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bluebutterfly
Guest
For the umpteenth time, I said it parallel’s witchcraft/magic/socery. It is pretending to use supernatural power that is not of God. It is a great tool used by satan to educate and lure people in, especially children.
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CTA1967
Guest
Okay. That’s a definition. You have the burdon of proof to show us that RPGs directly relate to the use of supernatural power.
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CTA1967
Guest
Then read the post right above yours!
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bluebutterfly
Guest
The great downfall of satan was wanting to “be like God.” The allure of satanism is the use of supernatural power to feel powerful and to get things you want. What is the goal of D&D?
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bluebutterfly
Guest
Now you’re saying that D&D is not pretending to use supernatural powers?
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CTA1967
Guest
If you even have to ask that question, then you do not have enough knowledge to judge this matter morally. No, the goal is not necessarily to use “supernatural power to feel powerful”. The whole point of RPGs is that you chose how you act.
And again, I repeat, slippery slope fallacy.
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mlchance
Guest
It apparently isn’t to use “supernatural power to feel powerful and to get things you want.” From the website of the company that publishes D&D: What Is D&D?.
I skimmed through the site at the link. Not a single mention of using supernatural power, whether of God or not of God. Once again, I can only conclude you don’t actually know what you’re talking about.
– Mark L. Chance.
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bluebutterfly
Guest
See above . . .
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mlchance
Guest
See what above? I’m terribly confused now. I guess my time spent studying Catholic philosophy and theology has led me to have unrealistic expectations about the minimum level of lucidity required for a rational discussion.
– Mark L. Chance.
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CTA1967
Guest
By the way, here are some examples of “parallel argument fallacies”:
thelivelytradition.blogspot.com/2007/07/parallel-argument-fallacy.html
thelivelytradition.blogspot.com/2007/07/parallel-argument-fallacy.html
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bluebutterfly
Guest
Another deception of satan is to lie. D&D is role playing using “pretend” supernatural powers (not of God). It often becomes an all-encompassing “reality” game because it parallels satanism so closely that the lines become fuzzy. Using supernatural powers not from God is condemned in the Bible. So, therein lies the argument against it.
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CTA1967
Guest
What, you mean all the way at the top of the page where I point out the logical fallacies you’re making?
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bluebutterfly
Guest
The linear view of the entire thread. I realize you want me to repeat myself, but I’ve already made my points. If you need to review, the linear view shows the entire thread.What, you mean all the way at the top of the page where I point out the logical fallacies you’re making?
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CTA1967
Guest
Can you prove that? By the way, right above your post, I show the error of parallel arguments. I suppose now you’re just going to substitute the word “parallel” for something equally fallacious.
Oh yeah, you still haven’t justified any of your fallacies yet.
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mlchance
Guest
But that’s a pretty weak argument. Let’s unpack your claims one at a time:
1. “Another deception of satan is to lie.”
I doubt you’ll get anyone arguing against this rather mundane point.
2. “D&D is role playing using ‘pretend’ supernatural powers (not of God).”
This seems a safe generalization, but given the apparently flexible nature of the game, it can’t be said to be true in all cases. Thus, at best, it is a possible cautionary statement. For example, what if someone played the game with the premise that the “pretend supernatural powers” were of God? Or, what if someone played the game without using the “pretend supernatural powers” at all? In either case, your entire argument completely collapses.
3. “It often becomes an all-encompassing ‘reality’ game because it parallels satanism so closely that the lines become fuzzy.”
There are actually two claims above, and no evidence presented for either. First, how often is “often”. I’m pretty well-read, and I’ve never heard a single document instance where the game’s “reality” became “all-encompassing”. Second, you’re again merely asserting that the game has parallels to satanism. Thus far, there’s not a shred of evidence to back up this claim. In light of these problems, you argument is at the very least in very serious trouble.
4. “Using supernatural powers not from God is condemned in the Bible.”
No one is arguing this isn’t true. It’s also apparently irrelevant to the point at hand since pretending to do something and actually doing something are not the same thing. Likewise, pretending to do something does not necessarily have the same moral quality as actually doing that thing.
All in all, your argument fails to pass rational examination. It can thus be safely dismissed.
– Mark L. Chance.
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CWBetts
Guest
Before I address the debate at hand, i feel the need to lay out some facts about myself:
1> I have played D&D, Marvel Super Heroes, Rifts, Shadowrun, Magic the Gathering, GURPS, Battletech, and a myriad of other games for years.
2> Before becoming Catholic I was exposed to the absolute lunacy of Fundamental Evangelicals, including the works of Jack Chick. In addition I had aquaintances who were enamored with the occult.
Bluebutterfly, it is painfully obvious you do not know what you are talking about. To dismiss D&D as a work of Satan, you must do the same to Monopoly (yes, I play that one too!) In D&D you work together with your friends to combat evil (which can be done with no supernatural powers in the game, although it does then switch from being “Fantasy” to “Historical Adventure”) I have had spellcasting characters, but spellcastign in the game usually comes down to “do i turn invisible and hide, or cast magic missle and blast the critter” in essence its the same as the fighter type saying “do i crouch behind this rock and hide or shoot the critter with my bow.” In contrast, the a much stronger argument can be made against Monopoly. You are pretending to be areal estate investor with a single goal: drive your competitors out of business and its every man for himself. Hardly Christ-like. D&D is full of oppertunities to help one another, not so in traditional board games. My advice to you is to have a clue as to what you are talking about before you go around attacking windmills for giants.
1> I have played D&D, Marvel Super Heroes, Rifts, Shadowrun, Magic the Gathering, GURPS, Battletech, and a myriad of other games for years.
2> Before becoming Catholic I was exposed to the absolute lunacy of Fundamental Evangelicals, including the works of Jack Chick. In addition I had aquaintances who were enamored with the occult.
Bluebutterfly, it is painfully obvious you do not know what you are talking about. To dismiss D&D as a work of Satan, you must do the same to Monopoly (yes, I play that one too!) In D&D you work together with your friends to combat evil (which can be done with no supernatural powers in the game, although it does then switch from being “Fantasy” to “Historical Adventure”) I have had spellcasting characters, but spellcastign in the game usually comes down to “do i turn invisible and hide, or cast magic missle and blast the critter” in essence its the same as the fighter type saying “do i crouch behind this rock and hide or shoot the critter with my bow.” In contrast, the a much stronger argument can be made against Monopoly. You are pretending to be areal estate investor with a single goal: drive your competitors out of business and its every man for himself. Hardly Christ-like. D&D is full of oppertunities to help one another, not so in traditional board games. My advice to you is to have a clue as to what you are talking about before you go around attacking windmills for giants.
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mlchance
Guest
With all this talk about parallels, I guess I should toss in my two cents worth.
I was raised Southern Baptist. I was baptized when I was 11 upon my public profession of faith. That faith didn’t really grow much over the next several years. When I was 17, I joined the Army, and my church attendance was limited largely to weddings, funerals, and those times when I was home on leave. During those latter times, I became increasingly close to a Catholic girl I’d attended high school with. At first, her Catholicism wasn’t even a blip on my radar. Let’s just say my interests were very much less than spiritual.
This Catholic girl and I were married in the Church after my honorable discharge from the Army. The importance of religion to her led me to re-evaluate the importance of religion to me. I became increasingly involved in a Baptist church, both as a congregant as well as a Sunday school teacher. At the same time, I also attending the University of St. Thomas in Houston, Texas. I graduated from that fine Catholic institution with a degree in history, minors in philosophy, theology, and English, and a deep appreciation for my wife’s faith.
Despite doctors’ claims that my wife could never bear children, my son Christopher was born in December 1996. By this time, I was teaching in an inner-city Catholic school, leading to a daily exposure to Catholicism as lived by a variety of people, plus more regular attendance at Mass than most Catholics. When Christopher was old enough to start pre-K, it was very important to my wife Katrina that he receive a Catholic education. Since it was very important to her, it was very important to me.
Unfortunately, my lousy pay combined with her lousy pay made coming up with the necessary monies for registration, books, tuition, and uniforms extremely problematic. Katrina prayed. I fretted. Then, in answer to Katrina’s prayers, I received a job offer to do some freelance writing for Fantasy Flight Games. I accepted, and was paid enough to get Christopher into school. Thus, my long involvement with fantasy RPGs led directly to my son’s Catholic education (which continued to this day). The same circumstance would repeat itself when my daughter Adrienne was old enough to start attending Catholic school. My work for Fantasy Flight Games made paying the necessary fees possible.
The next interesting event came when Christopher was starting the second grade and sacramental preparation for First Communion. I had become increasingly disillusioned with being a Southern Baptist. Too much of what Southern Baptists generally believed could not be reconciled with historic Christianity or Scripture. Watching how my children had thrived in a Catholic environment was inspiring. Observing Katrina’s patient, prayerful sufferance of my many foibles was humbling. My assocation with Katrina’s parents, Deacon Louis and his wife Joan, only served to further highlight the deficiencies of my character and my faith.
So, that same year Christopher received First Communion, so did I.
Today, I’m still teaching, albeit for the time no longer in a Catholic school. I am one of two people at my parish who prepare and present adult religious education classes, all with the blessing and under the watchful eye of Father. I am a certified catechist in my archdiocese. Throughout all this time, I still am involved in fantasy roleplaying games as a hobby (although no longer as a freelance writer; interestingly enough, that work dried up right around the time I no longer needed the income, but not before I had a chance to pen FFG’s Path of Legend, which includes a Catholic defense of objective morality).
There isn’t a doubt in my mind that God used my hobby to ensure my children’s entrance into the Catholic school system. That committment contributed to my entrance into the Church. My association with a drug addict – both during gaming and in other social situations – helped that friend accept that his crystal meth addiction was leading down a dark road from which there’d be no return. He’s now clean and sober, doing fine, and has told me it was the nonjudgmental faith of me and my wife that helped him see a better way of life. (He’s not converted…yet.)
How strange that something that some dismiss as evil could lead to so much undeniable good. It’s almost as if the naysayers don’t really know what they’re talking about.
– Mark L. Chance.
I was raised Southern Baptist. I was baptized when I was 11 upon my public profession of faith. That faith didn’t really grow much over the next several years. When I was 17, I joined the Army, and my church attendance was limited largely to weddings, funerals, and those times when I was home on leave. During those latter times, I became increasingly close to a Catholic girl I’d attended high school with. At first, her Catholicism wasn’t even a blip on my radar. Let’s just say my interests were very much less than spiritual.
This Catholic girl and I were married in the Church after my honorable discharge from the Army. The importance of religion to her led me to re-evaluate the importance of religion to me. I became increasingly involved in a Baptist church, both as a congregant as well as a Sunday school teacher. At the same time, I also attending the University of St. Thomas in Houston, Texas. I graduated from that fine Catholic institution with a degree in history, minors in philosophy, theology, and English, and a deep appreciation for my wife’s faith.
Despite doctors’ claims that my wife could never bear children, my son Christopher was born in December 1996. By this time, I was teaching in an inner-city Catholic school, leading to a daily exposure to Catholicism as lived by a variety of people, plus more regular attendance at Mass than most Catholics. When Christopher was old enough to start pre-K, it was very important to my wife Katrina that he receive a Catholic education. Since it was very important to her, it was very important to me.
Unfortunately, my lousy pay combined with her lousy pay made coming up with the necessary monies for registration, books, tuition, and uniforms extremely problematic. Katrina prayed. I fretted. Then, in answer to Katrina’s prayers, I received a job offer to do some freelance writing for Fantasy Flight Games. I accepted, and was paid enough to get Christopher into school. Thus, my long involvement with fantasy RPGs led directly to my son’s Catholic education (which continued to this day). The same circumstance would repeat itself when my daughter Adrienne was old enough to start attending Catholic school. My work for Fantasy Flight Games made paying the necessary fees possible.
The next interesting event came when Christopher was starting the second grade and sacramental preparation for First Communion. I had become increasingly disillusioned with being a Southern Baptist. Too much of what Southern Baptists generally believed could not be reconciled with historic Christianity or Scripture. Watching how my children had thrived in a Catholic environment was inspiring. Observing Katrina’s patient, prayerful sufferance of my many foibles was humbling. My assocation with Katrina’s parents, Deacon Louis and his wife Joan, only served to further highlight the deficiencies of my character and my faith.
So, that same year Christopher received First Communion, so did I.
Today, I’m still teaching, albeit for the time no longer in a Catholic school. I am one of two people at my parish who prepare and present adult religious education classes, all with the blessing and under the watchful eye of Father. I am a certified catechist in my archdiocese. Throughout all this time, I still am involved in fantasy roleplaying games as a hobby (although no longer as a freelance writer; interestingly enough, that work dried up right around the time I no longer needed the income, but not before I had a chance to pen FFG’s Path of Legend, which includes a Catholic defense of objective morality).
There isn’t a doubt in my mind that God used my hobby to ensure my children’s entrance into the Catholic school system. That committment contributed to my entrance into the Church. My association with a drug addict – both during gaming and in other social situations – helped that friend accept that his crystal meth addiction was leading down a dark road from which there’d be no return. He’s now clean and sober, doing fine, and has told me it was the nonjudgmental faith of me and my wife that helped him see a better way of life. (He’s not converted…yet.)
How strange that something that some dismiss as evil could lead to so much undeniable good. It’s almost as if the naysayers don’t really know what they’re talking about.
– Mark L. Chance.
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bluebutterfly
Guest
All my points about fantasy taking over were proven by long, drawn out, egostistical, self-proclaiming soliloquy, which also did not prove it is “harmless” to pretend to use witchcraft/magic/socery.
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mlchance
Guest
How pathetic. Since you’ve basically just called me a liar, I guess it’s time for me to officially ignore you.
– Mark L. Chance.
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