Drowning is rules?

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You are not rambling, Steph; I see exactly what you’re saying. I continue to read the posts here and continue to Amen your thoughts.

Some one quoted Matthew 24:1 earlier in the thread. Here’s some more verses from Matthew 24, it’s fairly scathing
[sup]4[/sup] They bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with their finger. [sup]11[/sup] He who is greatest among you shall be your servant; [sup]12[/sup] whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted. [sup]13[/sup] "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither enter yourselves, nor allow those who would enter to go in. [sup]23[/sup] "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law, justice and mercy and faith; these you ought to have done, without neglecting the others. [sup]24[/sup] You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel! [sup]25[/sup] "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you cleanse the outside of the cup and of the plate, but inside they are full of extortion and rapacity. [sup]26[/sup] You blind Pharisee! first cleanse the inside of the cup and of the plate, that the outside also may be clean.
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MooCowSteph said:
See, now THAT makes sense. And I think the church is helpful in helping us determine that. Too many Catholics and people in genereal do not consider the will of God when making decisions in their lives. But I think the mindset has gone too far when people are worried about whether it’s ok to attend a protestant wedding (why would God want us to miss a friend’s or family member’s wedding because they are not Catholic?) or get a little tattoo remembering a lost child, for example. I fail to see how these issues can go against the will of God. Am I making any sense here? Maybe I’m rambling 😊
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MooCowSteph said:
See, now THAT makes sense. And I think the church is helpful in helping us determine that. Too many Catholics and people in genereal do not consider the will of God when making decisions in their lives. But I think the mindset has gone too far when people are worried about whether it’s ok to attend a protestant wedding (why would God want us to miss a friend’s or family member’s wedding because they are not Catholic?) or get a little tattoo remembering a lost child, for example. I fail to see how these issues can go against the will of God. Am I making any sense here? Maybe I’m rambling 😊
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Amen! and you are not rambling 🙂
 
TMC said:
Some people love having detailed explicit rules for every little thing. It is comforting to them. They feel that at the end of the day they can check off their long list of rules and be happy that they have all the checks in line. They believe this will lead to salvation.
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I think I might have a bit of this. Part of the reason is that I know from experience that I don’t always have the moral sense to know what’s right or wrong without the guidance of the church. Someone might say I’m stupid, but I’m intelligent in other ways. But when it comes to ethics I have a very analytical mind that can rationalize myself way off the narrow path.
 
**Reasons for Liturgical Norms

**Someone may ask why there should be liturgical norms at all. Would creativity, spontaneity, the freedom of the children of God and ordinary good sense not be enough? Why should the worship of God be regimented by rubrics and regulations? Is it not enough just to teach people the beauty and the exalted nature of the liturgy?

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MooCowSteph said:
I suppose I just no longer see how holding my hands in orans (sp?) posture, holding hands, or folding my hands during the Lord’s prayer is ignoring God’s will. Can you please explain that to me? Or how about what I view as excessive liturgical rules. Can you explain WHY it’s a big deal if the priest leaves the sanctuary during the homily, something I would have been frustrated by in the past until I realized it DIDN’T MATTER in the grand scheme of things. Does he reach the congregation with hi words? Does he change hearts? Doesn’t that matter more than where he’s standing? I’ve even seen debates on here about whether or not flowers such as Easter lilies or mums are allowed around the alter. Come one…does that really matter? Don’t have have much more important things to discuss, such as the abuse of the 10 commandments?
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The short answer to the question is Luke 16:10 - “He that is faithful in that which is least, is faithful also in that which is greater: and he that is unjust in that which is little, is unjust also in that which is greater.” Without even knowing the reason yet for the rules, we know that breaking them creates a problem of infidelity, and we have on Christ’s own words that if someone is unfaithful in small matters we can expect him to be unfaithful in large matters.

Without discussing any particular rule and its abuse, though, I think the big issue here is that you’ve come to a point where you’ve simply decided none of the rules above matter - Brendan actually did explain how disobeying them was “ignoring God’s will” but you seem to have ignored this because you think it just can matter. The bottom line is that any time you research a rule you realize the Church does have reasons. You can disagree as to whether or not you think the reasons are sufficient to warrant the rule, but the Church has typically thought long and hard before imposing some sort of discipline. You realized “it didn’t matter” but the Church, who speaks for Christ, has told us it does. Which of those two positions should I be more inclined to believe?
anamchara said:
Painting with so broad a brush rarely stays within the lines. I don’t think you’ve ever witnessed just how much traditionalists debate the wisdom of certain rules.
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buffalo said:
Reasons for Liturgical Norms

Someone may ask why there should be liturgical norms at all. Would creativity, spontaneity, the freedom of the children of God and ordinary good sense not be enough? Why should the worship of God be regimented by rubrics and regulations? Is it not enough just to teach people the beauty and the exalted nature of the liturgy?

more…
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That is quoted from Cardinal Arinze on the the norms of liturgy. Why do you bring that up? I’m curious.
 
Andreas_Hofer said:
Painting with so broad a brush rarely stays within the lines. I don’t think you’ve ever witnessed just how much traditionalists debate the wisdom of certain rules.
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It might be a big brush but I think I’ve logged enough hours with traditionalists in forums like this to have some truth to my statement. What I’ve witnessed is dogma being shoved down throats without charity. Only a very few show any sort of wisdom behind their words. 😉

Our Church is sadly and seriously divided right now and that’s the biggest problem we run across in these forums.
 
I think its important to remember that the OP was about whether there were too many rules, not whether we should stop following rules. I seems to me that there are a lot of rules. Cardinal Arinze also said:
Liturgical celebrations are not primarily the observance of norms but rather the celebration of the mysteries of Christ by the Church and in the Church, with faith and love and with respect for tradition. The observance of norms is a consequence and fruit of faith and respect. It is not the final object of worship. It is a quality of it.
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If a parishoner is worried about which way his thumbs should lie as he approaches the altar, or whether the person next to him is using an “appropriate” greeting during the sign of peace, how focused are they on the mysteries of Christ?

I also see people complaining about ‘violations’ that I don’t think are against any rule - but then I confess to not knowing all the rules. Is there really a correct way to hold your hands in teh communion line??
 
Obedience is one of the greatest acts of love we can pay to Jesus. Obedience to our lawful pastors, especially the bishops and the Pope is especially pleasing to Him.

Those who want to do what’s right, are concerned about doing what is most pleasing to Jesus. It’s an act of love. Likewise, those who spurn holy obedience are wounding their own souls and so they should be encouraged to embrace it instead 🙂
 
b_justb said:
You are not rambling, Steph; I see exactly what you’re saying. I continue to read the posts here and continue to Amen your thoughts.

Some one quoted Matthew 24:1 earlier in the thread. Here’s some more verses from Matthew 24, it’s fairly scathing
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I was the one who quoted Matthew 23, was that the verse you were refering to.

Matthew 24 is a beautiful chapter, with much to tell. For example, the Church makes it her primary goal to cleanse the inside first, through Baptism and Reconcilliation. So she clearly follows Christ’s teachings here.

The next command is to cleanse the ‘outside’, that would be the Sacraments of Life, the Church cleanses the family via Marriage, She even cleanses the sick via Annoiting, so we have All of Christ’s commands followed, in just the order Christ commanded them (and provided for them).And she does so with doctrine and rules that are given with the Authority of Christ Himself.

On the other hand, there still exist Pharisees in this world, who try and ‘clean’ the externals of the Liturgy by changing texts, who try and ‘clean’ the community by gathering around the altar, who try and ‘clean’ the sinful practices of their congregations by simply telling them it all right to practice homosexuality or whatever personal sin the congregation is ‘called’ to.

What they forget is to clean the insides of their heart, charred with disobedience and derision. These Christ condemns in very strong terms. We need to pray for these people and help them to accept the call of Jesus to full obediecnce to His Church.

It’s even worse when such people are in positions of authority. They call for obedience amonst their charges, but practice none themselves. Christ had a strong word for them, He called them ‘hypocrites’.

b-j-b, thanks for reminding us how strong Christ’s words are against those who whuld flaunt the teachings and rules of governance of His Church and place their own, human rules above those of the just governance of the Bride of Christ.
 
Brendan said:
On the other hand, there still exist Pharisees in this world, who try and ‘clean’ the externals of the Liturgy by changing texts, who try and ‘clean’ the community by gathering around the altar, who try and ‘clean’ the sinful practices of their congregations by simply telling them it all right to practice homosexuality or whatever personal sin the congregation is ‘called’ to.
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And here is the problem. A great deal of assumptions on what others are believing and what motives they have. And then to try and call them Pharisees? Come on Brendan ridiculous leap. :rolleyes:
 
buffalo said:
Uh No! He is orthodox.

One does not want to be either conservative or liberal in the church.
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LOL! Oh if I had a dime for every time I’ve read this statement. 😃 Reality is we do have conservative or liberal. He is considered conservative. Bad or good. It’s what it is.
 
anamchara said:
LOL! Oh if I had a dime for every time I’ve read this statement. 😃 Reality is we do have conservative or liberal. He is considered conservative. Bad or good. It’s what it is.
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Sure we do. What’s the point?

Is he orthodox or not?
 
anamchara said:
And here is the problem. A great deal of assumptions on what others are believing and what motives they have. And then to try and call them Pharisees? Come on Brendan ridiculous leap. :rolleyes:
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No, I only referred to those who attempt such action with an understanding of what the Vatican has mandated on the subject.

I said nothing at all about what motivates them to disobedience, or what personal beliefs that they hold, only that they are disobedient.

If one has knowledge of what the Authority had ruled on a matter, and one, with deliberation, chooses to act against the Authority, that by definition, is disobedience.

Let’s take a look at Websters on the subject
Main Entry: dis·obe·di·ence
Pronunciation: \ˌdis-ə-ˈbē-dē-ən(t)s, -ō-ˈbē-\
Function: noun
Date: 15th century
: refusal or neglect to obey
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Exactly where does ‘motives’ or ‘beliefs’ enter into the defintion?

Both of those are CAUSES of disobedience, not the act itself.
 
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