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MaryT777
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I agree.
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billcu1
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I’m certainly glad this doesn’t effect me. Since I’ve never been married. But I can understand confusion among those that would be effected. But I’ve akso read that if you go through the normal tribunal process you should be ok. I think that is what a Catholic agrees to when they enter the Church. Unless this is about something else.
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PassingSoul
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My source is “human nature” on being demoted to a lower position when you think you are right and the other person is wrong. Again this is only my opinion on the matter. In business when a person gets demoted it’s common for him to start looking for another job or remain and being critical of the company. Unlike Business, the church demands obeisance.
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Tantum_ergo
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Obedience, I think you mean (spell checker is not reliable).
Thank you for noting that your post then start to finish was based on your personal opinion and that you simply assumed that, based on your understanding of ‘human nature’, that the four men you are criticizing were reacting on ‘demotions’ (putative) solely.
None of the four cardinals has been disobedient in the slightest.
Since said ‘demotions’ are only your speculation, and since the actions of the four are not wrong in any way, your opinion that their expression was based on retaliation and disobedience due to disgruntled feelings re same becomes moot.
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grateful_child
Guest
billcu1, sharing these other chronological links in case you are interested. They provide good, solid background on what the Church Teachings are. The World Over link (4) of the interview with Cardinal Muhller is especially encouraging. The latest commentary is the link which fin kindly provided:
- EWTN’s “World Over”, 02/16/2017, on Amoris Laetitia Row, with Fr.Gerald Murray, Robert Royal, hosted by Raymond Arroyo:
- On Amoris Laetitia from NCRegister.com, April, 2017:
A TALE OF TWO INTERPRETATIONS OF AMORIS LAETITIA:
- NCRegister.com, by Edward Pentin, April 24, 2017, on Amoris Laetitia:
SCHOLARS HIGHLIGHT AMORIS LAETITIA FLAWS AND CRISIS IN THE CHURCH:
- EWTN World Over 05-25-2017, on Amoris Laetitia: Cardinal Gerhard Muhller, Prefect of the Congregation of the Faith.
- EWTN World Over 06-01-2017 Fr. Gerald Murray and Robert Royal with Raymond Arroyo – Latest on Amoris Laetitia, etc.
- More on Amoris Laetitia, from ncregister.com, by Edward Pentin, 06/17/ 2017: Doctrinal Anarchy:
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Debbie_Kono
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Besides the confusion in Amoris Laetitia there are things like this:
lifesitenews.com/news/pope-francis-most-marriages-are-null-some-cohabitations-are-real-marriage?utm_content=bufferae0ab&utm_medium=social&utm_source=+lifesitenews%2Bfacebook&utm_campaign=buffer
lifesitenews.com/news/pope-francis-most-marriages-are-null-some-cohabitations-are-real-marriage?utm_content=bufferae0ab&utm_medium=social&utm_source=+lifesitenews%2Bfacebook&utm_campaign=buffer
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Blue_Horizon
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“Confusion” is pretty much in the mind of the beholder.
It is not intrinsically evil and it is often required of even the saints if they are to grow in holiness.
While I am confused by many things I have never had any serious problems dealing with anything Pope Francis has said.
Though I do note that it is human nature for some who have animosity towards someone in authority over them often to use “confusion” as a sort of seemingly polite public passive aggressive opposition. The Scribes and Pharisees with their pious concerns and “have you stopped beating your wife yet” type questions are portrayed in the Gospels as such.
I believe it is entirely and traditionally acceptable decorum for a Pope to decline to answer dubia and indeed that is his answer. All Popes in recent times have done the same - though the questioners rarelyfelt the need to speak to the gallery when declined.
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Tim_D
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Par for the course for Pope Francis. He speaks more like an activist pastor than the head of the Catholic Church.
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Tim_D
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Can we really expect to find the grace apparent in a sacramental marriage in a “relationship” between two who live together and engage in sexual intimacy without the rigid legality or necessity of actually exchanging vows? Does that apply to homosexual couples, too? So, is sex outside of marriage no longer considered sinful? My mind would be confused if it wasn’t for the fact that the Church has spoken distinctly and specifically about the subject in the past. Pope Francis is the one sowing confusion.
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Blue_Horizon
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This approach is foolish.
Pope Francis is to be assumed in union with past Popes as is I indicated by all advising Cardinals bar 4.
You are essentially saying that you, a theologically and pastorally untrained and uneducated layman, are pitting your understanding of Catholicism against someone vastly ahead of you on both counts who actually possesses a charism you do not to boot.
I find the comparision both absurd and indicative of hubris.
Yes there is confusion in your mind and in that of four Cardinals. So what?
You are not the rocket scientist, why argue maths with one who is?
That is life, lets all learn to humbly live with it.
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Tim_D
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Does one really need to be a rocket scientist to know that the Church has taught and continuously teaches through that pesky little catechism that sexual relations outside of marriage or between people who are not free to marry is intrinsically sinful? The fact that 4 prominent cardinals and brother bishops of the pope have asked for clarification on the issue makes me think that my position is not so absurd. What is most distressing is that the pope, the head of the Church and the vicar of Christ refuses to clarify the situation at the humble request of his brother bishops and through that refusal has sowed seeds of doubt and confusion among the faithful.
BTW, because “the pope said so” has never been a very convincing argument.
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Blue_Horizon
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Its distressing and confusing for you, not for most of us, and not for the majority of Cardinals and bishops.
As you are not a rocket scientist I suggest you follow the Pope and the vast majority of Cardinals in your lack of qualifications on this matter.
Yes, to do otherwise by leaping from your own clearly poor qualifications and foundation in knowing what truly constitutes Catholic Tradition is objectively foolish.
If you cannot trust the Pope in your inexpertness then you are being called to walk a distressing time of confusion in darkness until you eventually see light. Opposing the Pope’s statements like this simply because you are not yet able to understand is foolish and goes nowhere.
We can all find alleged experts to support our stubborn views if we wish.
Just as do flat-earthers.
Though it is always clear when we are drawing long bows…such as relying on four increasingly out of line and disaffected Cardinals against the vast majority
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Tim_D
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You have the nerve to lecture me on being unknowledgeable about the subject and then turn around and cast judgement upon these 4 cardinals who are leaps and bounds beyond you in their understanding of the Church and what it teaches!Though it is always clear when we are drawing long bows…such as relying on four increasingly out of line and disaffected Cardinals against the vast majority
Yeah, no offense to you, either. As your are not a “rocket scientist,” then I suggest you at least give a little amount of credibility to the 4 cardinals seeking clarification instead of relying on your knowledge and judgement of the subject which is greatly inferior to those 4 men who hold prominent positions in Christ’s Church.
Also, this statement "Controversy erupted after the document was published, and in July 2016, a group of Catholic scholars, prelates and clergy sent an appeal to the College of Cardinals asking that they petition Pope Francis to “repudiate” what they see as “erroneous propositions” contained in Amoris Laetitia,[2] and several confraternities representing thousands of priests asked for a formal clarification" tends to suggest that it is a good deal more than just 4 Cardinals who have concerns over Pope Francis’ exhortation. When was the last time that a pope caused so much confusion among his own clergy?
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Debbie_Kono
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Blue Horizon,
The Pope speaks for all of Christendom, correct? Even our separated Protestant brethren, wether they believe it or not, correct? Heck even the whole world…wether they believe it or not, correct? He has to, seeing as he is the Vicar of Christ on earth, correct? Would you agree to all this?
The Pope speaks for all of Christendom, correct? Even our separated Protestant brethren, wether they believe it or not, correct? Heck even the whole world…wether they believe it or not, correct? He has to, seeing as he is the Vicar of Christ on earth, correct? Would you agree to all this?
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Blue_Horizon
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Where did I rely on my own pastoral experience and theological education to demonstrate the foolishness of your approach… or to deny the concerns of the 4 Cards?
I simply observed the Church has always had educated fors and againsts on almost every major issue and that is no surprise. The opposition on this issue is exceedingly small compared to times past and other major issues. Uneducated laity will always find some educated opposition to the Pope if they go searching hard enough.
To suggest that indicates the Pope is against Tradition and that we in our theological infancy are rightly with Tradition because of four vocal Cardinals is a somewhat ridiculous approach to the matter.
As I say, if you are confused then, like the Cardinals, I suggest you be patient and come to grips with the need for walking with your confusion humbly until things eventually become clear for you in time.
Most of us either have no confusion or are able to tolerate the discomfort.
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Blue_Horizon
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I don’t really know what you mean. The Pope clearly doesn’t speak for me nor for some posters here in some real sense.
However I am willing to accept that when I don’t see things the same way as the Pope there is very likely great need for me to pray more or find more wise counsel on the matter.
The Pope oversees ongoing debates in the Church that are always present, sometimes he closes them off (as he did re contraception in the 60s), sometimes he allows ongoing divergence (as he does over whether Mary died or not), sometimes he defines a direction (with Dogmas) and sometimes he re-opens matters previously considered closed or never seriously addressed (such as whether some of the remarried may receive Communion given that widespread remarriage now happens in the Church and is no longer the breath taking scandal it once was).
There are all sorts of techniques he can call upon to achieves these purposes.
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Tim_D
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Actually, the opposition is far more than “exceedingly small.” If you researched the topic you would know that.
The main jest of chapter 8 distinctly and contrarily goes against what Pope John Paul II had explicitly put into writing and is the main source of contention that the 4 Cardinals included in the Dubia. Have you even read the Dubia and the questions being asked? It isn’t so clear and elementary as try to make it.
Perhaps you can explain away the confusion to this question:
- After the publication of the post-synodal exhortation Amoris Laetitia (304), does one still need to regard as valid the teaching of St. John Paul II’s encyclical Veritatis Splendor, 79, based on sacred Scripture and on the Tradition of the Church, on the existence of absolute moral norms that prohibit intrinsically evil acts and that are binding without exceptions?
- After Amoris Laetitia (301) is it still possible to affirm that a person who habitually lives in contradiction to a commandment of God’s law, as for instance the one that prohibits adultery (Matthew 19:3-9), finds him or herself in an objective situation of grave habitual sin (Pontifical Council for Legislative Texts, “Declaration,” June 24, 2000)?
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Tim_D
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You judge the Cardinals again, do you? What credentials do you have that gives you greater insight than these four men who speak for many others in the Church?
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Blue_Horizon
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I simply am not going to discuss theological issues that are well outside the expertise of theologically uneducated and pastorally inexperienced lay persons.
You need to learn to tolerate confusion and grow through it.
The sooner you recognise the foolishness of what you attempt and the naiivity of doing so to escape your confusion the sooner you will be a happy camper.
Leave it to the big boys - who if they had any love of the Church would be doing so by not speaking to the gallery and tempting lay dissenters like yourself to fly beyond your height.
There’s nothing more to say other than to attach the following picture which tells a timeless truth:
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