Dresden riots: Protesters in Germany attack refugee buses shouting 'foreigners out'

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Tomdstone said:
Not all refugees are from Syria. For example, 1.85 million Kurds fled to the borders of Turkey from Iraq. Further, the USA has been bombing Syria. In fact, on September 10, Obama gave a speech, saying, “I have made it clear that we will hunt down terrorists who threaten our country, wherever they are. That means I will not hesitate to take action against ISIL in Syria, as well as Iraq.” People in Syria are fleeing from ISIL, which began soon after the US invaded Iraq. ISIL, also known as the Mujihadeen Shura Council, or the Army of the Levant was founded by Zarqawi. Zarqawi founded ISIL in response to the American invasion of Iraq, ordered by Bush.
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Zarquawi, born in Jordan, was an Islamic Sunni radical who was once a member of Al Quaeda before shifting to other groups. ISIS was not founded because of the American invasion of Iraq, but because Zarquawi and others were able to assemble fighters and terrorists of like mind in Syria. Zarquawi was indeed involved in Iraq earlier, though, declaring “war on all Shiites” there, and split off from Al Quaeda because of his own ambitions. He and other ISIS members are at war with all “infidels”, which includes not only westerners, but Shiites, “pagans”, Jews, “heretics” (as defined by them) and even Sunni who are not deemed sufficiently “pure”. Al Quaeda included Saddam Hussein in its list of “infidels”, just as it has Assad.

Obama was informed by the DIA what it would take to bottle up ISIS in Syria. There aren’t many roads, travel through the desert and mountains is otherwise impossible for any sizeable group, and it could have been done. But Obama ignored the DIA because he wanted to pull the U.S. out of Iraq for political reasons.

This really isn’t a case of a poor, benighted “little brown brother” acting the way he does because of the U.S. He acted the way he did because he was a thoroughly bad and ambitious man, and perfectly capable of being both without the U.S.
 
Ridgerunner said:
Zarquawi, born in Jordan, was an Islamic Sunni radical who was once a member of Al Quaeda before shifting to other groups. ISIS was not founded because of the American invasion of Iraq, but because Zarquawi and others were able to assemble fighters and terrorists of like mind in Syria. Zarquawi was indeed involved in Iraq earlier, though, declaring “war on all Shiites” there, and split off from Al Quaeda because of his own ambitions. He and other ISIS members are at war with all “infidels”, which includes not only westerners, but Shiites, “pagans”, Jews, “heretics” (as defined by them) and even Sunni who are not deemed sufficiently “pure”. Al Quaeda included Saddam Hussein in its list of “infidels”, just as it has Assad.

Obama was informed by the DIA what it would take to bottle up ISIS in Syria. There aren’t many roads, travel through the desert and mountains is otherwise impossible for any sizeable group, and it could have been done. But Obama ignored the DIA because he wanted to pull the U.S. out of Iraq for political reasons.

This really isn’t a case of a poor, benighted “little brown brother” acting the way he does because of the U.S. He acted the way he did because he was a thoroughly bad and ambitious man, and perfectly capable of being both without the U.S.
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In a letter to al-Zarqawi in July 2005, Ayman al-Zawahiri outlined a plan to expel US forces from Iraq, and to establish an Islamic authority as a caliphate. The result was the establishment of ISI, later known as ISIL, from which many Syrian refugees are fleeing today.
 
Tomdstone said:
In a letter to al-Zarqawi in July 2005, Ayman al-Zawahiri outlined a plan to expel US forces from Iraq, and to establish an Islamic authority as a caliphate. The result was the establishment of ISI, later known as ISIL, from which many Syrian refugees are fleeing today.
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The Muslim Brotherhood, the parent organization of all the radical Islamist organizations, has always opposed the influence of “infidels” in the Middle East. That includes Shiites, Jews, “pagans”, “heretics” and “impure” Sunni. It dates back to at least the 1930s. They tried to assassinate Nasser and did assassinate Sadat. This is an old war, and is not dependent on U.S. involvement.

ISIS could have been kept in Syria. The U.S. was not involved in Syria until very recently. It didn’t need to infect Iraq, and didn’t until Obama abandoned it. Most of the refugees talked out in this thread are Syrians. In Europe they’re mainly from Syria and North Africa.

So, of course Sawahiri and Zarquawi wanted the U.S. out of Iraq. They want the Kurds and Shiites out too, along with all “infidel” Sunni. The U.S. was a strong force standing in the way of their ambitions, but we bugged out, leaving the Sunni areas to them and the Shiite areas to Iran. That’s where the battle line is now, between ISIS and Iran.
 
Ridgerunner said:
Your argument assumes, strangely for a liberal, that indigenous peoples are incapable of developing their own objectives, cultures, resentments, and dynamics. “Wogs begin at Calais” redux.
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At its heart, Progressivism has always been a racist ideology. Whether it was Margaret Sanger and her lot advocating birth control and forced sterilization to keep the brown/black population down, or the current softer racism of denying the moral agency of non-whites, Progressives have always considered non-whites to be subhuman. Sometimes they let the mask slip, like when Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader-Ginsburg, a formerly of the ACLU, said "Frankly, I had thought that at the time Roe was decided, there was concern about population growth and particularly growth in populations that we don’t want to have too many of." (you know, wink-wink, nudge-nudge, black people).
 
Ridgerunner said:
So, of course Sawahiri and Zarquawi wanted the U.S. out of Iraq. They want the Kurds and Shiites out too, along with all “infidel” Sunni.
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Iraq was an artificially man made country imposed on the area by the British in 1916, under the Sykes-Picot Agreement. British forces captured Baghdad in 1917, Naturally, the people of the area do not appreciate having their country invaded and controlled by Britain or the United States.
 
Ridgerunner said:
ISIS could have been kept in Syria. It didn’t need to infect Iraq, and didn’t until Obama abandoned it.
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ISIL was in Iraq, not Syria, from the very beginning of its existence. ISI, the Islamic State of Iraq , was declared on October 13, 2006, when the Mujahideen Shura Council united with several other Sunni groups and swore by Allah: “to rid Sunnis from the oppression of the rejectionists (Shi’ite Muslims) and the crusader occupiers … to restore rights even at the price of our own lives … to make Allah’s word supreme in the world, and to restore the glory of Islam”.
It was not Obama, but it was George Bush who signed the U.S.-Iraq Status of Forces Agreement in December 2008. The agreement, signed by Bush, established that U.S. combat forces would withdraw from Iraqi cities by June 30, 2009, and that all U.S. forces would be completely out of Iraq by December 31, 2011.
 
Tomdstone said:
ISIL was in Iraq, not Syria, from the very beginning of its existence. ISI, the Islamic State of Iraq , was declared on October 13, 2006, when the Mujahideen Shura Council united with several other Sunni groups and swore by Allah: “to rid Sunnis from the oppression of the rejectionists (Shi’ite Muslims) and the crusader occupiers … to restore rights even at the price of our own lives … to make Allah’s word supreme in the world, and to restore the glory of Islam”.
It was not Obama, but it was George Bush who signed the U.S.-Iraq Status of Forces Agreement in December 2008. The agreement, signed by Bush, established that U.S. combat forces would withdraw from Iraqi cities by June 30, 2009, and that all U.S. forces would be completely out of Iraq by December 31, 2011.
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If, indeed, ISIS was present in Iraq in 2006, it was there with Al Quaeda, of which it is just an offshoot in its origination. So, is your point that radical Sunni Islamists’ hatred of Shiites is created by America? Seeing that they have been at war off and on for more than a thousand years, that seems like taking Bush-hating to an extreme.

Did you expect the Iraqis or Americans, either one, to provide for U.S. troops forever? Nation to nation agreements more often than not have sunsets. But regardless, the Iraqis were willing to sign a new treaty. Obama was not, as he admitted on national TV.

Amazing that the left is so into blaming Bush for everything, that they blame him for what Obama said, himself, that he did.
 
Ridgerunner said:
Amazing that the left is so into blaming Bush for everything, …
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I don’t know who the “left” is , but I am not blaming Bush “for everything.” Who on CAF has blamed Bush “for everything”? I do claim that he decided to intervene in Iraq and that in December 2008, two years after the official founding of ISI, he signed the U.S.-Iraq Status of Forces Agreement which established that U.S. combat forces would withdraw from Iraqi cities by June 30, 2009, and that all U.S. forces would be completely out of Iraq by December 31, 2011. Since the Bush invasion, the place is a real mess with tens of thousands of innocent young girls being forcibly raped by ISIS followers. This, of course, is Bush’s fault also, since ISIS began and gained support as an effort to fight the Bush led invasion of the area.
 
Tomdstone said:
I don’t know who the “left” is , but I am not blaming Bush “for everything.” Who on CAF has blamed Bush “for everything”? I do claim that he decided to intervene in Iraq and that in December 2008, two years after the official founding of ISI, he signed the U.S.-Iraq Status of Forces Agreement which established that U.S. combat forces would withdraw from Iraqi cities by June 30, 2009, and that all U.S. forces would be completely out of Iraq by December 31, 2011. Since the Bush invasion, the place is a real mess with tens of thousands of innocent young girls being forcibly raped by ISIS followers. This, of course, is Bush’s fault also, since ISIS began and gained support as an effort to fight the Bush led invasion of the area.
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The Iraqi government was willing to negotiate a new agreement, but Obama wouldn’t make it worth anything to them. They wanted 25,000 troops and Obama offered 3,000…smaller than the ineffective force we have there now. The Iraqis knew that was not going to do the job, and so did Obama.

So, you would, indeed, put Saddam Hussein back in power if you could. Seeing how Assad is faring, that is not as hopeful a prospect as some might wish to think.

Girls were raped under Saddam. The root organization for ISIS long predated even the first Gulf War. Obviously you are ignoring even Al Quaeda’s admission that it was whipped in Iraq under Bush, and Zarquawi’s 2005 statement that he was in Iraq (still part of Al Quaeda then) to “war against the Shiites”.

You can, and do, blame Bush for the Iraq War, second phase, but the pullout was 100% Obama’s. He didn’t need to do it. His own generals and CIA advised against it, but he did it anyway because he figured it would be popular with his core constituency. He was right about that part of it.

And girls are being raped in Libya and Syria, and Bush had nothing whatever to do with either of those.

But we can stipulate that you will blame Bush no matter what the facts are.
 
Ridgerunner said:
And girls are being raped in Libya and Syria, and Bush had nothing whatever to do with either of those.
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Who is raping these thousands of innocent young ladies? It is the soldiers of ISIS? And when, how, and why did ISIS begin? It began as a reaction to the American intervention in Iraq. BTW, who was the American President who ordered the invasion of Iraq, which even his brother Jeb Bush said: “knowing what we know now, …I would not have engaged.”
“I would not have gone into Iraq,” is what Jeb Bush said!!
 
Ridgerunner said:
But we can stipulate that you will blame Bush no matter what the facts are.
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I think you are getting me confused with Jeb Bush, the brother of George Bush. Wasn’t it Jeb Bush who implied that the American intervention in Iraq was a mistake?
 
Tomdstone said:
Because the problems that these refugees are facing is due to the fact that the area was invaded by the US.
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Again, completely different issues. Many of those refugees have nothing to do with the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan.
 
If one looks at Iran’s role over there, if anything, they are fomenting the problems in that area but not to lay all blame on them, this is the ancient Shia/Sunni conflict.

No one of any authority outside of the Russian/Iran orbit make the analogy that the US is the cause of the problem, you don’t find this with the Egyptians or Syrians or Kurds. So it is safe to say, this is mostly propaganda.

If the USA was the cause, I’d expect the President of Egypt to say such.

Another problem is the long running toxic dictatorship of Syria for years running.

It is definitely, a complex situation.
 
Tomdstone said:
Who is raping these thousands of innocent young ladies? It is the soldiers of ISIS? And when, how, and why did ISIS begin? It began as a reaction to the American intervention in Iraq. BTW, who was the American President who ordered the invasion of Iraq, which even his brother Jeb Bush said: “knowing what we know now, …I would not have engaged.”
“I would not have gone into Iraq,” is what Jeb Bush said!!
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Am I supposed to be swayed by what Jeb Bush said? Interesting to see you consider him authoritative, and I’ll remember how you revered his opinion in this.

But while I’m not a Jeb Bush fan, I would agree with him to this extent. If I had known back at the beginning that Obama would walk away from the effort to bring peace to the Middle East and turn it over to radical Sunni and Iran to fight over, my response would have been the same.

ISIS, of course, is an outgrowth of Muslim Brotherhood which Obama helped gain power in Egypt, not of anything Bush did or didn’t do. Being “at war with the Shiites” in Iraq was the primary objective of the ISIS founders, as you know. Still is, of course. The west had a chance to prevent that bloodletting and, for a time, succeeded. When Obama walked away, it put the worst people in charge of events.
 
Tomdstone said:
Who is raping these thousands of innocent young ladies? It is the soldiers of ISIS? And when, how, and why did ISIS begin? It began as a reaction to the American intervention in Iraq. BTW, who was the American President who ordered the invasion of Iraq, which even his brother Jeb Bush said: “knowing what we know now, …I would not have engaged.”
“I would not have gone into Iraq,” is what Jeb Bush said!!
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Jeb Bush made that statement after about five days of changing his initial statement and indecisive hesitation. I thought much better of Jeb before he started campaigning.
 
I really wish Jeb would point out that action in Iraq stopped genocide against the Kurds. The Kurds thanked the US and even ran tv ads stating such. I’d think much more of Jeb if he would state such. I even wrote him and I believe his email address is “jeb@jeb.com”. The Republican candidates should highlight this, if they are against the abortion industry and planned parenthood, likewise, they should be against other forms of genocide.
 
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