Drowning is rules?

[lizaanne]

No, we aren’t drowning in rules, and there is nothing wrong with liking things done properly and reverently–especially when they’re done for God.

Notice how in the Gospels Jesus reminds the Jews that they ought to obey the Pharisees, despite all the minutitaes and taboos of Jewish Law, because the Law was God’s will. Similarly, we ought to follow the rules given us by the Magisterium, for every rule is in place for a reason.

However, placing rules above their object–the reverent worship of God–is a terrible sin.

To sum things up, rules are in place for the greater glory of God, and should be gently corrected not for the sake of following rules, but so that we may grow closer to God.

The situation is like saying the Rosary. Protestants accuse Catholics of meaningless, repititious prayer, which would almost be true of the rosary, were it not for the mysteries. Rules without the intention of greater praise to God is like the Rosary without the mysteries–relatively hollow. When both are combined, however, wonderful things happen.

Now this makes the most sense I’ve read here so far.

Just as words mean things and we need to use them properly, so it goes with rules. We have rules for a reason. Without them we would be just like all the wishy washy feel good congregations out there who have forgotten what it’s like to truly worship God in all the fullness of his One True Faith.

No - I don’t have a problem with rules. It is a matter of obedience and submission. No one said it would be easy to be a Catholic.

~Liza

 

[mikeledes]

A lot of people in todays world have the same problem, they run from honesty and want things laid sweet. It is in fact, a true wonder that half the people out there continue to hold down jobs and lives in spite of themselves. this is testament to God’s great grace.

I’m not criticizing anyone, i’m stating how people are. i’m not looking for people to whisper sweet happiness into my ear regarding the feigned intelligence of the public at large. And i have no interest in leading by example, i have never changed anyone nor will I. to fight that battle is an exercise in futility. To think you will change anyone from a non-thinking, self absorbed person into a person who ‘gets it’… well, i won’t fight a battle i can’t win.

God can handle the conversions, i’m simply calling the game pitch for pitch.

have you seen the world around you? the evidence for the deficient nature of the average person is all around you. from the bishop in san fran to birth control pills given to middle schoolchildren in maine to the middle east and the problems on the rest of the globe… the evidence is overwhelming that points to humans on the whole as being quite incapable of taking care of their own interests.

First, let me respond to this with the following verse:

2 Timothy 2:24-25

24The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged,
25with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition,

Your post does not meet the above requirements. It reeks with arrogance. Who are you to say that those who disagree with Catholic teachings or rules are genetically wired to be stupid and thus will never get it? That sounds more like Social Darwinism and eugenics than Christian charity. In fact, it sounds like something a Pharisee would say and we all know what Jesus thought of them.

God bless,
Michael

 

[George_Waters]

MooCowSteph,

Hang in there and keep the faith Sister!

 

[Brendan]

perhaps i shall agree with you. fine.
we are all on a level playing field. there is no difference in intelligence, the suicide bombers who killed 51 people in Pakistan a few hours ago are just as intelligent as the Pope. Everyone is equal. all people are exactly the same. no one is smarter than anyone else.

no. doesn’t pass the laugh test.

I’m really not stating anything but the obvious. there are some opinions that aren’t as intelligent as others. what is uncharitable about that? some opinions by posters are plain wrong.

No there IS a difference in intelligence. There are those who are intelligent enough to be able to read, understand accept and practice the rules set out for the goverance of the Church.

And there are those who are to unintelligent to do so.

One is given as Wisdom by the Holy Spirit ( as articulated in Vatican I- Pastor Aeturnus)

Both clergy and faithful, of whatever rite and dignity, both singly and collectively, are bound to submit to this power by the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, and this not only in matters concerning faith and morals, but also in those which regard the discipline and government of the Church throughout the world.

There are those who, through the Wisdom of the Holy Spirit, can see God’s Hand in all the goverance of the Church, and those who are too unintelligent to recognize the gift.

There are those who are intelligent enough to recognize when their fellow Christians err, either through no fault of their own, or through deliberate neglicte, and will offer a hand and assistance in walking the narrow path; they recognize that Christ really IS the Truth, and a deviation from Truth is a deviation from Christ

And there are those who are too unintelligent to see their brother in need and to know what assistance to offer.

Yes, there most certainly IS a difference in Intelligence.

 

[MooCowSteph]

Thomas Jefferson aside (you know, he actually ‘rewrote’ his own personal copy of the Bible to get rid of anything which hinted at miracles and things he didn’t care for, just to put him into context), I agree that there are scrupulous people out there in religion (or anywhere) who tend to focus on ‘rules alone’. But they are by far the minority, here and anywhere else.

That being said, I would like to point out (hopefully gently) that it is entirely possible that rather than fire up at your (and others) perceptions and judgments about being ‘too focused on rules’ that you stand back and consider:

Is it possible that there may have been in the not-at-all-distant-past a rather widespread disregard of ‘da rules’ in favor of an emphasis on various other elements of Catholicism, such that, right now, in many places, there are many, many people who really do not know much of their faith at all. For these people, after some 30 or 40 years of hearing only, “God is love” and “trust your feelings”, to ‘suddenly’ hear, for example, “Mass attendence on Sundays and holydays of obligation is a grave matter, and one is not to miss Mass save for serious illness or obligation”, is going to come as a shock. Therefore, they will start to inundate these boards, or their friends, or their parish DRE or priest, with, “I missed Mass because I was just too tired . . . but nobody ever bothered me about this BEFORE”.

You definitely make good points. It sure does seem like a whole lot of people in the pews are CINO and not at all interested in the rules, and probably don’t even know we’re supposed to follow rules. I guess I’m more thinking about the kind of people who come to these forums, people who are serious about their faith and want to follow the rules. I think there are so many rules and guidelines in the Catholic church, it’s easy to get overwhelmed. I think we can get so wrapped up in following the rules, making sure our parish follows the rules, and making sure we preach the rules, coming to the forums to discuss the rules…I was just as guilty of this as anyone, and even confronted my priest about the way things were being done. But I realize now how much I missed out, how much energy I spent worrying about what was going on there, and that energy would have so much better been spent growing my faith and my personal relationship with the Lord.

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

You definitely make good points. It sure does seem like a whole lot of people in the pews are CINO and not at all interested in the rules, and probably don’t even know we’re supposed to follow rules. I guess I’m more thinking about the kind of people who come to these forums, people who are serious about their faith and want to follow the rules. I think there are so many rules and guidelines in the Catholic church, it’s easy to get overwhelmed. I think we can get so wrapped up in following the rules, making sure our parish follows the rules, and making sure we preach the rules, coming to the forums to discuss the rules…I was just as guilty of this as anyone, and even confronted my priest about the way things were being done. But I realize now how much I missed out, how much energy I spent worrying about what was going on there, and that energy would have so much better been spent growing my faith and my personal relationship with the Lord.

I think people get most worked up over violations of the rules when 1) those violations seem to clearly change the message conveyed and/or 2) the violator is purposefully disobedient. People don’t get worked up over purely administrative problems: “My pastor is paying a man to be Liturgical Music Coordinator when the diocesan guidelines clearly say that anyone without an advanced degree in music can only have the job title of Sacred Music Facilitator!”

Rather, they get worked up when Father is doing something that they feel, for instance, decreases reverence for the Blessed Sacrament. They know there are rules about things somewhere, and, lo and behold!, Father actually isn’t allowed to do that anyway. Look, this even says why he’s not allowed! But I’ve tried to explain to him why this is upsetting and why the Church forbids it, and he refuses to simply do what is right! That gets people going.

On the whole, I think people get most concerned with the rules when they are keenly aware of the reasons behind the rules. The biggest fight we tend to see is when someone asks whether something is allowed, a correct response is given, and then another poster says, “But I don’t see why we should bother following it when nothing matters except that we love God.” This prompts people to jump in with the theological rationale behind the rule, and people counter with why they think a rule reflecting a different theological position would be better. It turns out, people aren’t arguing about rules but about 1) the theological reasons for following rules in general, 2) the theological reasons behind rules in particular, and 3) whether or not a better reason exists that would recommend adopting a different rule.

There are three main kinds of overboard: those who want to enforce rules without charity or sensitivity to the real, deeper reasons for their existence; those who simply don’t get why we need to follow any rules to begin with; those who know the rules but try to demean other people for not going the extra mile when they feel the rule is too lax. Outside of these, I think people can and should discuss the rules with a theological perspective, which we manage to do on these forums until someone derails a thread.

 

[scylla]

Rules are stupid, it is all about your relationship.

Why go to Church?, that is just a rule.
Why can’t I cheat on my wife? that is just a meaningless rule that keeps me from the freedom of just moving how the spirit moves me.
Why can’t I just go to the tabernacle, grab a few hosts and take them home for me and my buddies? Why do I have to kneel? God is tough enough to handle me standing up whenever I want to. It doesn’t hurt God if I step on the Blessed Sacrament, so what?
Rules keep me from expressing myself how I want to. It impedes my freedom to dance in church, dress how I want, worship how I want… \example

Count how many times I used the word, I or me and you will see how the focus of person determines their point of view.
The focus on self makes for a desire for things to allow personal freedom.
The focus on submission to God changes that desire to an obedience of God’s will.

The difference is choosing between what is God’s will over man’s will, too often these days we have replaced a seeking of obedience for a desire for personal freedom.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[tomaquin88]

Is it possible that there may have been in the not-at-all-distant-past a rather widespread disregard of ‘da rules’ in favor of an emphasis on various other elements of Catholicism, such that, right now, in many places, there are many, many people who really do not know much of their faith at all.

This is a good point. Not to know our faith is a misery and many who convert or revert discovers the wonder and beauty of the catholic faith. BUT - there are many who are obsessed with rules and regulations, especially when it comes to the sacraments. Instead of being true mysteries they become handling liturgy or confession. Jesus Christ is the center rather than managing his Church. Or better: Jesus is the Church, not our management of it.

Tom

 

[thechrismyster]

It reeks with arrogance.

Mr. plank, meet Mr. eye. Mr. eye, meet Mr. plank.

see, you’ve judged my posts as arrogant just like i do to the posts i think are unintelligent by my standards…

whats the difference? two sides of the same coin.

 

[anamchara]

No there IS a difference in intelligence. There are those who are intelligent enough to be able to read, understand accept and practice the rules set out for the goverance of the Church.

And there are those who are to unintelligent to do so.

 

[thechrismyster]

=
And, you didn’t say their arguments lacked intelligence - you said that the people themselves lack intelligence. There’s a big difference between the two concepts.=

whats the problem with admitting some people aren’t as smart as others? and i’m not talking education, educated derelicts are almost a proverb as coolidge said, i simply mean looking at someones posts and taking them as a looking glass into their mind.

i’m only after honesty. perhaps we should segue into a new thread and give steph her thread back.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

It’s like we have to ask ourselves, “does the Church allow this?” before we can do anything.

You’re not far off. The real question we must ask ourselves before any action is: “does God allow this?”. Or to rephrase in a more positive manner: “is this action in conformity with the will of God?”.

All of the seemingly small minutiae that you mentioned are just applications of this question.

For instance “Is smoking a sin?”. Let us ask “is this action in conformity with the will of God”. To do the will of God, we must not willingly break the Commandments. One of the Commandments is - thou shall not kill. That Commandment covers all violent crimes - murder, assaults, anger, etc. That means we can’t do physical harm to others or ourselves. To smoke causes significant damage to ourselves and those within breathing distance of ourselves. Maybe in the 40’s and 50’s smoking wasn’t sinful because we lacked the knowledge of its dangers - but today only the truly stupid will deny the dangers of smoking. Thus smoking is harmful to ourselves and others and thus goes against the will of God so it is sinful.

The above was easy because it was something general. Most of the other questions are less easy because they are specific. So they must be taken on a case by case basis. Those that occur in private should remain so, that means others shouldn’t worry about them unless they are one of the following:

1.) the sinner
2.) the sinner’s confessor
3.) the sinner’s guardian angel
4.) God

 

[Pong]

I agree with ya’ Chris. I can’t tell you how many eye rolls I’ve wasted on this forum on threads disputing the same trivial thing for the 14th time… I wonder sometimes how it is possible to be so caught up in such ridiculous things, unless one does it deliberately.

 

[djrakowski]

whats the problem with admitting some people aren’t as smart as others? and i’m not talking education, educated derelicts are almost a proverb as coolidge said, i simply mean looking at someones posts and taking them as a looking glass into their mind.

i’m only after honesty. perhaps we should segue into a new thread and give steph her thread back.

I have no problem admitting that some people aren’t as smart as others. I do have a problem when criticism of an opponent’s intelligence is used as a means to silence debate, or when it’s used to demean ‘the other.’

This is part of Steph’s thread, by the way. I don’t see it as a hijack, unless your reply to her OP is seen as the ultimate in hijacking. You used her well-intentioned OP as an excuse to be nasty to your opponents.

 

[thechrismyster]

I agree with ya’ Chris. I can’t tell you how many eye rolls I’ve wasted on this forum on threads disputing the same trivial thing for the 14th time… I wonder sometimes how it is possible to be so caught up in such ridiculous things, unless one does it deliberately.

http://home.roadrunner.com/~mgol1/applause-kaneclap.gif

 

[TMC]

Let’s move back toward the point of this thread.

Is the Church drowning in rules?? I think maybe.

I find that there are two approaches to rules. Some people love having detailed explicit rules for every little thing. It is comforting to them. They feel that at the end of the day they can check off their long list of rules and be happy that they have all the checks in line. They believe this will lead to salvation.

Some people want no rules at all. The are stifled by rules, not comforted. They want to take broad guiding principles and just sort of wing it from there.

Both approaches are wrong. First, you can’t checklist God. And, although I am sure I will be flamed for saying so, I don’t think God cares about probably 90% of the “rules”. One poster on this forum recently asked which thumb should rest on top when folding his hands! As if God cares how you fold your hands. The obsession some have over when to stand or kneel in Mass, what kind of songs to sing, what kind of clothes the priest wears… Who Cares. The OP asked about vacuuming on Sunday. I remember that part of Matthew 25 – all those poor souls on the left that vacuumed on the wrong day and got damned for it, so sad.

On the other hand, there are important rules. Rules that help guide us to live a Christian life, treat life with the respect it is due, love one another as Christ commanded. The free spirits don’t want any rules, they just want to feel their way through life. This doesn’t really work either. The rule hating free spirits need to understand that the hard experiences of 2000 years have taught that some rules really are important. None of them involve vacuums, but they do cover important things like protecting all life from conception to natural death.

Which brings me back to the OP’s question. I think we might have too many rules, and that the proliferation of rules that don’t really matter can dilute the importance of the ones that do. Oh, and it leads to unneccesary strife between the rule loving checklisters and the rule hating free spirits.

 

[Island_Oak]

Great thread topic!

Dr. Colleen on Catholic Radio has a great saying she usually applies to rebellious teens…but it also works for rebellious Catholics of any age…“Rules without Relationship = Rebellion.” It is all too obvious that the Church needs to provide some moral guidance on fundamental issues. However, legalism rum amok is reminiscent of the book of Leviticus and part of our ancient history, not a wise or Christ-centered approach for those who have the benefit of knowing Christ’s compassion from the “good news” or Gospels.

I sometimes get down about the nit-picking I read on these forums or see in our own parish. However, spending time with the Gospels makes it clear that Jesus himself operated in the “real” world of imperfect sinners and those who stumbled and fell short again and again. At those times, I’m reminded that the important thing is to keep getting up, dusting yourself off and finding your way back to walk the path with Him.

 

[Brendan]

Great thread topic!

Dr. Colleen on Catholic Radio has a great saying she usually applies to rebellious teens…but it also works for rebellious Catholics of any age…“Rules without Relationship = Rebellion.” It is all too obvious that the Church needs to provide some moral guidance on fundamental issues. However, legalism rum amok is reminiscent of the book of Leviticus and part of our ancient history, not a wise or Christ-centered approach for those who have the benefit of knowing Christ’s compassion from the “good news” or Gospels.

The whole point is that these are not OUR personal rules, but the rules of the Church. The Church DOES have a relationship with Christ, in fact, Christ is Her Bridegroom.

We have also seen, from my earlier post, that an Ecumenical Council has declared that we are to obey all rules set forth by the Church, as they are HOW we get closer to Christ.

Christ truely IS compassionate to those who trust in His Ways. But many do not.

It says very little about one’s personal relationship with Christ when, with deliberation, one flaunts or ignores the rules of His Church.

This is different from one not knowing the rules, which neither Christ or anyone here, will fault a person.

But when one is conscience of rules set forth by Christ’s Bride, the Church, and deliberately chooses to act against them, will that be a positive thing in Christ’s eyes?

Christ Himself told his Apostles to follow the rules set forth by the Sanhedrin, for they sit in the seat of Moses.

Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach

Mt 23:1-3

The Pope now sits in the Chair of Moses, and unlike the Pharisess, Benedict DOES practice what he preaches, so we may follow both what he says AND what he does .

There are far too many of those in the Church today that will choose not to follow Christ, not to obey His Command to be obedient to the Chair of Moses.

It’s hardly ‘nit picking’ to do what Christ Himself tells us to do. Or what the Holy Spirit told us to do at Vatican I.

 

[MooCowSteph]

Rules are stupid, it is all about your relationship.

Why go to Church?, that is just a rule.
Why can’t I cheat on my wife? that is just a meaningless rule that keeps me from the freedom of just moving how the spirit moves me.
Why can’t I just go to the tabernacle, grab a few hosts and take them home for me and my buddies? Why do I have to kneel? God is tough enough to handle me standing up whenever I want to. It doesn’t hurt God if I step on the Blessed Sacrament, so what?
Rules keep me from expressing myself how I want to. It impedes my freedom to dance in church, dress how I want, worship how I want… \example

Count how many times I used the word, I or me and you will see how the focus of person determines their point of view.
The focus on self makes for a desire for things to allow personal freedom.
The focus on submission to God changes that desire to an obedience of God’s will.

The difference is choosing between what is God’s will over man’s will, too often these days we have replaced a seeking of obedience for a desire for personal freedom.

God Bless
Scylla

Did I even mention ANYTHING as serious as adultry or abuse of the hosts? Did you even READ my original post? I said I understood may of the rules, such as the ones based on the ten commandments.

I suppose I just no longer see how holding my hands in orans (sp?) posture, holding hands, or folding my hands during the Lord’s prayer is ignoring God’s will. Can you please explain that to me? Or how about what I view as excessive liturgical rules. Can you explain WHY it’s a big deal if the priest leaves the sanctuary during the homily, something I would have been frustrated by in the past until I realized it DIDN’T MATTER in the grand scheme of things. Does he reach the congregation with hi words? Does he change hearts? Doesn’t that matter more than where he’s standing? I’ve even seen debates on here about whether or not flowers such as Easter lilies or mums are allowed around the alter. Come one…does that really matter? Don’t have have much more important things to discuss, such as the abuse of the 10 commandments?

 

[MooCowSteph]

Hello,

You’re not far off. The real question we must ask ourselves before any action is: “does God allow this?”. Or to rephrase in a more positive manner: “is this action in conformity with the will of God?”.

See, now THAT makes sense. And I think the church is helpful in helping us determine that. Too many Catholics and people in genereal do not consider the will of God when making decisions in their lives. But I think the mindset has gone too far when people are worried about whether it’s ok to attend a protestant wedding (why would God want us to miss a friend’s or family member’s wedding because they are not Catholic?) or get a little tattoo remembering a lost child, for example. I fail to see how these issues can go against the will of God. Am I making any sense here? Maybe I’m rambling