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Sword_Brethren
Guest
How about Spoons or maybe a Kazoo? There is no Liturgical Tradition of drums at the Holy Liturgy.
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Sword_Brethren
Guest
"The music of worship is essentially vocal and its decadence was greatly hastened by the introduction of orchestral instruments…Pianos, drums, cymbals, etc., and full bands are forbidden in church.
A Catholic Dictionary
Nihil Obstat
(name removed by moderator)rimatur
1961
p.336
A Catholic Dictionary
Nihil Obstat
(name removed by moderator)rimatur
1961
p.336
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Sword_Brethren
Guest
“the proper music of the Church is only vocal… the music is really only a part of the liturgy and its humble handmaid.”
St. Pius the X the Great
“We declare that accompanied singing is in no way considered by the Church to be a more perfect form of music or one more suitable for sacred purposes: indeed, it is fitting that the voice itself, rather than instruments, should sound in sacred buildings.”
Pope Pius XI the Great
Divini Cultus 1929
A Catholic Dictionary
Nihil Obstat
(name removed by moderator)rimatur
1961
p.336
St. Pius the X the Great
“We declare that accompanied singing is in no way considered by the Church to be a more perfect form of music or one more suitable for sacred purposes: indeed, it is fitting that the voice itself, rather than instruments, should sound in sacred buildings.”
Pope Pius XI the Great
Divini Cultus 1929
A Catholic Dictionary
Nihil Obstat
(name removed by moderator)rimatur
1961
p.336
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ForeverGrace
Guest
You’ll have to excuse me. I was assured that Christians were welcome here at Catholic Answers. I guess I was misinformed. It’s not my intention to offend. This is a site called Catholic*** Answers***. I asked a question. My son is a catholic and his parish uses a wonderful orchestra at 2 out of 3 services every Sunday. I may not be up to your standards as a simple Christian, but the David of the Psalms was called a man after God’s own heart. He encouraged the use of instruments in praise to God.
If your answer is simply because committed Catholics don’t worship that way, I’d have to point out that my son’s parish does. If there is some other reason, I’d sincerely like to know what the answer is. I have no impact on what your churches do. I just wanted an answer and thought this would be a place where people would speak to me in charity.
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Sword_Brethren
Guest
But, I don’t think that is how the Jews worshiped in the Holy Temple.
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ForeverGrace
Guest
I think that a fair statement. But Jews didn’t allow men and women to worship together either and I don’t think that Catholicism has embraced that practice.
I’m seriously not being critical, I’m just trying to understand the reasons behind some of what I’m reading here. One person says that drums (and othe instruments) are allowed and others say they are not. Both statements seem to be backed up by someone in past church authority.
I also understand that many people have a problem with things being introduced that they haven’t grown up with. I can accept that as a fundamental criticism. I might add that Catholics are not alone in this. Protestant churches also argue about style of worship. There are extremes everywhere.
I certainly respect everyone’s point of view. I only came here to ask questions not to be subjected to disdain because I’m not Catholic. If that’s the case, maybe Catholic Answers should reconsider allowing people outside the faith to post. I didn’t come in here and start talking trash about your faith. Apparently, by the wide diversity of views on this, other people also wanted to know why some Catholics feel the way they do. I’m not going to change anyone’s mind and it’s not my intention to do so.
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Canto
Guest
The Jews chanted the Psalms and from what I gather it was doen a capella
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Dum_Spiro_Spero
Guest
Point taken…but as I said, I am directing my comments at Catholics and how those types of instruments have no place at a Catholic Mass…I am not trying to be rude or uncharitable to you…you are simply not the subject of my inquiry.
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CMatt25
Guest
:nope: Nope from my time here it seems you’re only truly welcome if you’re a committed Catholic who does not worship as the committed Catholics do in your son’s parish. But it could be worse. Just a few posts back I was told I am lost and can not comprehend. Which is better than some other things I’ve been told around CAF. Like I’m facing hell, could not be saved.
God bless you and peace.
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CMatt25
Guest
Do your Shabbat services begin Fri night at sundown? Shalom.
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Melchior_1
Guest
Ah hem.
“In the “Regolamento” of 1884, flutes, trombones, and kettle-drums are permitted on account of the improved manner in which they are now used as compared with former times”.
To me, this is critical. This shows that the Catholic acknowledges the maturation of music and chooses to embrace it. If you look at the history of kettle-drums and other instruments within the Church, you will actually see a clear and logical progression through out the years as the Church begins to acknowledge these instruments and their improved manner.
Another quote; As to the use of instruments, other than the organ, we should remember that the special permission of the ordinary is necessary, and that their nature must always be in keeping with the occasion and the place.
This is not the first time we see this. Both Pius IX and Pius X mentioned the permission of the local Ordinary could allow for the use of other instruments.
Also; Regarding modern music, the “Motu proprio” says: "The Church has always recognized and honoured progress in the arts, admitting to the service of religion everything good and beautiful discovered by genius in the course of ages
This brings to mind what I mentioned above; the Church acknowledging the maturation and development of music. The Church does not outright reject scientific discoveries or new application of mathematics (of which one can say Music is a form of mathematics, ironically), so to the Church (after study) does not outright condemn these either.
The journey of kettle-drums within the Church I find very fascinating. So to the journey of strong instruments, which I may add the guitar is a member of. To my knowledge the the Church has not repealed the use of kettle-drums within the Mass. Has voice only (male voices, not female) been deemed the preference? Perhaps. But this has not prohibited the use of instruments.
I’ll finish by saying that if some of y’all acted this way towards ForeverGrace in-person…you have to wonder what his perception of Catholics would be.
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dnu
Guest
Drums at Mass? I would walk out of that Parish and never return.
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Canto
Guest
In your ordinary parish, save a Cathedral doing a big Mozart Mass, how often were kettlte drums used?
“With regard to compositions of liturgical music, I make my own the “general rule” that St. Pius X formulated in these words: ‘The more closely a composition for church approaches in its movement, inspiration and savor the Gregorian melodic form, the more sacred and liturgical it becomes; and the more out of harmony it is with that supreme model, the less worthy it is of the temple’” - John Paul II
Did the kettle drum ever lead the singing like the organ?
At Mass (GIRM, Musicam Sacram) first preference is give to the singing of the dialogue at Mass - no drums needed.
Second comes things like the Kyrie and Lamb of God - no drums needed.
Lastly, lastly comes the entrance, offetorey and Communion chants which have traditionally been chanted either a capella or with organ accompaniment
Sacrosanctum Concilium (Vat II)
- In the Latin Church the pipe organ is to be held in high esteem, for it is the traditional musical instrument which adds a wonderful splendor to the Church’s ceremonies and powerfully lifts up man’s mind to God and to higher things.
But other instruments also may be admitted for use in divine worship, with the knowledge and consent of the competent territorial authority, as laid down in Art. 22, 52, 37, and 40. This may be done, however, only on condition that the instruments are suitable, or can be made suitable, for sacred use, accord with the dignity of the temple, and truly contribute to the edification of the faithful.
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Melchior_1
Guest
How often are kettle-drums used? It depends on your perception of kettle-drums and percussion as a whole. If you enable pitch adjusting on the kettle-drums I would take up the argument that one could place them in the same family as conga drums, bongo drums, and the djemba. There are several Churches (loyal, orthodox, Traditional Churches) who use these instruments. At the very least you can obtain similar pitches and playing methodology.
Yes, I used the word Traditional. Traditional in the “one of the two Rules of Faith” sense. The denizens of this sub-board are not the sole heirs of Sacred Tradition, **The use of contemporary hymns and contemporary instruments does not exclude one from being orthodox or Traditional. ** I wish more people would see that.
You mentioned a “Mozart Mass”. I’m uneasy about a “Mozart Mass” regardless of the instruments used, simply due to his being a Mason and all of that. Further, the fact it is identified with the composer so readily to me seems similar to complaints of “musicians playing themselves above the Mass”, a common (yet grossly inaccurate) complaint levied by those who protest against “contemporary hymns”. Also, the fact that several people would rather have someone who was a practicing Mason’s works and not, say, Matt Maher I always find interesting.
Now, I pointed towards kettle-drums for two reasons;
This is JPII’s own personal opinion, not a From the Throne statement. In this case people are entitled to a different opinion than him. It may be his General Rule, but it might not be others. Somewhat similar reasoning that some “Traditional Catholics” use to refrain from saying the Luminous Mysteries of the Rosary.
Finally, I’ve noticed people are fond of the Cut & Paste here. Selective Cut & Pasting, I may add. The prohibition on instruments has been lifted and not been put back into place. Rome has stated a preference for a certain kind of music, and they are promoting that. However they have not banned the use of instruments. Instead, for the last couple of centuries, they have time and again said that **“with the knowledge and consent of the competent territorial authority” ** that other instruments are permitted.
Unless you’re calling several Cardinals and Bishops incompetent. If that’s the case…well, have fun with that.
“Drums Organs at Mass? I would walk out of that Parish and never return” is what some people may have said back in the day. And certainly is something I would say if I entered a church that had people with some of these attitudes.
Yes, I used the word Traditional. Traditional in the “one of the two Rules of Faith” sense. The denizens of this sub-board are not the sole heirs of Sacred Tradition, **The use of contemporary hymns and contemporary instruments does not exclude one from being orthodox or Traditional. ** I wish more people would see that.
You mentioned a “Mozart Mass”. I’m uneasy about a “Mozart Mass” regardless of the instruments used, simply due to his being a Mason and all of that. Further, the fact it is identified with the composer so readily to me seems similar to complaints of “musicians playing themselves above the Mass”, a common (yet grossly inaccurate) complaint levied by those who protest against “contemporary hymns”. Also, the fact that several people would rather have someone who was a practicing Mason’s works and not, say, Matt Maher I always find interesting.
Now, I pointed towards kettle-drums for two reasons;
- They are an approved liturgical instrument. After the prohibition on them (and other instruments) was lifted they were not banned again. Further, as I mentioned, it does point towards the Church’s stance on music can/does change over the course of 2000 years.
- They are drums. People have a huge issue with drums in Church yet kettle-drums are permitted. Blanket statements rarely get you anywhere, and this is one more example.
This is JPII’s own personal opinion, not a From the Throne statement. In this case people are entitled to a different opinion than him. It may be his General Rule, but it might not be others. Somewhat similar reasoning that some “Traditional Catholics” use to refrain from saying the Luminous Mysteries of the Rosary.
Finally, I’ve noticed people are fond of the Cut & Paste here. Selective Cut & Pasting, I may add. The prohibition on instruments has been lifted and not been put back into place. Rome has stated a preference for a certain kind of music, and they are promoting that. However they have not banned the use of instruments. Instead, for the last couple of centuries, they have time and again said that **“with the knowledge and consent of the competent territorial authority” ** that other instruments are permitted.
Unless you’re calling several Cardinals and Bishops incompetent. If that’s the case…well, have fun with that.
“
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CMatt25
Guest
That’s fine. Just don’t expect everyone to follow you. I’ve never walked out but I’ve also never been back to a parish where the priest not long ago said his answer to the poor is for them to just get a job. I’d also never return to a parish if it was ever Latin only again. To each his own. You’ll probably have an easier time finding a parish however nowadays without drums than I have in finding one that doesn’t speak of the poor in such a manner and where the social Gospel is preached. Peace.
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Canto
Guest
For 2000 years the main instrument at most masses has been the voice and later maybe organ. Other instruments have been given the greenlight but their frequence and style was not like that of the organ.
Doesn’t make one unorthodox but Gregorian chant is the traditional music of the Church with sacred polypony. Pop/rock music and contemporary folk is not part of the musical tradition of the Church.
From what I’ve read he was not a Mason and that such an allegation is false - and how could a Mason compose Ave Verum Corpus! What about parishes singing the heretical Mary did you know at Advent/Christmastide instead of the simple Marian Antiphon Alma Redemptoris Mater or some of the wishy washy Communion hymns or all those hymns centered around “I” and “us” instead of “Him.”
Some of the contemprary hymns are too syncopated with diffuclt rhythms and so my experience (just mine) is that the people in the pews generally don’t sing along on this account and the guitar playing is usually very strummed like in popular music.
Yet hown often are/were they used and under what context and in what manner?
Why do we need drums at Mass? They are not needed to sing the Mass.
And surley his opinion has some sway and the fact that he quotes a prior Pope. Or the type of music and the instruments used at Papal liturgies. Or how about the fact that Pope after Pope has begged and pleaded for us to start singing the Mass.
Yet hown often have these other instruments been used and under what context and in what manner? Prior to Vat II (I wasn’t around) but if you walked into a parish would you have piano and guitar and drums etc instead of organ. Instead of Chant, polyphony and simple on the beat hymns, would you have pop (like Cole Porter or Lieber/Stoller) and contemporary folk music (like the Weavers) at the Sacrifice.
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AdamC
Guest
Doesn’t the church teach that we are to use our talents to glorify God? Why should a drummer be unwelcome in such a pursuit?
Maybe this person isn’t very good, or maybe he/she is nervous about playing in public. Besides, how else do people get better at something if they don’t practice?
Instead of complaining, try praying for the drummer and asking God to help him/her to feel comfortable playing in front of a group, and to help him/her gain a better sense of rhythm.
Drums are just as good of instrument as any, and they can be done quite tastefully. This person obviously wants to get involved with his/her parish and serve God. Stop complaining.
Maybe this person isn’t very good, or maybe he/she is nervous about playing in public. Besides, how else do people get better at something if they don’t practice?
Instead of complaining, try praying for the drummer and asking God to help him/her to feel comfortable playing in front of a group, and to help him/her gain a better sense of rhythm.
Drums are just as good of instrument as any, and they can be done quite tastefully. This person obviously wants to get involved with his/her parish and serve God. Stop complaining.
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Canto
Guest
Drums at Mass
Question from Kathy on 2/7/2006:
Are drums permitted at mass??? We have a set that are sometimes used during a teen mass? Are there anyguidlines regarding this?? Thanks for the great work you do for the church!
Answer by Colin B. Donovan, STL on 4/4/2006:
In some cultures drums have a sacred significance (e.g. Native Americans). In European derived culture (most US parishes), drums are a secular instrument and evoke secular impressiosn in us, and therefore do not meet the norms of inculturation, and should not be used.
ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.asp?Pgnu=1&Pg=Forum8&recnu=7&number=460879
Question from Kathy on 2/7/2006:
Are drums permitted at mass??? We have a set that are sometimes used during a teen mass? Are there anyguidlines regarding this?? Thanks for the great work you do for the church!
Answer by Colin B. Donovan, STL on 4/4/2006:
In some cultures drums have a sacred significance (e.g. Native Americans). In European derived culture (most US parishes), drums are a secular instrument and evoke secular impressiosn in us, and therefore do not meet the norms of inculturation, and should not be used.
ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.asp?Pgnu=1&Pg=Forum8&recnu=7&number=460879
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Melchior_1
Guest
The allegation is not an allegation, because it is the truth. There’s a whole article about Mozart on Wikipedia (complete with foot notes for references); en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozart_and_Freemasonry. There was a recent bio-film my wife and I watched on TV with a large chunk of it detailing him being a Mason. He joined them in the year 1784 as an apprentice. Meanwhile, he composed Ave Verum Corpus for his friend Anton Stoll, and the autograph is dated 17 June 1791 (this well after he was no longer a mere “apprentice”). The Requiem Mass in D minor was written in the last year of his life, while he was still Mason.
Mozart was a Mason for seven years. That’s 1/5th of his life. Thus far there are two major pieces of his loved by “traditional” Catholics which were written by him during his Masonic years. To me, this undermines the credibility somewhat; you would rather have the music of an unbeliever at your “traditional” Mass. And not just ANY unbeliever, but a Mason.
This of course does not count Bach or Handel. In fact, looking through the “Leaders Show us Your Song List” I see several hymns written by protestants selected by “traditional” Catholics. The same people who rally against Vatican II, some of whom cry out about “the Protestant’s Supper Table”,yet these same people freely embrace music at Mass written by those who do not believe in what the Church teaches, or even further prefer a Mass with music from a Mason. You would think people would stick with Catholic Composers.
But of course, some of these people also don’t have a problem with protestants or atheists playing the Organ at mass so long as those “contemporary” hymns and instruments stay out of the way. Funny, that.
It all strikes me as a tad bit hypocritical, but that’s just me.
Mozart was a Mason for seven years. That’s 1/5th of his life. Thus far there are two major pieces of his loved by “traditional” Catholics which were written by him during his Masonic years. To me, this undermines the credibility somewhat; you would rather have the music of an unbeliever at your “traditional” Mass. And not just ANY unbeliever, but a Mason.
This of course does not count Bach or Handel. In fact, looking through the “Leaders Show us Your Song List” I see several hymns written by protestants selected by “traditional” Catholics. The same people who rally against Vatican II, some of whom cry out about “the Protestant’s Supper Table”,yet these same people freely embrace music at Mass written by those who do not believe in what the Church teaches, or even further prefer a Mass with music from a Mason. You would think people would stick with Catholic Composers.
But of course, some of these people also don’t have a problem with protestants or atheists playing the Organ at mass so long as those “contemporary” hymns and instruments stay out of the way. Funny, that.
It all strikes me as a tad bit hypocritical, but that’s just me.
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Melchior_1
Guest
These threads usually go no where quickly, and I’ve noticed a rash of bannings/suspensions recently so I’m checking out before things get out of hand. Before I do so;
He uses no sources. Not to mention he refrains from any comments that certain percussion instruments ARE permitted, nor does he mention anything about the local ordinary having the ability to approve instruments. And the whole “secular impressions”…that’s a wash considering that ALL instruments were used in secular society. Voices and Organs included.
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