Duress and culpability

[Bookcat]

OH COOL! I’ve had those texts for so long and I’ve never known they were online! OOOOH, are they searchable??? I agree GG says what he does (having read the first three volumes), but he is a theologian, not the Magisterium. And yes, I agree he is orthodox. But he could be wrong. I had assumed Ron would not accept him as a citation.

yes he is theologian and not the Magisterium …(of course neither is Ron…)

I used to go to him all the time…but not so much anymore for his style etc does not suit me…

but he is orthodox (Catholic)…and a good source.

and yes Ron recommended this work and the other big works by him…

but again …one needs to read my above posts well…

 

[Bookcat]

**Germain Grisez **(one of the Sources that Ron recommended) who is an orthodox Catholic moral theologian …says that yes one is morally justified in a rape …to act to prevent conception …even potential victims may act to prevent conception and that this per se is not contraception…but in the order of self defense as has been argued here…

All can read it here section 2 letter f. make sure you read too the footnote 103 which says among other things that of course abortion is not permitted…

twotlj.org/G-2-8-E.html the Way of the Lord Jesus vol 2.

so while a condom is not explicitly mentioned…it may be the case that it could be…since other non-abortive things can be done to prevent conception in the case of rape…or anticipated rape…including spermacide…withdrawal…anti fertility drugs before the rape…

but i do not think a rapist is going to really listen to a victims request anyhow…even if it is legit…

PS: it would seem then that it would be “self defense” in this case that is the object…

the act would NOT be the moral reality of ‘contraception’

 

[PaulinVA]

Okay, let’s combine the two discussions:

Can the woman being raped convince the rapist to use a condom by lying that she has AIDS?

 

[Pug]

but again …one needs to read my above posts well…

I did, don’t worry! You said you don’t know about several things and talked about heat without much light. Also you posted CCC segments.

My sadness is that such an unclarity exists for us (us = those who puzzle about these things on this thread). I prefer light to be easily and clearly seen. Often the answers available to me from official sources seem inadequate to cover my inquiry or to allow me to respond to an inquiry from someone else. I assume others feel the same way at times. I would really like to *understand *morality, putting my reason on line with my faith, and not just say, “I’ll do it,” but to say, “I see.” :newidea: If I see, I can share that with someone.

This is a good opportunity to practice the virtue of patience and humility, I suppose.

 

[Pug]

Okay, let’s combine the two discussions:

Can the woman being raped convince the rapist to use a condom by lying that she has AIDS?

Not all of us are on board with the getting the rapist to wear a condom scenario, though, so lying is not going to help. I’m more willing to scenarios that involve her actions entirely separate from his.

 

[Bookcat]

I did, don’t worry! You said you don’t know about several things and talked about heat without much light. Also you posted CCC segments.

My sadness is that such an unclarity exists for us (us = those who puzzle about these things on this thread). I prefer light to be easily and clearly seen. Often the answers available to me from official sources seem inadequate to cover my inquiry or to allow me to respond to an inquiry from someone else. I assume others feel the same way at times. I would really like to *understand *morality, putting my reason on line with my faith, and not just say, “I’ll do it,” but to say, “I see.” :newidea: If I see, I can share that with someone.

This is a good opportunity to practice the virtue of patience and humility, I suppose.

Grisez seems to provide some light. and there can exist other sources that are more official…but remember…the Magisterium does not get into all the details of moral theology…that is for the moral theologians…

so it is good to look to those moral theologians who ‘think with the Church’

 

[Pug]

Grisez seems to provide some light. and there can exist other sources that are more official…but remember…the Magisterium does not get into all the details of moral theology…that is for the moral theologians…

so it is good to look to those moral theologians who ‘think with the Church’

I agree. As I mentioned, I’ve had the GG books for quite awhile. I am ever so grateful to him for his logical presentation of moral theology. It was the first in depth, understandable treatment I’d ever read and it helped immensely. He assisted me to understand why nfp and contraception are not the same thing. I’d only ever just said, Okay, I’ll obey and accept, though the distinction seems irrational to me. Now I actually have a grip on the difference between them that is somewhat my own. Moral theologians provide a great service to the rest of the faithful. I must be the first in line to say that, especially about Grisez. Also about Thomas, but not so much for moral theology as theology.

 

[Jerok]

Ask an apologist forum:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=25127

This shows that in the case of rape, a woman may try to intercept the sperm to prevent conception from occurring. But once conception occurs, one cannot remove the egg as that is a human life.

I don’t know if this applies to a condom - but once the sperm are inside she can morally try to remove them. This implies to me that a condom would be morally licit in this extreme example.

Also, saying lying is intrisically evil’ is wrong since the intention is to deceive in most cases, but in some cases, the intention is to save a life, such as in the Nazi search for Jews.

Murder, the killing of another human, is defined in a way that it is always intrinsically wrong. Killing, however, is not. To say ‘killing’ is intrinsically evil is like saying ‘lying’ is intrinsically evil. However, we have no better word for ‘lie’ , like the way ‘murder and killing’ are different.

Lie is like kill, not murder, not intrinsically evil. Both are wrong, but an intent of goodness (in addition to other circumstances according to the principle of double effect) allows them to be be morally licit.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Ask an apologist forum:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=25127

This shows that in the case of rape, a woman may try to intercept the sperm to prevent conception from occurring. But once conception occurs, one cannot remove the egg as that is a human life.

I don’t know if this applies to a condom - but once the sperm are inside she can morally try to remove them. This implies to me that a condom would be morally licit in this extreme example.

Also, saying lying is intrisically evil’ is wrong since the intention is to deceive in most cases, but in some cases, the intention is to save a life, such as in the Nazi search for Jews.

Murder, the killing of another human, is defined in a way that it is always intrinsically wrong. Killing, however, is not. To say ‘killing’ is intrinsically evil is like saying ‘lying’ is intrinsically evil. However, we have no better word for ‘lie’ , like the way ‘murder and killing’ are different.

Lie is like kill, not murder, not intrinsically evil. Both are wrong, but an intent of goodness (in addition to other circumstances according to the principle of double effect) allows them to be be morally licit.

I would really like to see the OP’s quotes - the ones he/she says are ignored. I won’t ignore them. I hope he/she posts them because I am very interested in Church teaching regarding both scenarios.

 

[FiberZilla]

I think this is a weird question and it came up in another topic. First of all, if the creep is willing to use a condom, what is going on? Is she in chains so she can’t get out. Is she protesting and he says I’ll kill you and you can’t get out. And then she says, okay, if you must, use a condom?!

How many people while they are honestly being rape, as in this is assault have time to think about the need for the other person to use a condom? And how many guys raping people will stop their action to put on a condom.

This is just a ridiculous set up question.

Let me ask in return a more outlandish question. What if I were to decapitate your father and rape your mother, would you insist I use a condom!?

Let’s keep this charitable. It’s not ridiculous. People are very promiscuous these days. When a man asks a woman out, he doesn’t necessarily know her level of morality. With the risk of disease and pregnancy, a lot of “responsible” men bring condoms with them on dates in hopes of having sex before the evening is over.

Men get out of control and force themselves on their date far more often than you can imagine. Date rape is one of the most under reported crimes. Are you going to tell me that if the creep is unwrapping a condom this girl (who is begging him to stop… and has half of her clothes pulled off) has to ask him not to use it?

It would seem to me that if she is guilty of anything, it would be bad judgement for going to his apartment for a drink or movie after dinner without knowing him better.

As far as your question goes:
If I were present during that deed, I would find the means to terminate your actions. There would be no need to even worry about a condom.

 

[FiberZilla]

Contraception is intrinsically evil, but the case asked about is not contraception. Rape is not a conjugal act. A condom in such a circumstance is not contraception. It is repelling an unjust aggressor.

Thank You! If this is an accurate interpretation of Catholic teaching, you have restored a large measure sanity to the discussion!

• To those who called the date rape scenario ridiculous or outlandish, I must remind you that Ron (the OP) entitles this thread “duress and culpability”. Date rape pretty much is the epitome of duress.

 

[FiberZilla]

Okay, let’s combine the two discussions:

Can the woman being raped convince the rapist to use a condom by lying that she has AIDS?

Now you have just convicteed her of TWO mortal sins!


Let’s remember, this isn’t a back alley rapist. This is a dating situation where the guy who has had too many drinks and won’t take no for an answer.

 

[PaulinVA]

Now you have just convicteed her of TWO mortal sins!


Let’s remember, this isn’t a back alley rapist. This is a dating situation where the guy who has had too many drinks and won’t take no for an answer.

I just reread your post at #2 that started this, and yes, you were asking about date rape. Is that different in morality from the guy who lays in wait in a woman’s apartment?

Rape is always an intrinsically evil act. From what others have posted, the woman seems to have the ability to protect yourself from him, both from the violence and from the material that could cause conception.

 

[LittleSoldier]

I think this is a weird question and it came up in another topic. First of all, if the creep is willing to use a condom, what is going on? Is she in chains so she can’t get out. Is she protesting and he says I’ll kill you and you can’t get out. And then she says, okay, if you must, use a condom?!

How many people while they are honestly being rape, as in this is assault have time to think about the need for the other person to use a condom? And how many guys raping people will stop their action to put on a condom.

This is just a ridiculous set up question.

Let me ask in return a more outlandish question. What if I were to decapitate your father and rape your mother, would you insist I use a condom!?

This is not a ridiculous question. Any rapist who knows what he is doing knows that if he leaves semen, a DNA test can be performed. If he uses a condom he can take it away with him, yucky as that seems, and then won’t be incriminating himself and making the job much easier for the police.

It makes sense for a woman who is being raped to defend herself against the possible transmission of HIV (and other STDs) and for the possibility of conception.

I don’t know why you brought up the scenario of decapitation of my father, but I would intervene if possible, although if the murderer wore a condom it would have no bearing on the end result. However, if my mother were being attacked by a rapist and I couldn’t help in any other way than by asking the rapist to use a condom, I would ask the rapist to use a condom, for my mother’s protection against the possible transmission of HIV (and other STDs).

I have talked to women who have been raped. I have a certificate in Sexual Crisis Counseling. You might be surprised at the presence of mind many women have when they are going through this horrific experience. Some memorize every little detail so that they can provide evidence to the police. Some imagine they are somewhere else so that they don’t have to deal with what is going on with them at the moment. Every woman I know has considered the possibility of rape and what she would do if that were to occur - how she would defend herself. Women don’t go into a rape situation blind. They already know what to do; hopefully they have the presence of mind to do what is necessary to protect themselves if a rape actually occurs.

 

[FiberZilla]

I just reread your post at #2 that started this, and yes, you were asking about date rape. Is that different in morality from the guy who lays in wait in a woman’s apartment?

Rape is always an intrinsically evil act. From what others have posted, the woman seems to have the ability to protect yourself from him, both from the violence and from the material that could cause conception.

Both men are guilty of a crime.
I was only illustrating that this was not an “ambush” type of rape from a complete stranger, but a dating situation and therefore it is more likely that he would have brought a condom.

 

[PaulinVA]

Both men are guilty of a crime.
I was only illustrating that this was not an “ambush” type of rape from a complete stranger, but a dating situation and therefore it is more likely that he would have brought a condom.

Okay. That makes sense. Littlesoldier’s post does as well.

 

[LittleSoldier]

Thank You! If this is an accurate interpretation of Catholic teaching, you have restored a large measure sanity to the discussion!

• To those who called the date rape scenario ridiculous or outlandish, I must remind you that Ron (the OP) entitles this thread “duress and culpability”. Date rape pretty much is the epitome of duress.

This is what I have been trying to find out (without much success). I’m having some trouble wording this and I apologize for that, but what I want to point out is that married couples have a covenant. In rape there is no covenant.

If someone can add to this I would really appreciate it because I’m not too clear on covenants. I’m having problems finding anything about Church teaching on rape because every time I google it I keep running into the case with the nine-year old who was raped and frankly, I can’t deal with the insults and profanity being lodged against the Church right now. I’m not even going to the websites - it’s in the little blurbs that describe the contents of the websites.

I tried to email the Organization of US Bishops (sorry, I may have that name wrong, too) but my computer won’t let me.

I tried to use my own copy of the CCC but the index is poor and I can’t find the information.


So right now I’m stuck and need help from someone who is brave enough to muddle through the blurbs of all the websites that are popping up and find the information that is needed about condom use during a rape.

 

[Pug]

I tried to email the Organization of US Bishops (sorry, I may have that name wrong, too) but my computer won’t let me.

I tried to use my own copy of the CCC but the index is poor and I can’t find the information.


So right now I’m stuck and need help from someone who is brave enough to muddle through the blurbs of all the websites that are popping up and find the information that is needed about condom use during a rape.

LittleSoldier, the CCC does not tell us about condom use during a rape in a specific way, like a sentence that talks about rape and condoms together. There is no such sentence. To find that out for yourself, and not take my word for it, you will be glad to know that there is a website where you can search the CCC by words, so if the index is unhelpful, use the site here. Type the word(s) that you wish to look for into the box. There is one paragraph that contains the word “rape”. It is number 2356. It doesn’t mention condoms. You can’t find the word “condom(s)” in the CCC. Contraception is mentioned in paragraph 2370, (and other places). Here are some paragraphs:

**2356 ***Rape *is the forcible violation of the sexual intimacy of another person. It does injury to justice and charity. Rape deeply wounds the respect, freedom, and physical and moral integrity to which every person has a right. It causes grave damage that can mark the victim for life. It is always an intrinsically evil act. Graver still is the rape of children committed by parents (incest) or those responsible for the education of the children entrusted to them.

**2370 **Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality. These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. In contrast, “every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible” is intrinsically evil:Thus the innate language that expresses the total reciprocal self-giving of husband and wife is overlaid, through contraception, by an objectively contradictory language, namely, that of not giving oneself totally to the other. This leads not only to a positive refusal to be open to life but also to a falsification of the inner truth of conjugal love, which is called upon to give itself in personal totality. . . . The difference, both anthropological and moral, between contraception and recourse to the rhythm of the cycle . . . involves in the final analysis two irreconcilable concepts of the human person and of human sexuality.

Also, I will repost the quote I gave earlier on this thread from the site of the United State Conference of Catholic Bishops. I don’t know of one that is more direct than this one on the bishop’s site or in a magisterial document, or I would give it. But perhaps someone else does know of one.
USCCB FACT SHEET:

A woman who has been raped should be able to defend herself from a potential conception and receive treatments to suppress ovulation and incapacitate sperm. If conception has occurred, however, a Catholic hospital will not dispense drugs to interfere with implantation of a newly conceived human embryo.

That quote is not about condom use during the rape. It is about something the woman does after the rape.

 

[LittleSoldier]

LittleSoldier, the CCC does not tell us about condom use during a rape in a specific way, like a sentence that talks about rape and condoms together. There is no such sentence. To find that out for yourself, and not take my word for it, you will be glad to know that there is a website where you can search the CCC by words, so if the index is unhelpful, use the site here. Type the word(s) that you wish to look for into the box. There is one paragraph that contains the word “rape”. It is number 2356. It doesn’t mention condoms. You can’t find the word “condom(s)” in the CCC. Contraception is mentioned in paragraph 2370, (and other places). Here are some paragraphs:

Also, I will repost the quote I gave earlier on this thread from the site of the United State Conference of Catholic Bishops. I don’t know of one that is more direct than this one on the bishop’s site or in a magisterial document, or I would give it. But perhaps someone else does know of one.

That quote is not about condom use during the rape. It is about something the woman does after the rape.

Thank you!! I missed the quotes you provided earlier. I found out about the USCCB determination on another thread and checked it out then but I forgot where I saw it. Actually at first I didn’t believe it and I had never heard of the USCCB but I checked it out and it appears to be legitimate.

So I guess at this point we don’t know for certain if it is a sin. But I believe in a loving, merciful God and I hope that whatever one does that is not a violation of Church teaching and is done in order to protect one’s body or another person’s body is appropriate.

Thank you again!!

 

[LittleSoldier]

I agree that the majority of the violence is not prevented. But a small portion is, that of contact between a portion of her skin and his, and in a very emotionally important location of contact. Also, she will not have his cells left inside her, which is creepy and intrusive. Though, I think it unlikely that a rapist would agree to a condom. Her remedy is more likely to be removal after the fact. I’d expect the rapist who would use a condom would already have brought several along to prevent himself from getting AIDS or from a cop matching his genes to a database.

I find a number of the intrinsically evil with duress scenarios to be emotional, myself. People often put forward lying and the Nazis (please, please let us not go there) as an example. I’m not saying it is or it isn’t an example, but that is often put forward as one. The same with someone holding my family at gunpoint to get me to do something. I would probably break. I would be overwhelmed by the danger to those I love. I guess it is hard for me to imagine real duress without being somewhat distressed, mostly because it is distressing to imagine breaking down and doing something wrong, a wrong I would never, ever do normally (with the help of grace). A wrong I find repellent.

Complete agreement here, Ron.

Ooops, sorry, I went there with the Nazi thing. But I did it with all good intentions and believe me, I have never seen it discussed on this forum. I apologize, but I would like to know what a person is supposed to do. Evidently this has been discussed and debated to death but I didn’t know that and I still don’t know what to do.

My apologies but I’m going to go ahead and discuss it.