Dramatic move as Synod Fathers set out new pastoral care for gays, cohabiting couples and divorcees

[EIF5A]

If all of this is true, then I am assuming they will define in some way that the orientation does not include the sexual practices too. Yes, the orientation is one thing, but the actions are another with the orientation…

There’s no point in redefining a word. Orientation does not equal Action.

It would be good to ruminate on this before you tell someone that such and such is Church teaching (“Homosexual orientation is sin”) when it is not, causing someone to be unnecessarily at odds with the Church and possibly driving them away even further.

 

[EIF5A]

I come from a different perspective than others on this. I am now divorced as my wife left to pursue a lesbian relationship. She is now in a state sanctioned gay marriage. There are MANY in the gay community that will use any ambiguity to further push their agenda. It is already on social media feeds. They will be at church sitting together. They will lie as it is perfectly acceptable to win their own converts. Whoever decided to release this just held the door open for Satan and said, come on in.

Except gay marriage is still off the table, and there’s no mention that same-sex physical acts are now morally licit…

 

[gilliam]

Thanks for this, Aby.

I had to listen to it carefully, but it’s a pretty fair translation.

I’m glad someone said it.

In an interview with Vatican Radio, the President of the Polish Episcopal Conference did not hesitate to say that this document departs from the teaching of John Paul II, and even that in it can be noticed traces of the anti-marriage ideology. According to Archbishop Gądecki, this text also highlights the lack of a clear vision for the synodal assembly.

“Is the purpose of this Synod pastoral support to families in difficulty, or is its goal the study of special cases? Our main task is to support the family pastorally, not to hit her, exposing these difficult situations that exist, but which do not constitute the nucleus of the same family; they [the special cases] do not void the need for support, which should be given to good, normal, ordinary families, who are struggling not so much for survival as for fidelity,” said Archbishop Gądecki.

“Referring to the issues of marriage and family, certain criteria are being applied that raise doubt. For example, the criterion of gradualism. Can you really treat cohabitation as gradual, on the path to holiness? Today, the discussion also highlighted that the doctrine presented in the document is marked by the sin of omission. As if the world’s view prevailed and everything was imperfection which leads to perfection… Attention was paid not so much to what this document says, but to what it does not say. Speak about the practical exceptions, but we also need to present the truth. Also, the points that speak of children entrusted to same-sex couples are formulated somewhat as if this situation is being praised! This is also a defect of this text, which should be an incentive to fidelity, family values, but instead seems to accept everything as it is. It created an impression that the teaching of the Church has been merciless so far, as if the teaching of mercy were beginning only now.”

rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2014/10/the-great-division-wojtya-nation-to.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter​

 

[EIF5A]

I’m having trouble with, “In all Christian charity, you are not welcome here.”

This is indeed a thorny subject, but I don’t think sending people away is the way to convert them.

Technically, asking them to sit separately is not sending them away, although I don’t really understand what sitting apart accomplishes. But if the hypothetical gay couple in question is honestly inquiring about the Church, then I don’t think sitting apart is too big of a burden. But if another hypothetical gay couple walks into Church erroneously thinking gay relationships are OK now, they might feel offended that they are being treated differently than straight people.

Maybe we should all just wear large hoodies so everyone looks the same and no one knows where anyone sits.

 

[RosslynV]

There isn’t any other place to go.

There’s nothing wrong with going to a sspx (Latin) mass.

 

[J_Peterson]

I find this report very disturbing. Yes, we should be charitable to sinners, as we’re all sinners, but we should call homosexuality for what it is - a grave sin. This document adds a lot of ambiguity and seems to condone sin.

Homosexuality is not a sin.

 

[ProVobis]

Thoughts of “breaking up” the Church are of Satan.

You don’t have to go to the SSPX (actually the FSSPX) for that. That became clear when many threatened that very thing when Pope Benedict lifted their (SSPX) excommunication.

 

[gracepoole]

It always seems that there are two depictions of Jesus given in these discussions: the loving Christ who embraced prostitutes and other sinners and the admonishing Christ who flipped tables and told sinners not to sin anymore. None of us is Christ, however, so it’s likely that both approaches (if they’re not tempered in some way) will lead to problems. And it seems the past fifty years or so are evidence enough of that.

I will admit that it’s kind of shocking to hear folks talk about reaching their limits with the Church, leaving the Church, wondering about schisms, etc. If the Church is the only entity that holds the truth, where can you possibly imagine going?

 

[ProVobis]

Why was it made public with such poor wording then?

Because sensationalism and being the first to report it sells?

 

[robertmidwest]

I find this report very disturbing. Yes, we should be charitable to sinners, as we’re all sinners, but we should call homosexuality for what it is - a grave sin. This document adds a lot of ambiguity and seems to condone sin.

Homosexuality is not a sin.

Correct. Homosexuality is not a sin.

 

[gracepoole]

There’s nothing wrong with going to a sspx (Latin) mass.

Those are two different things. And I don’t know any bishop who encourages the faithful to attend an SSPX Mass. The Extraordinary Form is something else entirely because it’s approved of by the Church.

 

[EIF5A]

Homosexuality is not a sin.

Even now, on this thread, people use the term “homosexuality” to describe interchangeably orientation and actions.

The Synod is not undoing moral teachings, but it gives dignity to people who do have the orientation without condoning sin.

If you tell someone that an intrinsically disordered monster is inside of you, then what do you expect? Rainbows and butterflies?

Everyone is called to chastity, but homosexuals have no choice other than life-long celibacy. Straight single people have hope for marriage; gay people do not.

All they said was that gay people have value. They did not condone gay marriage or physical acts.

 

[ProVobis]

Not quite my meaning. I knew a divorced and remarried couple who came to church but sat apart, thereby acknowledging they were not demanding social acceptance of their irregular situation. Parishioners knew them and kept on friendly terms with them. It was an uncomfortable and unhappy situation but that is what so many people’s lives are - they get into a false situation and can’t get out of it.

It’s an especially uncomfortable situation at the exchange of peace. Been there.

 

[ringil]

You don’t have to go to the SSPX (actually the FSSPX) for that. That became clear when many threatened that very thing when Pope Benedict lifted their excommunication.

I’m not sure how this relates to my comment.

The SSPX is the largest “break away” body of the Church by far. Yes, I imagine there are others, both of a “liberal” or “conservative” bent.

However ANY split of the Church is evil. No schism is good. No split is of the will of God.

There is no “purer” Church than full communion with Rome. It’s an oxymoron.

 

[ProVobis]

I am sure Thomas More was already disappointed in the Church. After all, it has given up the venerable tradition of burning heretics at the stake, and More was directly involved in three such executions.

Nevertheless he was canonized.

 

[FollowChrist34]

Because sensationalism and being the first to report it sells?

Also I have heard from some reliable sources that some in the Vatican press are progressive sympathizers and are using press releases as a kind of propaganda. Pretty much everyone has a side here, so I think you can expect that to bear out in the releases - for example, comments that a bishop may make against the report (such as this is unacceptable) won’t get picked up by certain channels or given their due weight - or vice versa.

 

[JoyIsLikeRain]

Little in the actual document is new.

Pastors have been ministering to couples in pre-wedding counselling under the assumption that 90% of the partners have been cohabitating for years now.

Yet, the distinction to us and outsiders has to be made that the RCC is not REVERSING the sins the situations of hetero and homosexual cohabitation create.

The media, as they always do, now loves this, loves Francis - not because he sees sinners as people with value that need conversion, but because they’re “doing nothing wrong.”

 

[Sy_Noe]

More people in the pews aren’t going to learn the CC teachings if the message is distorted.

I follow your point. I guess I was just assuming faithful Catholics would accept as not being distorted, any message their Pope might send out as a result of the synod.

 

[ProVobis]

I’m not sure how this relates to my comment.

The SSPX is the largest “break away” body of the Church by far.

I don’t know what exactly you mean by “body” since excommunications are individual but I wouldn’t say it’s the largest when some 200 “priestesses” and their bishops have been excommunicated. The news media hardly mentions those. OTOH, currently no SSPX bishop is excommunicated AFAIK.

But let’s save the SSPX talk for another thread. I’m not one of their supporters and I have a good choice of the Extraordinary Form of Masses in my area.

 

[Beautiful]

You may see it, but I don’t see any relation between ISIS and the Synod. If you’re saying the Church is moving into apostasy while ISIS licks their chops for world domination, I find that hard to believe. God, in His goodness, would not let the pooch get THAT screwed!

JackVk
Be patient! Many people come and go here. You might not always get an immediate response. Sometimes folks never reply.

Yes, I do believe our Church could move into apostasy while Islamic State licks their chops over world domination.

ibtimes.co.uk/isis-magazine-dabiq-threatens-rome-crusaders-flying-islamic-state-flag-vatican-front-cover-1469712

The Islamic State (IS) group renewed propagandist threats against Rome and the Vatican in a new issue of its official magazine, which had a Photoshopped picture of a jihadi flag flying atop the Holy See on the front cover.