I
I_Leatherman
Guest
You might tell her that there is alcohol in milk. Its a natural thing, calfs love it, she has been drinking alcohol since childhood. No harm done.
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C
Clovis
Guest
Any over-indulgence can surely be sinful, but the sin comes from the guilt tied to be tied to the indulgence. Isaiah warned of people who wake to drink and drink into the night until they sting all over with drunkenness. On the other hand Job, beloved by God, drank during meals to celebrate, never as an end in itself. The same could be said for gluttony or cigarette smoking, or in general, what ever you are attached in an addictive way, simply because it blurs that life, as Christ said, is much more than the things of this world.
J
Jerry-Jet
Guest
Drinking wine is not a sin.
Using grape juice instead of wine to make a mockery of the Eucharist is a sin.
Using grape juice instead of wine to make a mockery of the Eucharist is a sin.
C
Catholig
Guest
I did a search for “wine” using Vulsearch and apparently the word wine appears in 232 separate verses.I know, it’s laughable…you don’t have to tell me twice.
I have been on an Evangelical forum lately seeing what the latest things are taught and believed. Anyways, this girl had the audacity to say that drinking wine is sinful. She then went as far to say that the wine had no alcohol. I told her that the burden of proof was upon her.
Another person chimed in saying that he wanted to see proof from Scripture that drinking wine was ok. I know there’s a passage where St. Paul tells people to drink wine to settle their stomachs or something to that effect. If someone could direct me in that direction, I would appreciate it.
In Pax Christi
Andrew
Catholig
F
fellowChristian
Guest
1869 Dr. Thomas Bramwell Welch, a physician and dentist by profession, successfully pasteurizes Concord grape juice to produce an “unfermented sacramental wine” for fellow parishioners at his church in Vineland, N.J., where he is communion steward. His achievement marks the beginning of the processed fruit juice industry.
welchs.com/company/company_history.html
You need a refrigerator to stop the fermentation process. Otherwise the sugar changes into alcohol.
Ethyl Alcohol
The alcohol found in alcoholic beverages is ethyl alcohol (ethanol). The molecular structure of ethanol looks like this:
H
H3 C - C - O - H
H
In this structure, C is carbon, H is hydrogen, O is oxygen and the hyphens are the chemical bonds between the atoms. For purposes of clarity, the bonds between the three hydrogen atoms and the left carbon atom are not shown. The OH (O-H) group on the molecule is what gives it the specific chemical properties of an alcohol. For the remainder of this article, when we say “alcohol,” we mean ethanol.
You will not find pure alcohol in most drinks; drinking pure alcohol can be deadly because it only takes a few ounces of pure alcohol to quickly raise the blood alcohol level into the danger zone. For various types of beverages, the ethanol concentration (by volume) is as follows:
Beer = 4 to 6 percent (average of about 4.5 percent)
Wine = 7 to 15 percent (average of about 11 percent)
Champagne = 8 to 14 percent (average of about 12 percent)
Distilled spirits (e.g. rum, gin, vodka, whiskey) = 40 to 95 percent
Most of the typical spirits purchased in liquor stores are 40 percent alcohol.
Some highly concentrated forms of rum and whisky (75 to 90 percent) can be purchased in liquor stores.
Some highly concentrated forms of whiskey (i.e. moonshine) can be made and/or purchased illegally.
welchs.com/company/company_history.html
You need a refrigerator to stop the fermentation process. Otherwise the sugar changes into alcohol.
Ethyl Alcohol
The alcohol found in alcoholic beverages is ethyl alcohol (ethanol). The molecular structure of ethanol looks like this:
H
H3 C - C - O - H
H
In this structure, C is carbon, H is hydrogen, O is oxygen and the hyphens are the chemical bonds between the atoms. For purposes of clarity, the bonds between the three hydrogen atoms and the left carbon atom are not shown. The OH (O-H) group on the molecule is what gives it the specific chemical properties of an alcohol. For the remainder of this article, when we say “alcohol,” we mean ethanol.
You will not find pure alcohol in most drinks; drinking pure alcohol can be deadly because it only takes a few ounces of pure alcohol to quickly raise the blood alcohol level into the danger zone. For various types of beverages, the ethanol concentration (by volume) is as follows:
Beer = 4 to 6 percent (average of about 4.5 percent)
Wine = 7 to 15 percent (average of about 11 percent)
Champagne = 8 to 14 percent (average of about 12 percent)
Distilled spirits (e.g. rum, gin, vodka, whiskey) = 40 to 95 percent
Most of the typical spirits purchased in liquor stores are 40 percent alcohol.
Some highly concentrated forms of rum and whisky (75 to 90 percent) can be purchased in liquor stores.
Some highly concentrated forms of whiskey (i.e. moonshine) can be made and/or purchased illegally.
F
fellowChristian
Guest
Thomas Bramwell Welch (December 31, 1825 - 1903) was the discoverer of the pasteurization process to prevent the fermentation of grape juice. Welch was born in Glastonbury, England. He came to the United States when his father emigrated in 1834.
He attended public schools in Watertown, New York and then attended a seminary in Gouverneur. He then attended medical school, becoming a physician in Penn Yan, New York. Welch then relocated to Minnesota and changed his profession to dentistry. In 1865, Welch removed to Vineland, New Jersey, where a sister already resided.
In 1869, **Welch **discovered a method of pasteurizing grape juice so that fermentation was stopped, and the drink was non-alcoholic. He persuaded local churches to adopt this non-alcoholic “wine” for communion services, calling it “Dr. Welch’s Unfermented Wine.” His son Charles E Welch, also a dentist, promoted the sale and consumption of grape juice and helped found Welch’s Grape Juice Company. Thomas Welch also founded a dental products company and began a dentistry journal.
Welch was a Methodist and staunch Prohibitionist, who actively worked to reduce or end the sale of alcoholic beverages in New Jersey and adjacent regions.
He died in Vineland.
He attended public schools in Watertown, New York and then attended a seminary in Gouverneur. He then attended medical school, becoming a physician in Penn Yan, New York. Welch then relocated to Minnesota and changed his profession to dentistry. In 1865, Welch removed to Vineland, New Jersey, where a sister already resided.
In 1869, **Welch **discovered a method of pasteurizing grape juice so that fermentation was stopped, and the drink was non-alcoholic. He persuaded local churches to adopt this non-alcoholic “wine” for communion services, calling it “Dr. Welch’s Unfermented Wine.” His son Charles E Welch, also a dentist, promoted the sale and consumption of grape juice and helped found Welch’s Grape Juice Company. Thomas Welch also founded a dental products company and began a dentistry journal.
Welch was a Methodist and staunch Prohibitionist, who actively worked to reduce or end the sale of alcoholic beverages in New Jersey and adjacent regions.
He died in Vineland.
R
Ruthie
Guest
I, too, have fought this battle. Those who want to believe drinking any alcoholic beverage is a sin rationalize it by saying all the “wine” in the Bible is really only grape juice.
They have to give up logic to do this.
An argument they can’t answer is from Mt 9:17.
Neither is new wine put into old wineskins; if it is, the skins burst, and the wine is spilled, and the skins are destroyed; but new wine is put into fresh wineskins, and so both are preserved." (RSV)
A by-product of fermentation is gas. That is what would stretch a “used” skin to bursting point. The old skin had already been stretched out. Thus, even in “new wine” was grape juice, it was obviously expected to ferment.
Oh, and Leatherman was wrong; there is no alcohol in milk. If one goes to some trouble, milk can be fermented - but if left to itself, it just goes sour.
Good luck!
Ruthie
Tiber swim team '06
They have to give up logic to do this.
An argument they can’t answer is from Mt 9:17.
Neither is new wine put into old wineskins; if it is, the skins burst, and the wine is spilled, and the skins are destroyed; but new wine is put into fresh wineskins, and so both are preserved." (RSV)
A by-product of fermentation is gas. That is what would stretch a “used” skin to bursting point. The old skin had already been stretched out. Thus, even in “new wine” was grape juice, it was obviously expected to ferment.
Oh, and Leatherman was wrong; there is no alcohol in milk. If one goes to some trouble, milk can be fermented - but if left to itself, it just goes sour.
Good luck!
Ruthie
Tiber swim team '06
G
gus
Guest
Iterestingly today’s Gospel was Luke 10
Direction to the 70 verse seven "
Eat and Drink whatever if offered you
Direction to the 70 verse seven "
Eat and Drink whatever if offered you
I
I_Leatherman
Guest
Alkylglycerols are naturally occurring esters, which are chemicals formed by the combination of a fatty acid and an alcohol molecule .
Alkylglycerols occur naturally in mother’s milk. There are ten times more alkylglycerols in human milk than in cow’s milk.
L
lak611
Guest
So does that mean that babies who are breastfed sleep well because they are drunk?Alkylglycerols are naturally occurring esters, which are chemicals formed by the combination of a fatty acid and an alcohol molecule .
Alkylglycerols occur naturally in mother’s milk. There are ten times more alkylglycerols in human milk than in cow’s milk.
I
I_Leatherman
Guest
Its a tiny amount of alcohol, its also chemically combined to form as ester. Its natural, its an alcohol molecule, it has its own purpose - but no, your babies won’t fall around the place drunk, they’ll just fall around the place.
R
Robin
Guest
Many years-ago I personally worked in vineyard high up in the hills of Heidelberg, Germany. Just for fun. I picked grapes with my landlord and his son. Tossed them into the big plastic barrel and followed the tiny horsecart with its big barrel of grapes way down below where we put them in a press and a few hours later into huge wooden winebarrels in his cellar. 4 to be exact- and laying over even, as high as my shoulders. Even as we were picking them, you could smell the fermentation process taking place. This was new wine. This was new wine already fermenting in the field and as the little shetland pony pulled the cart down the mountain. \
New Wine is Not Grape Juice. All fruits have this tendency to immediately start fermenting and therefore producing alcohol.
Have you ever seen drunken birds under a peach tree surrounded by fallen peaches? God made alcohol- and wine. For medication - and for relaxation. He also gave us a brain to not use it in excess.
Rob
D
drafdog
Guest
Everyone on this thread who quoted scripture missed my favorite answer to the problem of the consumption of alcoholic beverages.
Psalm 104:15 Blesses God for the fruit of the vine which gladdens men’s hearts.
Ask your friend when was the last time the drinking of Welch’s “gladdened” his heart.
Matthew
Psalm 104:15 Blesses God for the fruit of the vine which gladdens men’s hearts.
Ask your friend when was the last time the drinking of Welch’s “gladdened” his heart.
Matthew
T
thechrismyster
Guest
in a mixer with a little vodka, perhaps.
D
dixieagle
Guest
Andrew,
Boy, I think you are beating your head against a brick wall here!!! I can just about assure you that NOTHING you say, quote from Scripture, etc., will make a bit of difference. They will continue to insist the “wine” was non-alcoholic, etc., etc., etc.
My dear departed Irish mother used to say “Don’t confuse me with facts, my mind is made up!” Sounds as if that is what you are up against. Good luck!
Peace!
Boy, I think you are beating your head against a brick wall here!!! I can just about assure you that NOTHING you say, quote from Scripture, etc., will make a bit of difference. They will continue to insist the “wine” was non-alcoholic, etc., etc., etc.
My dear departed Irish mother used to say “Don’t confuse me with facts, my mind is made up!” Sounds as if that is what you are up against. Good luck!
Peace!
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