Dramatic move as Synod Fathers set out new pastoral care for gays, cohabiting couples and divorcees

[PTL]

I think in this case the Church recognizes that for the prodigal son to confess his sin and repent to his father he’d first have to willingly come within a hundred yards of his father.

.

It is fine to welcome the prodigal son to come home; however it is the Church’s responsibility to teach the ignorant. Compassion without truth is not true compassion.

I read a paragraph from CatholicVote that says well:

But a mighty number of souls are in danger. So it is critical for all of us to once again call upon the Holy Spirit, strengthen ourselves through prayer and educate ourselves in the truth as revealed by the church. Even if it means being the still, small voice of sanity, when everyone else seems to be losing their head. True mercy is always rooted in the truth. And authentic mercy can never contradict the truth.

The synod can release whatever they want to release but they should always make clear the Church’s doctrine and the Bible’s teaching about truth. Leaving the statements ambiguous is very detrimental and put lot of souls in danger.

 

[pepipop]

But homosexuality isn’t intrinsically disordered. It’s only objectively disordered – e.g., disordered in its object. Only homosexual sexual acts are intrinsically disordered.

I had referred to homosexual acts originally, in my earlier posts - an oversight, on my part.

 

[pepipop]

The Catechism disagrees with you.

How does it disagree, I was referring to the Catechism sections below, and only homosexual acts are referred to as intrinsically disordered.

I was looking at this part of the catechism.

*353 Fornication is carnal union between an unmarried man and an unmarried woman. It is gravely contrary to the dignity of persons and of human sexuality which is naturally ordered to the good of spouses and the generation and education of children. Moreover, it is a grave scandal when there is corruption of the young.

Chastity and homosexuality

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.
*

 

[gracepoole]

breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2014/10/14/Confusion-Reigns-Opposition-Grows-to-New-Vatican-Document

No less than 41 bishops rose in protest of the document after it was read to them and while the document was being presented to the Vatican press corps. Noted Vatican journalist Sandro Magister reported:

“Under the gunfire of aroung 41 interventions, Cardinals Pell [Secretary for the Economy], Ouellet [Prefect for Bishops], Filoni [Prefect for Propaganda Fide], Dolan [of New York], Vingt-Trois [of Paris], Burke [Prefect of Apostolic Signatura], Rylko [President of Laity], Müller [Prefect of Doctrine of the Faith], Scola [of Milan], Caffarra [of Bologna] among others spoke up, all against an opening to second marriages as proposed by Cardinal Kasper, who also intervened.”

I thought this was covered last night via the Rorate Caeli link you shared?

I don’t know what kind of consensus the bishops are after but assuming there are at least 190 bishops attending, 41 is just over 20%.

 

[ringil]

Looking at all the hoopla that has arisen, I think we are going to see a pretty drastic re-working of the released document.

I wish this whole thing had been kept under wraps. It’s inappropriate for us laymen to be getting into stuff that is frankly, none of our business.

 

[clem456]

Just as Jesus came for sinners, so too must the church be a “field hospital” to use Pope Francis’ language for sinners and those who are stray sheep.

A hospital has a real structure. Doctors study medicine and have competence and authority. The cure is frequently unpleasant but life giving despite the pain.

 

[Teelynn]

My concern is somewhat similar. It seems to me that in the Western world we’re just pulling out of 40 years of confusion, and now we’re risking confusing people again. I think we grew weaker during the confusion, not stronger. And now that the church is so vibrant, and conservative, in Africa, I fear this will do us damage there.

We do need to love all, but we need to avoid sending a confused message. Frankly, Pope Francis has sent out a lot of confused messages. All along, as we always want to back the Pope, we’ve been in the “what he really means” atmosphere, but we can only do that so long before confusion really sets in.

We cannot be disloyal, but this is concerning.

The only way to be disloyal is if we are disloyal to the gospel of Jesus Christ. Yes, we are to be loyal to the Pope, but, if the Pope himself were to declare something contrary to the gospel and to the doctrine of faith (and I am not saying he will, but ‘if’) we are OBLIGATED to disobey. We cannot follow any Priest, Bishop, Cardinal or even the Pope into dissent. But yes, this ‘relatio’ document is confusing and does give the impression that we are ‘valuing’ homosexual tendencies. DO NOT like the ‘VALUE’ part of that statement. I must admit, I have not read the ‘complete’ document yet, haven’t had time, but I read somewhere that they have a section in it on contraception. I’m almost afraid to read it.

The ‘perception’ alone is enough (in my humble opinion) to do an earthquake of damage. Can anyone say ‘Vatican ll’?

 

[McCall1981]

I thought this was covered last night via the Rorate Caeli link you shared?

I don’t know what kind of consensus the bishops are after but assuming there are at least 190 bishops attending, 41 is just over 20%.

They don’t all intervene. This is saying there were 41 total interventions, most of which were against the proposal.

 

[Justin_Swanton]

Thinking all this over, I’ve just realised something. What we are witnessing is undoubtedly a coup d’etat at the highest levels of Church government, or as Michael Voris put it, a revolution (in the French Revolution sense of the word). The *Relatio *is revolutionary. It cannot be equated with Catholic teaching in its controversial points. The realisation, though, is this: the majority of Synod fathers are going to cave in. In fact, there will be ***no ***organised and effective episcopal opposition to the proposals of the *Relatio *that have caused such a furor in the Catholic world.

The Synod fathers are under tremendous pressure, from below, from around and from above.

From below: the survey initiated by the Vatican and similar surveys shows that most Catholics throughout the world with the exception of Africa reject traditional Church teaching on many of the subjects covered by the Relatio.

From around: secular society backs the controversial *Relatio *proposals one hundred per cent. In our interconnected, hypercommunicative world, that means huge leverage.

From above: everyone knows that the drive for these proposals has come from the very top of the Church’s hierarchy. The prelates advocating them are emboldened by the knowledge that they have the support of the Chair of Peter itself.

The Synod bishops and cardinals hence have no support base, and most of them will not stand up and be counted as individuals. To do so means rebellion, and everyone knows where that leads. They are going to crumble like tissue paper. I am almost certain - and I hope I make a fool of myself and am proven wrong - that the *Relatio *will stand in its present form (with a few, minor alterations that will not substantially alter its message) and become the framework, the map, of the 2015 Synod.

After all, Catholic doctrine is not being ***directly ***attacked. Nobody is saying that homosexuals can marry in church, or that divorced and remarried Catholics are in a sacramental union. The Deposit of the Faith is untouched. It is just going to be put into a sealed chest and gently shoved aside, whilst the Church’s everyday practice towards divorced remarrieds, homosexuals, et al. becomes something very different.

Arius is indeed in town.

 

[gracepoole]

The only way to be disloyal is if we are disloyal to the gospel of Jesus Christ. Yes, we are to be loyal to the Pope, but, if the Pope himself were to declare something contrary to the gospel and to the doctrine of faith (and I am not saying he will, but ‘if’) we are OBLIGATED to disobey. We cannot follow any Priest, Bishop, Cardinal or even the Pope into dissent. But yes, this ‘relatio’ document is confusing and does give the impression that we are ‘valuing’ homosexual tendencies. DO NOT like the ‘VALUE’ part of that statement. I must admit, I have not read the ‘complete’ document yet, haven’t had time, but I read somewhere that they have a section in it on contraception. I’m almost afraid to read it.

There are already far-leaning groups on both ends of the spectrum who long ago determined that the Church is operating in contrast to the gospel and doctrine of the faith – they’re schismatic. What exactly makes them different than protestants?

 

[gilliam]

They don’t all intervene. This is saying there were 41 total interventions, most of which were against the proposal.

If I am not mistaken that just means 41 found fault with something in the document, not that they all agreed on anything in particular was wrong.

 

[gilliam]

Thinking all this over, I’ve just realised something. What we are witnessing is undoubtedly a coup d’etat at the highest levels of Church government, or as Michael Voris put it, a revolution (in the French Revolution sense of the word). .

No, and I wouldn’t trust Voris on anything dealing with the Church, the man has created a carrier on finding conspiracies in just about everything Church related. What we are seeing is a Synod (a discussion) and what they are doing is, well discussing.

 

[McCall1981]

If I am not mistaken that just means 41 found fault with something in the document, not that they all agreed on anything in particular was wrong.

I believe an intervention actually just means they spoke, not necessarily that they were against something.

But, Magister says the ones he listed “among others spoke up, all against an opening to second marriages as proposed by Cardinal Kasper”, so while I’m sure they don’t all agree on everything, they shared an agreement that the Kasper proposal was wrong.

 

[ynotzap]

To Christians, homo-sexuality, same-sex marriage, co-habitation are all immoral and sinful. Our consciences have been informed with the moral truths regarding them. We can not say the same for those involved in the immoral situations that they are committing sin, and we are commanded not to judge the person. We must realize that if the person is not blessed with the moral truths, then he can not give what he does not possess, and may not even sin at all. There is one consistent truth that permeates the scripture and that is God’s love for mankind. Jesus came as the sign of the Fathers love for all of us. We were loved while still in the state of sin, and must imitate Jesus if we are to please Him.

I made friends with several men that were homosexuals, they live across the street from me. My wife and I even took care of one when he was sick, another died of AIDS. I knew one of them for l3 years as a friend. He was chairman of the Alzheimer’s Association in my town. He help another partner receive a liver transplant. I tried for years to get him interested in the Catholic Church (he was baptized Catholic) He did show some interest. When gay marriage was accepted on the West Coast he became emboldened and he negative feeling about me came to the surface. I was shocked! We were open with each other for the most part, and I did mention that I could not agree with his life style, but I accepted him as a friend. He referred to the Pope and me as nuts. The whole block on my street was against us, yet we were kind to everyone, there were lesbians, homo-sexuals, and co-habitators. and free lovers, they even had a party, of course we weren’t invited. I told him that I knew he was homo-sexual for aproximately l3 years. He denied that he was:shrug: The very next day I read the local paper that he was caught in a homo-sexual sting in a neighboring town! He met me and said that he was in a state of denial, and now the whole world knew. My wife and I had to move Right next door lived a man that had some real mental problems. Satan was active, no doubt. I experienced great compassion for my neighbors. Time has passed, and my friend died, I was told that the man that bought my house hated homo-sexuals and he contributed to my friend’s death. Another amazing thing was that a Catholic lived in the same block, and actually thought I was a homo-sexual because of my friendship. He also hated homo-sexuals. I t,old him as Catholics the Church advises to love no matter what, he just walked away.
Even to this day I can approach those I knew on the block and still have a friendly relationship with them in spite of past events. We must forgive, and continue to love, we will never go wrong!

 

[weller2]

Arius is indeed in town.

Well, duh.

The Church has been in state of a de facto schism for the last 20 years if not more.

It’s time to finally face this and decide what to do.

 

[ringil]

Well, duh.

The Church has been in state of a de facto schism for the last 20 years if not more.

It’s time to finally face this and decide what to do.

It is evil to encourage schism. It is a design of the Devil Himself.

 

[McCall1981]

Card Muller says the recent document is “Undignified, Shameful, Completely Wrong.”

repubblica.it/esteri/2014/10/14/news/sinodo_mueller_critiche-98111405/?ref=HREC1-12

rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2014/10/the-great-division-muller-rips-synod.html

 

[ynotzap]

For me this in no Earthquake, it’s emphasizing the positive, the greatest commands are to Love God with all our strength, and to love our neighbor as ourselves. The Church could never ask us to compromise our morals or doctrine but she can shift the emphasis from negative to positive and get a headache working out the details, and Jesus is with us. Praise God!!

 

[RGCheek]

Jesus did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.

…because we are all sinners, and He calls us to be PENITENT sinners, not heedless sinners.

 

[RGCheek]

To Christians, homo-sexuality, same-sex marriage, co-habitation are all immoral and sinful. Our consciences have been informed with the moral truths regarding them. We can not say the same for those involved in the immoral situations that they are committing sin, and we are commanded not to judge the person. We must realize that if the person is not blessed with the moral truths, then he can not give what he does not possess, and may not even sin at all. There is one consistent truth that permeates the scripture and that is God’s love for mankind. Jesus came as the sign of the Fathers love for all of us. We were loved while still in the state of sin, and must imitate Jesus if we are to please Him.

I made friends with several men that were homosexuals, they live across the street from me. My wife and I even took care of one when he was sick, another died of AIDS. I knew one of them for l3 years as a friend. He was chairman of the Alzheimer’s Association in my town. He help another partner receive a liver transplant. I tried for years to get him interested in the Catholic Church (he was baptized Catholic) He did show some interest. When gay marriage was accepted on the West Coast he became emboldened and he negative feeling about me came to the surface. I was shocked! We were open with each other for the most part, and I did mention that I could not agree with his life style, but I accepted him as a friend. He referred to the Pope and me as nuts. The whole block on my street was against us, yet we were kind to everyone, there were lesbians, homo-sexuals, and co-habitators. and free lovers, they even had a party, of course we weren’t invited. I told him that I knew he was homo-sexual for aproximately l3 years. He denied that he was:shrug: The very next day I read the local paper that he was caught in a homo-sexual sting in a neighboring town! He met me and said that he was in a state of denial, and now the whole world knew. My wife and I had to move Right next door lived a man that had some real mental problems. Satan was active, no doubt. I experienced great compassion for my neighbors. Time has passed, and my friend died, I was told that the man that bought my house hated homo-sexuals and he contributed to my friend’s death. Another amazing thing was that a Catholic lived in the same block, and actually thought I was a homo-sexual because of my friendship. He also hated homo-sexuals. I t,old him as Catholics the Church advises to love no matter what, he just walked away.
Even to this day I can approach those I knew on the block and still have a friendly relationship with them in spite of past events. We must forgive, and continue to love, we will never go wrong!

Amen! Hate the sin, love the sinner and love them most by speaking Truth to them as you have done in a loving and respectful way.

Kudos!