 15, the complaint is raised against Jesus: “This man welcomes sinners and eats with them.” Jesus responds to this accusation with three of the most beautiful parables in scripture: the lost sheep, the lost coin, and the prodigal son. The 99 sheep are left in the desert in order to find the one. The lamp is lit and the house is swept to find the lost coin. The father runs to the prodigal son and embraces him BEFORE THE SON CONFESSES HIS SIN.

Keep in mind the prodigal son confessed his sin and repented to his father,“I have sinned against you and against God.” He came home to live a new life, not continued his old sinful way.

 

[alwaysthinkin]

Keep in mind the prodigal son confessed his sin and repented to his father,“I have sinned against you and against God.” He came home to live a new life, not continued his old sinful way.

Bingo. I don’t expect forgiveness before I repent, and I’m certain the overwhelming majority of folks don’t either.

Why is one particular group seemingly above repentance? The message is murky at best. And at worst, well, we covered that I guess.

 

[AOE4]

He did not invite public sinners to form part of his circle of disciples and apostles. And the sinners he ***did ***visit or have contact with were urged by him to repent then and there: Thomas, Zachaeus, the Samaritan woman, the Pharisees, etc. Until those sinners took the hint (sometimes delivered with a club) they were excluded from his proto-parish.

What is happening today is different: the drive is on to allow public sinners to be part of the Church community ***before ***they have put their lives in order. Sophisms and pseudo-caring aside, it adds up to a promotion of sin. This will not end well.

Public sinner? what is that? is that someone who is openly unrepentant of their sin, like " Hi, my name is Bob.I am a homosexual who refuses to give up having sex with other men.I want to be part of the church community" just looking for clarification.

 

[Fogwalker]

Keep in mind the prodigal son confessed his sin and repented to his father,“I have sinned against you and against God.” He came home to live a new life, not continued his old sinful way.

The father did not know that the son had repented when the father ran out to welcome him. The repentance was not a condition for the welcome.

 

[alwaysthinkin]

The father did not know that the son had repented when the father ran out to welcome him. The repentance was not a condition for the welcome.

I suppose it wasn’t a condition per se, but it always struck me as implied. I mean he IS coming back ragged, hat in hand, no?

 

[alwaysthinkin]

Two people sitting in a pew are not “shoving their lifestyle in your faces” or “endorsing sin.”
They are attending church.
What are they supposed to do, come together and then split up in the pews? Oy.
You want someone to learn about the church and the teachings, and yet you are glad your homosexual friend did not bring his boyfriend?
That makes no sense.

Value,* tosh?*
Yes. The Synod Fathers are asking you to value another human being.
Let’s hope everyone can step up to the plate and do this.

.

They’re suggesting valuing the orientation. Big difference, and the crux of this matter before us.

Everyone in this forum already values the human being, gay or otherwise.

 

[alwaysthinkin]

Public sinner? what is that? is that someone who is openly unrepentant of their sin, like " Hi, my name is Bob.I am a homosexual who refuses to give up having sex with other men.I want to be part of the church community" just looking for clarification.

Well, a bit different, but Cardinal Burke upheld the decision to not offer communion to politicians who defended and supported abortion. That’s kind of a very public rebuke for a sinner I suppose.

 

[AOE4]

I have read the relevant section of Relatio post disceptationem and yes, it is nuclear. I had suspected that the synod might provoke some heated controversy between cardinals and bishops, leading to a bland non-committal statement at the end, essentially passing the buck on to next year. But not this. And we are only halfway through.

The most simplistic sophisms, the most obvious red herrings and the bluntest refusal to distinguish between what adds up to the promotion of sin and what does not. I really and truly can’t believe it. Obviously some posters will wonder what my problem is, but right now I’m just not in the mood for long explanations (for which there’s no need anyway). Just one point:

One individual, whom the parish knows to be homosexual, walks into a church alone and kneels at a pew, praying. Do we condemn him? Of course not. He is probably struggling with his conscience and trying to find his way to God.

Two homosexuals walk into church and sit, side by side, in the same pew. Do we welcome them and make them feel at home? No we do not. They are trying to impose acceptance of their lifestyle on Catholics. In an earlier and more Catholic era, the church bouncers - the Porters - would have shown them the door.

Does the document show recognition of this distinction? Not a word, anywhere.

The synodal declaration is not ex Cathedra, so I am entitled to toss it into the bin whilst remaining a Catholic. If anyone finds that disrespectful of the hierarchy, bonne chance!

Are the two homosexuals celibate? you may want to specify that where things get tricky is whether one is celibate or not.Celibate gay and heterosexual priest are acceptable…right?

 

[gilliam]

Are the two homosexuals celibate? you may want to specify that where things get tricky is whether one is celibate or not.Celibate gay and heterosexual priest are acceptable…right?

The document doesn’t ask us to pry into their spiritual lives. So if they are sitting next to you in the pew, you don’t assume anything except that they are there for the same reasons you are. Here is what the document says:

 50.        Homosexuals have gifts and qualities to offer to the Christian community: are we capable of welcoming these people, guaranteeing to them a fraternal space in our communities? Often they wish to encounter a Church that offers them a welcoming home. Are our communities capable of providing that, accepting and valuing their sexual orientation, without compromising Catholic doctrine on the family and matrimony?

 51.        The question of homosexuality leads to a serious reflection on how to elaborate realistic paths of affective growth and human and evangelical maturity integrating the sexual dimension: it appears therefore as an important educative challenge. The Church furthermore affirms that unions between people of the same sex cannot be considered on the same footing as matrimony between man and woman. Nor is it acceptable that pressure be brought to bear on pastors or that international bodies make financial aid dependent on the introduction of regulations inspired by gender ideology.

 52.        Without denying the moral problems connected to homosexual unions it has to be noted that there are cases in which mutual aid to the point of sacrifice constitutes a precious support in the life of the partners. Furthermore, the Church pays special attention to the children who live with couples of the same sex, emphasizing that the needs and rights of the little ones must always be given priority.

 

[Fogwalker]

I suppose it wasn’t a condition per se, but it always struck me as implied. I mean he IS coming back ragged, hat in hand, no?

Aren’t there many reasons that could have explained the son’s appearance that would not have required any repentance? Maybe he was robbed on the road. Maybe he put his inheritance in a sound investment that went bust. Maybe he donated his investment to help the poor. Or maybe, as was actually the case, the son had used the inheritance for evil. The father had no idea, and he didn’t ask, because he didn’t care what the reason was for the son’s problems. The father’s only thought was to run and embrace.

 

[AOE4]

Well, a bit different, but Cardinal Burke upheld the decision to not offer communion to politicians who defended and supported abortion. That’s kind of a very public rebuke for a sinner I suppose.

your example is a bit more cut and dried.Not so easy with the public in regards to denying communion.I guess my point is it is difficult if not impossible to deny individuals entry into a Catholic church.How do we know what is in their heart? granted there are a few out there that publicly state they will not repent their sin, they want a showdown

 

[PTL]

The father did not know that the son had repented when the father ran out to welcome him. The repentance was not a condition for the welcome.

However, from the doctrine and Church’s teaching point of view, repentance should be expected. Otherwise, it is an insult to the Eucharist and a cancellation to the Sacrament of reconciliation. If people in mortal sin can all of a sudden receive the Eucharist, then all people can receive the Eucharist with mortal sin. A murderer is also welcome before repentance. There will be no right or wrong, Everything is right. What kind of disaster is that? If homo in sex action can receive the Eucharist without conversion (change heart and change behavior), then why not apply it to someone who kills his own parents? Why not apply it to someone who rapes his own daughter? Why not apply it to someone who commits adultery? Talking about fairness, equality, and acceptance.

While talking about compassion, we cannot trash God’s teaching and truth; otherwise this world will become a chaos. Actually it is a chaos already due to so many people who know only compassion but have no principle,no truth and no logical thinking.

 

[alwaysthinkin]

your example is a bit more cut and dried.Not so easy with the public in regards to denying communion.I guess my point is it is difficult if not impossible to deny individuals entry into a Catholic church.How do we know what is in their heart? granted there are a few out there that publicly state they will not repent their sin, they want a showdown

Right. I’m just saying it’s been done in a sense, already.

I don’t see it happening, but if gay couples started marching into churches wearing their parade garb, that would seem pretty obvious that they are there to be accepted into the congregation as is, and that’s that. That’s why the language used by the bishops today is so problematic.

Someone needs to teach a clarity workshop in Rome…!

 

[AOE4]

The document doesn’t ask us to pry into their spiritual lives. So if they are sitting next to you in the pew, you don’t assume anything except that they are there for the same reasons you are. Here is what the document says:

 50.        Homosexuals have gifts and qualities to offer to the Christian community: are we capable of welcoming these people, guaranteeing to them a fraternal space in our communities? Often they wish to encounter a Church that offers them a welcoming home. Are our communities capable of providing that, accepting and valuing their sexual orientation, without compromising Catholic doctrine on the family and matrimony?

 51.        The question of homosexuality leads to a serious reflection on how to elaborate realistic paths of affective growth and human and evangelical maturity integrating the sexual dimension: it appears therefore as an important educative challenge. The Church furthermore affirms that unions between people of the same sex cannot be considered on the same footing as matrimony between man and woman. Nor is it acceptable that pressure be brought to bear on pastors or that international bodies make financial aid dependent on the introduction of regulations inspired by gender ideology.

 52.        Without denying the moral problems connected to homosexual unions it has to be noted that there are cases in which mutual aid to the point of sacrifice constitutes a precious support in the life of the partners. Furthermore, the Church pays special attention to the children who live with couples of the same sex, emphasizing that the needs and rights of the little ones must always be given priority.

I am not in agreement with the post by Justin Swanton.I am not going to assume anyones intention as to why they are attending mass my post is a rebuttal to Justin Swanton…I want to be clear on that.

 

[PeopleB4Things]

Are you prepared to take the position that the love in a gay couple is akin to the love Christ has for us? Or the love we have for one another? Methinks no.

And also, NO ONE here is condemning anyone as long as I’ve been following these threads. The sin is already condemned by God and His Church. We are merely understanding that fact same as any other sin condemned by Him similarly. No one here has cast judgment or hate or vitriol, so I will keep calling that mistake out as I see it because there is a huge difference.

Christ is perfect. We are not. No matter how hard we try, our love of others will never be perfect. So I agree with you there. No human love, no gay love, no straight love, no family love, etc will ever be akin to the love Christ has for us.

I speed. I knowingly put lives of other drivers in peril because I do 70 in 60 mph zone. I eat foods that are bad for me which can be considered as taking measures to end my life prematurely. I miss church on about 5 weekends per year when I do heavy traveling. I sometimes eat meat on Fridays during lent. And I sometimes curse using the Lord’s name in vain. Yet no one seems to care about my sins. Even the priests during confession glaze over when I go thru my litany of sins. Yet if I said I had gay sex with the man I loved and was married to, the priest would certainly perk right up. Why? Because it’s sexual perversion! Salacious, scandalous, riveting. And it’s the same outside the confessional as well. Homosexual sin is a mortal sin just like skipping out on church. You can’t tell me that anyone gives them the same weight. While they may be condemned by Him similarly, they aren’t by us. No one cares if Johnny missed church last Sunday. When the time comes when no one cares if Johnny had gay sex last Sunday, then we’re on to something.

 

[AOE4]

Right. I’m just saying it’s been done in a sense, already.

I don’t see it happening, but if gay couples started marching into churches wearing their parade garb, that would seem pretty obvious that they are there to be accepted into the congregation as is, and that’s that. That’s why the language used by the bishops today is so problematic.

Someone needs to teach a clarity workshop in Rome…!

Clarity is the key word here.They have no intention of changing the church doctrine…Dogma,rule book(not sure how to word this)it seems they are just easing up a bit on what can sometimes be a harsh message in regards to homosexuality.

 

[Fogwalker]

However, from the doctrine and Church’s teaching point of view, repentance should be expected. Otherwise, it is an insult to the Eucharist and a cancellation to the Sacrament of reconciliation. If people in mortal sin can all of a sudden receive the Eucharist, then all people can receive the Eucharist with mortal sin. A murderer is also welcome before repentance. There will be no right or wrong, Everything is right. What kind of disaster is that? If homo in sex action can receive the Eucharist without conversion (change heart and change behavior), then why not apply it to someone who kills his own parents? Why not apply it to someone who rapes his own daughter? Why not apply it to someone who commits adultery? Talking about fairness, equality, and acceptance.

While talking about compassion, we cannot trash God’s teaching and truth; otherwise this world will become a chaos. Actually it is a chaos already due to so many people who know only compassion but have no principle,no truth and no logical thinking.

No one is talking about giving the Eucharist to those who are in mortal sin. Many homosexuals desire Christ but do not feel like they can approach a Catholic to discuss the Catholic faith because of the intensity and, frankly, the anger of the Church towards homosexual unions. The bishops are simply saying that the Lord’s teaching on homosexual unions can be communicated without the intensity and anger that make homosexual people feel so unwelcome in a Catholic church.

 

[AOE4]

Christ is perfect. We are not. No matter how hard we try, our love of others will never be perfect. So I agree with you there. No human love, no gay love, no straight love, no family love, etc will ever be akin to the love Christ has for us.

I speed. I knowingly put lives of other drivers in peril because I do 70 in 60 mph zone. I eat foods that are bad for me which can be considered as taking measures to end my life prematurely. I miss church on about 5 weekends per year when I do heavy traveling. I sometimes eat meat on Fridays during lent. And I sometimes curse using the Lord’s name in vain. Yet no one seems to care about my sins. Even the priests during confession glaze over when I go thru my litany of sins. Yet if I said I had gay sex with the man I loved and was married to, the priest would certainly perk right up. Why? Because it’s sexual perversion! Salacious, scandalous, riveting. And it’s the same outside the confessional as well. Homosexual sin is a mortal sin just like skipping out on church. You can’t tell me that anyone gives them the same weight. While they may be condemned by Him similarly, they aren’t by us. No one cares if Johnny missed church last Sunday. When the time comes when no one cares if Johnny had gay sex last Sunday, then we’re on to something.

Interesting.Personally I think that adultery is as bad as homosexuality.Adultery in regards to my ex wife made my daughters life and mine quite difficult.My ex had many other problems, substance abuse.She passed away from her vices.She was not very old.May God rest her soul.I am confused as to why homosexuals seem to get a lot more grief than other sinners.Any clear concise info on that? is there a sin meter somewhere? personally I strive not to be a sinner.

 

[alwaysthinkin]

Christ is perfect. We are not. No matter how hard we try, our love of others will never be perfect. So I agree with you there. No human love, no gay love, no straight love, no family love, etc will ever be akin to the love Christ has for us.

I speed. I knowingly put lives of other drivers in peril because I do 70 in 60 mph zone. I eat foods that are bad for me which can be considered as taking measures to end my life prematurely. I miss church on about 5 weekends per year when I do heavy traveling. I sometimes eat meat on Fridays during lent. And I sometimes curse using the Lord’s name in vain. Yet no one seems to care about my sins. Even the priests during confession glaze over when I go thru my litany of sins. Yet if I said I had gay sex with the man I loved and was married to, the priest would certainly perk right up. Why? Because it’s sexual perversion! Salacious, scandalous, riveting. And it’s the same outside the confessional as well. Homosexual sin is a mortal sin just like skipping out on church. You can’t tell me that anyone gives them the same weight. While they may be condemned by Him similarly, they aren’t by us. No one cares if Johnny missed church last Sunday. When the time comes when no one cares if Johnny had gay sex last Sunday, then we’re on to something.

For the sake of brevity I’m going to paraphrase (and purposefully oversimplify) your post.

Society gives more weight to some sins than others, so we should lighten up on the gay stuff.

You’re right about most of that I think. Does that make any of it more right, less wrong? Rather than soften tone on the gay stuff, wouldn’t it make more sense to return the teaching to putting all sin in perspective again? This is certainly a very real criticism of Vatican 2 (the perceived softening). Getting to a point where no one cares that johnny skipped church, sped to work, and had gay sex is an improvement in some way? Surely you’re not serious?

Besides I think society is collectively pretty sick and no one really DOES care about any of this except those of us posting on here at all hours but I digress!

On a side note, I think some sins are indeed worse than others but God will judge those, not us. We just have to stick to the rules and teach them to one another and keep each other on track.