Dresden riots: Protesters in Germany attack refugee buses shouting 'foreigners out'

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Path_Finder said:
Russia took in 12 million refugees, right. :rotfl:
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According to UN Data and according to “Russia cracking down on illegal migrants”. International Herald Tribune. January 15, 2007, Russia has anywhere from 10 to 12 million immigrants, second to the US which has more.
 
Path_Finder said:
Well, they sure weren’t powerful if we didn’t know who they were. Obama even called them JV. When did ISIS rise to power? We didn’t even know they existed until 2 years ago.
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Those groups morph and split off and reformulate. Al Baghdadi was an Al Quaeda fighter before he felt himself able to have his own organization. They resemble criminal organizations in some ways, and are opportunistic. You might have read that some of the remaining Al Quaeda leaders have condemned ISIS. And they would kill each other as readily as anyone else. It’s not dissimilar to Al Capone wiping out Moran and the Irish mob in Chicago and taking over their territory, notwithstanding that he had once operated in cooperation with them.
 
Tomdstone said:
Where was that written down in the treaty?
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I don’t have a copy handy. If you do, please post it.

Lots of treaties, like lots of leases, don’t say “oh, we’ll renegotiate this down the road”, principally because a promise to renegotiate isn’t a promise at all. But people do renegotiate all the time. The U.S. has renegotiated treaties with Japan and the Philippines and probably a lot of others. Apparently, it’s pretty common when states don’t want to commit themselves to a fixed set of obligations forever. cidcm.umd.edu/workshop/papers/Thompson_CIDCM_2013.pdf

Regardless, the fact is that Maliki wanted to renegotiate it, the Iraqis themselves wanted it, Obama made a brief pretense of renegotiating but made it impossible.

But I’ll ask it again. If you could have renegotiated a treaty leaving 25-27,000 troops there as the generals recommended, would you have done it?

Would you have done it for 10,000?
 
Ridgerunner said:
Those groups morph and split off and reformulate. Al Baghdadi was an Al Quaeda fighter before he felt himself able to have his own organization. They resemble criminal organizations in some ways, and are opportunistic. You might have read that some of the remaining Al Quaeda leaders have condemned ISIS. And they would kill each other as readily as anyone else. It’s not dissimilar to Al Capone wiping out Moran and the Irish mob in Chicago and taking over their territory, notwithstanding that he had once operated in cooperation with them.
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Agreed, truth is, ISIS did not rise to power until years after, President Obama came to power, few people heard of them as recently as 2 years ago or so. I certainly did not know who ISIS was. I’ll bet a search of this forum wouldn’t have threads on ISIS until the past 2 years.
 
The interesting thing in interviews recently,immigrants have expressed a wish to come to the UK but only as a stepping stone to the USA.
 
Path_Finder said:
Where is it written the President doesn’t take advice from his general, he didn’t take it, they know better. This is on Obama’s watch.
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What was written, signed and sealed by George Bush in 2008, was the agreement to withdraw all American troops from Iraq by Dec. 31, 2011.
 
meltzerboy said:
Ridgerunner;13220622:
I agree with No. 1. But he did not create the underlying conditions for it. If you want to take a partisan approach, Clinton could have had Bin Laden long before, but declined.
2. Bush the Elder and Saddam Hussein got us into the first phase of the Iraq War, which ended with a truce that was repeatedly broken by Saddam Hussein. Bush the Younger, the U.S. Congress and virtually every foreign intelligence agency, as well as Saddam’s shooting at U.S. and Brit planes in violation of the truce, got us into the second phase of the war.
3. While no attack has been as deadly as 911 since then, there have certainly been attacks. One needs to remember that the security apparatus under Obama was set up by Bush.
4. So, one Islamic radical leader was killed? Exactly how has that prevented the rise of ISIS, the takeover of Aden by A.Q., the Islamist takeover of much of North Africa and the flight of refugees from those areas? Manifestly, it did none of those things.

Without any pretense to legal skills, I would nevertheless at this point move for Summary Judgment inasmuch as your four points have neither proved a case against Bush or for Obama, even if the facts asserted are true, (which is not conceded) in the matter of the refugee crisis afflicting Europe and the refugees themselves.

For #2, I did use the term “protracted” war and, further, Obama voted against it in the Senate in the first place. And for #3, you know for a fact the nation’s defense was not modified in any way for the better by Obama?

Since a full counter-rebuttal would take us too far from the OP, the court is adjourned for the day.
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Ha! Probably wise.
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Tomdstone said:
What was written, signed and sealed by George Bush in 2008, was the agreement to withdraw all American troops from Iraq by Dec. 31, 2011.
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So? We are still in Afghanistan, we were scheduled to leave there too.
 
Tomdstone said:
What was written, signed and sealed by George Bush in 2008, was the agreement to withdraw all American troops from Iraq by Dec. 31, 2011.
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Lots of treaties aren’t permanent. Many are renegotiated. Maliki and his parliament were willing to renegotiate, including a status of forces agreement. Obama wouldn’t. That’s just history now. Obama’s own CIA chief admitted that much, and so did Obama.

Again. If you could have renegotiated a status of forces agreement keeping 25-27,000 American troops in Iraq, would you have done it?
 
Ridgerunner said:
Again. If you could have renegotiated a status of forces agreement keeping 25-27,000 American troops in Iraq, would you have done it?
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I don’t make flip decisions like that without researching the issue in depth.
 
Ridgerunner said:
Lots of treaties aren’t permanent. Many are renegotiated. Maliki and his parliament were willing to renegotiate, including a status of forces agreement. Obama wouldn’t. That’s just history now. Obama’s own CIA chief admitted that much, and so did Obama.

Again. If you could have renegotiated a status of forces agreement keeping 25-27,000 American troops in Iraq, would you have done it?
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General Lloyd Austin wanted us to stay there, there is nothing chiselled in concrete that we had to leave.

military.com/daily-news/2014/11/06/austin-says-time-not-right-for-us-combat-troops-in-iraq.html

Just saying Obama ignored the advice of his top general in the region speaks volumes as to where the blame for the breakdown partially lies at least. This is the President’s duty.
 
Tomdstone said:
I don’t make flip decisions like that without researching the issue in depth.
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Obama and his supporters must find it hard when their politically-driven decisions lead to predicted disaster.What can they say then, other than to blame Bush? Take responsibility for the result themselves? Certainly not that.
 
meltzerboy said:
For #2, I did use the term “protracted” war and, further, Obama voted against it in the Senate in the first place. And for #3, you know for a fact the nation’s defense was not modified in any way for the better by Obama?

Since a full counter-rebuttal would take us too far from the OP, the court is adjourned for the day.
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Obama was an Illinois state senator of little reputation (known mostly for voting “present”) when the Senate voted to authorize military force against Iraq in 2002. He was not in the US Senate.
 
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