Dramatic move as Synod Fathers set out new pastoral care for gays, cohabiting couples and divorcees

[McCall1981]

ncregister.com/daily-news/serious-reservations-expressed-about-content-of-synod-report/

Serious Reservations Expressed About Content of Synod Report

Critics noted potentially problematic comments about several issues, including homosexuality, contraception, cohabitation and reception of Communion.

by EDWARD PENTIN 10/13/2014

VATICAN CITY — The publication today of the mid-way report on the Extraordinary Synod of Bishops on the Family is a “great moment” that has “mirrored the extent” of discussion so far, delegate president Cardinal Anthony Tagle of the Philippines has said.

But prominent Catholic observers have criticized the document as a “betrayal” of Catholic parents worldwide and as a misrepresentation of Catholicism, and for giving the impression that the Church’s teaching is open to change in a number of controversial areas.

The theme of the two-week synod is “Pastoral challenges to the family in the context of evangelization.” Delivering the almost 6,000-word relatio post disceptationem (post-discussion report), Cardinal Peter Erdo, the synod’s general rapporteur, said the report will help shape the final documents on the synod but he stressed it does “not represent decisions that have already been taken.” Instead, it is intended “to raise questions and indicate perspectives that will have to be matured.”

The relatio post disceptationem (post-discussion report) released today is a summation made by synod officials of hundreds of interventions given last week by synod fathers, experts and laity. It was compiled to serve as the basis for the continuing discussions among synod participants this week among bishops meeting in a number of smaller working groups, organized on the basis of language.

Following the conclusion of the synod, a final report known as the relatio synodi will be released incorporating the additional discussion that has taken place.

(Read more there)

 

[Seamus_L]

According to the blog Rorate Caeli, Archbishop Stanislaw Gądecki has called the document unacceptable

 

[EIF5A]

That was in response to the theoretical SLG comment in your post that “if the Church thinks I’m a mistake by God…”

God allows plenty of course. He’s allowed me to make myriad mistakes and has delivered me so far, that’s not the point. I wanted to be cleAr that we cannot assume (in case anyone is) that God gave these people this particular cross to carry.

Angry and indignant? Was that for me?

The point is perception. This idea that “Gays are treated just the same as everyone else” doesn’t matter when the party to whom it is addressed does not feel the same way.

And no one here said God makes someone gay. Although the liberal gay theological gymnastics often reach that conclusion…

Not to you — to those who believe this is a sign that the Church is going to erode and give in to satan or something and that they are the defenders of righteousness.

I almost get this vibe of resentment that the Church is trying to show compassion to people that they deem to be abnormally evil and the cause of all of society’s ill and the harbinger of armageddon – kind of like that obedient older brother who was upset that the Father threw a party when the prodigal son returned.

 

[livingwordunity]

lol.
gay relationship - sex = friendship

That’s true. What ever happened to the concept of a platonic friendship between two people of the same sex?

 

[gilliam]

CNN: Fr. James Martin: New Vatican tone means ‘gays and lesbians are going to feel a lot more welcome’

(CNN) - In a stunning shift, a new Vatican report says the church should welcome and appreciate gays.

“Practically speaking it means a lot of gays and lesbians are going to feel a lot more welcome,” says Jesuit priest Father James Martin, author of “Jesus: A Pilgrimage.”

"The idea of talking about partners is new. The idea of talking about their love in any way in a positive way is brand new, Martin said.

“At one point it says their love is precious,” he said.

This is a remarkable shift for the Vatican, which until recently had condemned homosexuality as a sin, so much so that children of gay or lesbian parents, says Martin, have in the past been kicked out of religious schools.

The new report says the children of gay unions should not be punished.

It’s unclear where the new tone will lead. What is clear is that Pope Francis is the one leading the charge for these changes.

“He said people should feel free to speak their minds. He really is setting the tone. And once you open up the door to free speech, the Holy Spirit makes its way in and anything can happen,” said Martin.

For more of our interview with Father James Martin, check out the video above.
thelead.blogs.cnn.com/2014/10/13/priest-new-vatican-tone-means-gays-and-lesbians-are-going-to-feel-a-lot-more-welcome/

 

[alwaysthinkin]

The point is perception. This idea that “Gays are treated just the same as everyone else” doesn’t matter when the party to whom it is addressed does not feel the same way.

And no one here said God makes someone gay. Although the liberal gay theological gymnastics often reach that conclusion…

Not to you — to those who believe this is a sign that the Church is going to erode and give in to satan or something and that they are the defenders of righteousness.

I almost get this vibe of resentment that the Church is trying to show compassion to people that they deem to be abnormally evil and the cause of all of society’s ill and the harbinger of armageddon – kind of like that obedient older brother who was upset that the Father threw a party when the prodigal son returned.

The fracturing of the faithful because of confusion and change (again, truth doesn’t change, right?), caused by those charged with teaching the faith clearly is the fear here.

I don’t think erode, I think fracturing to the point of weakness and or irrelevance on the world stage. When you put your mind, body, and soul into having faith that the one true Church will lead you, then find her “changing with the times” at some very coincidental moments in history, surely one can understand the “concern” (to put it mildly). I personally dont revel in confusion and worry about what the newest teaching might be, what might change, what quibbling argument I am going to have to memorize to justify this change when I am mocked by a scornful public because it seems the Church is caving in to this pressure or that.

These are issues of the utmost concern and importance to people like me.

 

[McCall1981]

ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/the-law-of-gradualness-12-things-to-know-and-share

Jimmy Akin

The Law of Gradualness: 12 things to know and share

 

[lakotak]

CNN: Fr. James Martin: New Vatican tone means ‘gays and lesbians are going to feel a lot more welcome’

(CNN) - In a stunning shift, a new Vatican report says the church should welcome and appreciate gays.

“Practically speaking it means a lot of gays and lesbians are going to feel a lot more welcome,” says Jesuit priest Father James Martin, author of “Jesus: A Pilgrimage.”

"The idea of talking about partners is new. The idea of talking about their love in any way in a positive way is brand new, Martin said.

“**At one point it says their love is precious,” he said.
**
This is a remarkable shift for the Vatican, which until recently had condemned homosexuality as a sin, so much so that children of gay or lesbian parents, says Martin, have in the past been kicked out of religious schools.

The new report says the children of gay unions should not be punished.

It’s unclear where the new tone will lead. What is clear is that Pope Francis is the one leading the charge for these changes.

“He said people should feel free to speak their minds. He really is setting the tone. And once you open up the door to free speech, the Holy Spirit makes its way in and anything can happen,” said Martin.

For more of our interview with Father James Martin, check out the video above.
thelead.blogs.cnn.com/2014/10/13/priest-new-vatican-tone-means-gays-and-lesbians-are-going-to-feel-a-lot-more-welcome/

See the bolded. Is he talking about their non sexual affections for each other?

 

[EIF5A]

The fracturing of the faithful because of confusion and change (again, truth doesn’t change, right?), caused by those charged with teaching the faith clearly is the fear here.

I don’t think erode, I think fracturing to the point of weakness and or irrelevance on the world stage. When you put your mind, body, and soul into having faith that the one true Church will lead you, then find her “changing with the times” at some very coincidental moments in history, surely one can understand the “concern” (to put it mildly). I personally dont revel in confusion and worry about what the newest teaching might be, what might change, what quibbling argument I am going to have to memorize to justify this change when I am mocked by a scornful public because it seems the Church is caving in to this pressure or that.

These are issues of the utmost concern and importance to people like me.

…except the Church hasn’t caved in or changed moral teaching. There will always be scornful people. That’s no reason to have the mentality of “There goes the neighborhood/Church. It was better before those people were let in. Look at them shamelessly sitting in the pews”.

The Church will always be here, and the Holy Spirit will always guide Her. What’s to fear?

With all the previous fear of what Pope Francis said or didn’t say, did he oppose any Church teaching?

 

[PeopleB4Things]

That was in response to the theoretical SLG comment in your post that “if the Church thinks I’m a mistake by God…”

God allows plenty of course. He’s allowed me to make myriad mistakes and has delivered me so far, that’s not the point. I wanted to be cleAr that we cannot assume (in case anyone is) that God gave these people this particular cross to carry.

Angry and indignant? Was that for me?

We’ve found homosexuality in every two sex species where we’ve looked. So homosexuality is a part of the natural world. God may not have directly chosen which people are to be homosexual and which are to be heterosexual, but he did create the natural world. Ultimately, all that homosexual activity in all of those species, including humans, are of God. Now, one can argue that people need to fight nature by fighting their homosexual inclinations and that behavior will bring them closer to God. We see that in many cultures. The Shipibo think that men are closer to God because they have short hair, prefer cooked food and have penises. Women are closer to nature (further from God) because they have long hair, prefer sweet foods and have vaginas. We have a similar thought process in our church. Heterosexual sex is closer to God.

Many of us wish that homosexual behavior was addressed in the Commandments or directly by Christ. Wouldn’t that make this easy! But what we are left with are the words of fallible, sinful humans in writings that mix beautiful, meaningful expressions of faith and love, with calls for bigotry, hatred and violence. We, human sinners, are left to decide what to ignore and what to embrace. Do we give up our daughters to be raped by strangers? Do we kill our children when they disobey? Do we condemn homosexual behavior? Or do we love one another as God loves us? Jesus gave us beautifully simple rules to follow as did God. Everything else in between has been and will continue to be up to us to figure out. Our Church must be able to grow in faith. To stunt its growth toward God by hanging so desperately to man made rules of old will cause our faith to wither among the people

 

[alwaysthinkin]

I don’t see how you separate the two.

You love your parents like parents. Siblings as siblings. Perhaps you love a friend like…wait for it…a friend! Or as a sibling!

How can this loving a partner be said to be not homosexual in its very nature and essence then?

Change is coming. It must, or this is all double speak.

 

[EIF5A]

We’ve found homosexuality in every two sex species where we’ve looked. So homosexuality is a part of the natural world. God may not have directly chosen which people are to be homosexual and which are to be heterosexual, but he did create the natural world. Ultimately, all that homosexual activity in all of those species, including humans, are of God. Now, one can argue that people need to fight nature by fighting their homosexual inclinations and that behavior will bring them closer to God. We see that in many cultures. The Shipibo think that men are closer to God because they have short hair, prefer cooked food and have penises. Women are closer to nature (further from God) because they have long hair, prefer sweet foods and have vaginas. We have a similar thought process in our church. Heterosexual sex is closer to God.

Many of us wish that homosexual behavior was addressed in the Commandments or directly by Christ. Wouldn’t that make this easy! But what we are left with are the words of fallible, sinful humans in writings that mix beautiful, meaningful expressions of faith and love, with calls for bigotry, hatred and violence. We, human sinners, are left to decide what to ignore and what to embrace. Do we give up our daughters to be raped by strangers? Do we kill our children when they disobey? Do we condemn homosexual behavior? Or do we love one another as God loves us? Jesus gave us beautifully simple rules to follow as did God. Everything else in between has been and will continue to be up to us to figure out. Our Church must be able to grow in faith. To stunt its growth toward God by hanging so desperately to man made rules of old will cause our faith to wither among the people

We don’t get to decide which moral law to embrace or ignore…which is not “man-made”.

I’m sure the Shipibo are very nice people, but their viewpoint has nothing to do with teachings of the Church.

The Bible is inspired by God and written through humans — which, again, does not mean “man-made”.

Growth toward God is trusting Him even if we don’t fully understand, and we express that trust by following the Church He has established. Following our own understanding is what really stunts our growth. Setting ourselves as our own arbiters of right and wrong makes us want to be God, and well, Adam and Eve sort of regretted that decision.

 

[alwaysthinkin]

We’ve found homosexuality in every two sex species where we’ve looked. So homosexuality is a part of the natural world. God may not have directly chosen which people are to be homosexual and which are to be heterosexual, but he did create the natural world. Ultimately, all that homosexual activity in all of those species, including humans, are of God. Now, one can argue that people need to fight nature by fighting their homosexual inclinations and that behavior will bring them closer to God. We see that in many cultures. The Shipibo think that men are closer to God because they have short hair, prefer cooked food and have penises. Women are closer to nature (further from God) because they have long hair, prefer sweet foods and have vaginas. We have a similar thought process in our church. Heterosexual sex is closer to God.

Many of us wish that homosexual behavior was addressed in the Commandments or directly by Christ. Wouldn’t that make this easy! But what we are left with are the words of fallible, sinful humans in writings that mix beautiful, meaningful expressions of faith and love, with calls for bigotry, hatred and violence. We, human sinners, are left to decide what to ignore and what to embrace. Do we give up our daughters to be raped by strangers? Do we kill our children when they disobey? Do we condemn homosexual behavior? Or do we love one another as God loves us? Jesus gave us beautifully simple rules to follow as did God. Everything else in between has been and will continue to be up to us to figure out. Our Church must be able to grow in faith. To stunt its growth toward God by hanging so desperately to man made rules of old will cause our faith to wither among the people

What we are discussing is the Church. Christ’s infallible Church. Forget the discovery channel stuff for a moment. This isn’t a science argument (my degree was in the arts anyway!). If the Church changes something in its teaching that is so huge as this, what other truth will be changed? In order to change, that means something was wrong. The Church was wrong? How’d that happen? What else might be wrong in the Church? What else needs to be “progressed?” What is the state of all the souls that followed the wrong teaching?

I guess I’m the only idiot bothered by this very oversimplified logical stroll?

 

[EIF5A]

What we are discussing is the Church. Christ’s infallible Church. Forget the discovery channel stuff for a moment. This isn’t a science argument (my degree was in the arts anyway!). If the Church changes something in its teaching that is so huge as this, what other truth will be changed? In order to change, that means something was wrong. The Church was wrong? How’d that happen? What else might be wrong in the Church? What else needs to be “progressed?” What is the state of all the souls that followed the wrong teaching?

I guess I’m the only idiot bothered by this very oversimplified logical stroll?

The Church hasn’t changed any teaching. Gay marriage. Still not allowed. Homosexual acts. Still not allowed.

The Church says gays/people with homosexual tendencies/same-sex attraction can have some sort of dignity (not because of, but in spite of), and the conservatives go berserk.

 

[McCall1981]

rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2014/10/the-great-division-wojtya-nation-to.html?m=1

The head of the Polish Bishops conference has said this doc is “unacceptable”.

 

[lakotak]

What we are discussing is the Church. Christ’s infallible Church. Forget the discovery channel stuff for a moment. This isn’t a science argument (my degree was in the arts anyway!). If the Church changes something in its teaching that is so huge as this, what other truth will be changed? In order to change, that means something was wrong. The Church was wrong? How’d that happen? What else might be wrong in the Church? What else needs to be “progressed?” What is the state of all the souls that followed the wrong teaching?

I guess I’m the only idiot bothered by this very oversimplified logical stroll?

I guess for me the question is this: Is the Church looking to change the doctrine that homosexuality is wrong and a grave sin for those that are active homosexuals or are they looking for ways to try to reach out to those and show them that this is a serious sin that puts their eternal soul in danger of damnation or some other kind of outreach. If it is an actual change in the teaching that homosexuality should not be looked at as a sin, but in the light that it involves love just as in the marriage between a man and a women, then there is going to be a huge problem with this. At this point, until there is some real clarification on this, I can only rely on what Christ said “that the gates of Hell will not prevail against His Church”.

 

[FollowChrist34]

rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2014/10/the-great-division-wojtya-nation-to.html?m=1

The head of the Polish Bishops conference has said this doc is “unacceptable”.

Well, thank you, head of the Polish Bishops, for what it is worth. The liberal bishops will get pretty much anything they want as they have Pope Francis - my prediction. And we also need to emphasize that this is JUST THE BEGINNING. This will go on for years. And I think we can all see the road pretty clearly. I think this is a historic day for Church, we can all agree on that much. I do think she is now in full retreat - where do I sign up for the counter-reformation?

 

[alwaysthinkin]

The Church hasn’t changed any teaching. Gay marriage. Still not allowed. Homosexual acts. Still not allowed.

The Church says gays/people with homosexual tendencies/same-sex attraction can have some sort of dignity (not because of, but in spite of), and the conservatives go berserk.

Gays can have some sort of dignity? Of course they can because be Church teaches they’re not “gays” but people with intrinsic value and human dignity (the whole “a person is not his/her sexual orientation” thesis).

Why then, are the bishops, et. Al. saying things like “their [those folks that self identify as gay] love is precious?” And “can we value their orientation?”

It doesn’t make SENSE in the Church’s current teaching. It suggests a change, at the least a loophole. This isn’t a matter of “conservatives going berserk” (I thought there wasn’t such a Thing, only truth…whatever). I am NOT an intellectual heavy hitter, but my my, this casual dismissal by so many of the faithful of what amounts to a SERIOUS INCONSISTENCY IN CHURCH TEACHING(caps bc woe is me lest I am accused of saying anything other than that by anyone with a ban hammer) is frightening.

I’m a busy guy and I hate my job like everyone else. I’m not on this forum for my health or boredom, as I imagine none of you are. I’m here because I am very concerned and I haven’t been assuaged by anything my fellow laymen have said tonight.

God bless us all and have mercy

 

[FollowChrist34]

Gays can have some sort of dignity? Of course they can because be Church teaches they’re not “gays” but people with intrinsic value and human dignity (the whole “a person is not his/her sexual orientation” thesis).

Why then, are the bishops, et. Al. saying things like “their [those folks that self identify as gay] love is precious?” And “can we value their orientation?”

It doesn’t make SENSE in the Church’s current teaching. It suggests a change, at the least a loophole. This isn’t a matter of “conservatives going berserk” (I thought there wasn’t such a Thing, only truth…whatever). I am NOT an intellectual heavy hitter, but my my, this casual dismissal by so many of the faithful of what amounts to a SERIOUS INCONSISTENCY IN CHURCH TEACHING(caps bc woe is me lest I am accused of saying anything other than that by anyone with a ban hammer) is frightening.

I’m a busy guy and I hate my job like everyone else. I’m not on this forum for my health or boredom, as I imagine none of you are. I’m here because I am very concerned and I haven’t been assuaged by anything my fellow laymen have said tonight.

God bless us all and have mercy

The Church has been horribly betrayed from within.

 

[EIF5A]

Well, thank you, head of the Polish Bishops, for what it is worth. The liberal bishops will get pretty much anything they want as they have Pope Francis - my prediction. And we also need to emphasize that this is JUST THE BEGINNING. This will go on for years. And I think we can all see the road pretty clearly. I think this is a historic day for Church, we can all agree on that much. I do think she is now in full retreat - where do I sign up for the counter-reformation?

Is it really wise to stir the pot, make predictions about what will happen, and foment resentment against Church leaders, just because they appear to condone sin?