Dramatic move as Synod Fathers set out new pastoral care for gays, cohabiting couples and divorcees

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Megan7 said:
Justin, thanks for your post. I will read it later on, I am a bit upset, sad by all of the news.
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As many of us are, Megan. I just hope that there is a mistranslation or a biased translation somewhere there. I will certainly look for one.
 
Tigg said:
Invited and welcomed are really becoming treacherous words if they imply we must deny our faith and affirm sin.
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Our job as Christian lay people is not to pass judgment; however our job is to welcome all as brothers and sisters to Christ. Remember, Jesus sat with those who at His time were considered the worst of sinners. We can do no less. Let our clergy give them spiritual advice and forgive their sins.
 
gilliam said:
Maybe because they haven’t been invited and welcomed into a church. I think that may well be the reason for the Synod. Just my opinion there.

Would a gay couple be invited to attend mass at church? Should one be allowed to give a reading? Is that giving the wrong message? When we say they are welcome, what does that mean?
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Invited and welcomed are really becoming treacherous words if they imply we must deny our faith and affirm sin. Is that the direction they are going?
related: If laws don’t lead people to Jesus, they are obsolete, pope says
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Truly…this is going beyond the pale. Notice the fine choice of words. Does anyone at all believe the pope said the commandments are obsolete?
 
Tigg said:
Invited and welcomed are really becoming treacherous words if they imply we must deny our faith and affirm sin.

This is going beyond the pale. Notice the fine choice of words. Does anyone at all believe the pope is implying the commandments are obsolete?
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At Mass last night, during the homily (which was more of a sermon), Father said “everyone is invited to follow Jesus but few were chosen.” He also mentioned that it’s up to each of us to either accept and save the invitation, publicly accept yet trash the invitation, or simply trash it.

People need to understand that all are invited, but we do not welcome scandal. There is a difference. When I invite someone to stay at my house, they are welcome as long as they follow my rules. If they become unwelcome due to there behavior, it doesn’t mean they were not invited.
 
Tigg said:
Invited and welcomed are really becoming treacherous words if they imply we must deny our faith and affirm sin.

This is going beyond the pale. Notice the fine choice of words. Does anyone at all believe the pope is implying the commandments are obsolete?
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At Mass last night, during the homily (which was more of a sermon), Father said “everyone is invited to follow Jesus but few were chosen.” He also mentioned that it’s up to each of us to either accept and save the invitation, publicly accept yet trash the invitation, or simply trash it.

People need to understand that all are invited, but we do not welcome scandal. There is a difference. When I invite someone to stay at my house, they are welcome as long as they follow my rules. If they become unwelcome due to their behavior, it doesn’t mean they were not invited.
 
gilliam said:
Our job as Christian lay people is not to pass judgment; however our job is to welcome all as brothers and sisters to Christ. Remember, Jesus sat with those who at His time were considered the worst of sinners. We can do no less.
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Will the spiritual works of mercy be re-done then? You know, the part about “admonish the sinner.”
Let our clergy give them spiritual advice and forgive their sins.
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Newsflash: Their sins can only be forgiven if they repent and sin no more.
 
Justin_Swanton said:
I have read the relevant section of Relatio post disceptationem and yes, it is nuclear. I had suspected that the synod might provoke some heated controversy between cardinals and bishops, leading to a bland non-committal statement at the end, essentially passing the buck on to next year. But not this. And we are only halfway through.

The most simplistic sophisms, the most obvious red herrings and the bluntest refusal to distinguish between what adds up to the promotion of sin and what does not. I really and truly can’t believe it. Obviously some posters will wonder what my problem is, but right now I’m just not in the mood for long explanations (for which there’s no need anyway). Just one point:

One individual, whom the parish knows to be homosexual, walks into a church alone and kneels at a pew, praying. Do we condemn him? Of course not. He is probably struggling with his conscience and trying to find his way to God.

Two homosexuals walk into church and sit, side by side, in the same pew. Do we welcome them and make them feel at home? No we do not. They are trying to impose acceptance of their lifestyle on Catholics. In an earlier and more Catholic era, the church bouncers - the Porters - would have shown them the door.

Does the document show recognition of this distinction? Not a word, anywhere.

The synodal declaration is not ex Cathedra, so I am entitled to toss it into the bin whilst remaining a Catholic. If anyone finds that disrespectful of the hierarchy, bonne chance!
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Yes, they may find they have a widespread revolt on their hands. Push back - isn’t that what the liberals did to Benedict? Here we go. I need the Church to come to ME, right where I am at, stuck in the truth of the Gospel. Where is Bishop Schneider? He better not sign this thing. 🙂 I seriously believe we need to split like Lutherans - into separate sects. I don’t want to go to a parish like this and I am not alone - we need to speak with our feet. I need my Church leaders to speak up. I suspect there are those who don’t want to run parishes like this either - it will be a natural sifting.
 
Tigg said:
related: If laws don’t lead people to Jesus, they are obsolete, pope says
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I didn’t read that as objectively the commandments are obsolete and I don’t think anyone with half a brain would. It’s just a reiteration of St Pauls warning that the letter of the law kills and it is the spirit of the law that gives life. The Pharisees in scripture typify the error of demanding only one application of the law. Theirs.
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gilliam said:
Our job as Christian lay people is not to pass judgment; however our job is to welcome all as brothers and sisters to Christ. Remember, Jesus sat with those who at His time were considered the worst of sinners. We can do no less. Let our clergy give them spiritual advice and forgive their sins.
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He did not invite public sinners to form part of his circle of disciples and apostles. And the sinners he ***did ***visit or have contact with were urged by him to repent then and there: Thomas, Zachaeus, the Samaritan woman, the Pharisees, etc. Until those sinners took the hint (sometimes delivered with a club) they were excluded from his proto-parish.

What is happening today is different: the drive is on to allow public sinners to be part of the Church community ***before ***they have put their lives in order. Sophisms and pseudo-caring aside, it adds up to a promotion of sin. This will not end well.
 
Tigg said:
Will the spiritual works of mercy be re-done then? You know, the part about “admonish the sinner.”
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Before we start shunning people based on this, I think reading the following would be of benefit: newadvent.org/cathen/04394a.htm

If the pastoral direction of the Church is to be more open to people attending and participating in Church activities (and that pastoral direction may or may not come next year), we will not be in the position to shun them. Again, let those who are in a position and have more training give them spiritual direction.
 
ProVobis said:
As many of us are, Megan. I just hope that there is a mistranslation or a biased translation somewhere there. I will certainly look for one.
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Dear Pro Vobis, you are really good with languages. If there is something, somewhere, please find it:o.

You know, I am concerned about that Catholic teenager, or individual who wants to come into the Church. And up until now, has been trying to change their ways, to be Godly & follow the Commandments. And I fear that they may just say, well, after reading or listening to CNN, I am OK the way I am (even if in a sinful/disordered relationship).
“I do not have to mend my ways, because the Church said I am OK” This will just help many “rationalize it all” As it is, TV shows, movies, schools have been pushing their agenda on us all for years, making us believe it is all OK. And if we do not go along, we are bigots, evil, etc. The media is truly enjoying this. People in sinful situations will just hear what they want to hear…Sorry for the rambling on…:bighanky:

Thank you & may God bless you. :highprayer:
 
Justin_Swanton said:
He did not invite public sinners to form part of his circle of disciples and apostles. And the sinners he ***did ***visit or have contact with were urged by him to repent then and there: Thomas, Zachaeus, the Samaritan woman, the Pharisees, etc. Until those sinners took the hint (sometimes delivered with a club) they were excluded from his proto-parish.

What is happening today is different: the drive is on to allow public sinners to be part of the Church community ***before ***they have put their lives in order. Sophisms and pseudo-caring aside, it adds up to a promotion of sin. This will not end well.
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Why are we so quick to slam the Church’s door in people faces? I really, really don’t understand the motivation here. 🤷
 
gilliam said:
Why are we so quick to slam the Church’s door in people faces? I really, really don’t understand the motivation here. 🤷
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This characterization is absolutely** false.** When has a repentant soul, one who is willing to give up their sin, (a very necessary condition) ever been turned away by the church? Or do you just want a church that will capitulate to the culture?
 
gilliam said:
Why are we so quick to slam the Church’s door in people faces? I really, really don’t understand the motivation here. 🤷
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I saw a great signboard yesterday on a United Methodist Church: Be curious, not judgmental. My two cents is that we are really try to move past sin and adopt the more lenient, less judgmental secular values that you see widespread in our society or in the more modern Protestant Churches (mainstream to prosperity gospel; although I suspect we’ll also go pretty liberation theology on the social justice side soon) :rolleyes:. There will be absolutely no moral pressure or guidance for these “sinful” newcomers (who will be small in number and short term anyway) who do come in the Church as is. There is hardly any guidance now in any meaningful sense. And I think we pretty much all know this. To me, this gesture is nothing but hypocrisy and lies. And they are coating it in of all things the Gospel. Actually makes me nauseous. I am not directing this at you; I really believe what I say - I am talking about this Synod.
 
gilliam said:
Why are we so quick to slam the Church’s door in people faces? I really, really don’t understand the motivation here. 🤷
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Gilliam, it’s not difficult to see. I knew a homosexual (not one myself BTW ;)). He came to our parish, regularly. He discussed his problem with me (he had the grace to know it was a problem - ‘valuing’, tosh!). It never crossed his mind to bring his current partner with him to church, just like an alcoholic doesn’t bring a bottle of plonk and swig it back during Mass.

The parish is - or should be - a Catholic space. Where we believe the same things and agree on the same Commandments. If we are imperfect and fail to keep them, that’s OK. But we do nothing that in any way adds up to an *endorsement *of sin. My friend was not endorsing sin when he came to church. His homosexuality was not a public fact. But two homosexuals who come to church together ***are ***endorsing sin. A single visit, in ignorance, OK. We show a little understanding. But regular attendance, no.

We do as Christ did. Deal with public sinners on neutral ground, and let them visit our churches in a manner which makes clear they are not shoving their lifestyle in our faces.
 
They believed that Jesus did “strange things”: “He went about with sinners, ate with tax collectors.” The Pope noted that they “did not like” Jesus, he “was dangerous; doctrine was in danger, the doctrine of the law”, which the theologians had formulated over the centuries. Pope Francis said that while they had “done this out of love, to be faithful to God”, they had become “closed”, they had “simply forgotten history. They had forgotten that God is the God of the Law, but He is also the God of surprises”. On the other hand, said Francis, “God has often reserved surprises for His people” like when He saved them “from slavery in Egypt”:

“They did not understand that God is the God of surprises, that God is always new; He never denies himself, never says that what He said was wrong, never, but He always surprises us. They did not understand this and they closed themselves within that system that was created with the best of intentions and asked Jesus: ‘But, give us a sign’. And they did not understand the many signs that Jesus did give them and which indicated that the time was ripe. Closure! Second, they had forgotten that they were a people on a journey. On a path! And when we set out on a journey, when we are on our path, we always encounter new things, things we did not know“.

Read more: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=914685
 
Still relevant today
http://chirho.me/memes/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/10004047_292997527516663_800400262_n.jpg

But seriously this is exciting. It feels like new mission territory and new evangelization. Other Christian churches have simply changed their beliefs to say homosexual acts are ok and redefined marriage . The Catholic Church might actually be the first to teach the world what sexuality really is and how persons of the same sex can and should love each other.
 
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