Dutch doctors can sedate ‘agitated’ patients before euthanasia

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It’s not enough that they can euthanize people.
Now they can decide to euthanize someone, and then decide to drug their victim into submission before killing them. 💢
 
spoonerc said:
However, I heard of an instance where a woman needed a certain drug to live. The insurance company informed her that she would be provided with a suicide pill if she so desired but the drug she needed would not be provided.
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That’s where legal assisted suicide and private healthcare leed us.

This case is a strong argument against “profit before human life”.
 
I think that public healthcare is at least as dangerous if not more so.
There will be standards of care and criteria for determining eligibility.
All healthcare is any system is necessarily rationed-no one gets unlimited healthcare.
The government will determine who qualifies for what procedures and who is ineligible for procedures.
The expensive elderly will be vulnerable indeed, as will the mentally challenged, and the disabled. Little ones who are not yet into their productive wage earner years are likely to be seen as less valuable than those who are physically mature and economically productive.
We’ve seen what happens in China when the state is in charge. The decision that one child is enough leads to a strange form of ‘health care’ where abortion is coerced for the good of the country. It’s not a good idea to give this much power to any state.
 
Zaccheus said:
It’s not enough that they can euthanize people.
Now they can decide to euthanize someone, and then decide to drug their victim into submission before killing them. 💢
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Anybody who claims slippery slope is “just a fallacy”… 😡
 
JMMJ said:
Oftentimes it is the patient’s request, via their advanced directive.
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In Holland compulsory euthanasia exists. I know a nun who took the veil after having been a doctor at a clinic for irredeemable alcoholics. Legal guardianship is granted to the clinic whose doctors can then decide in favour of euthanasia.

The doctor I know refused to co-operate. Eventually it led her to convert to Catholicism and after that to join the sisters of the Incarnate Word
 
public healthcare does not always lead to legal abortion and euthanasia. There are many european countries who have universal heathcare but not with one, and some not with the other.
jeannetherese said:
There will be standards of care and criteria for determining eligibility.
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It happens in some states, but not all. Not in France, even if the healthacare is become less and less good in the recent years.
jeannetherese said:
The expensive elderly will be vulnerable indeed, as will the mentally challenged, and the disabled.
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This is a vulnerable population, that’s why the state help them for their healtcare and basic life. Admitedly, paying a nursing home for an elderly parent is very expensive. The person and his family are paying, the state help a little. The budget that is consacrated to help elderly is a very important part of the total healt security budget.
Diasabled people can have their healthcare 100% covered.

China is something apart: it’s a dictature.

To have an universal health cover guarantee and mandate by the state alleviate social injustice and protects people who are less healthy and who are poor.

What will make vulnerable people more vulnerable to be killed is a law of legal euthanasia or assisted suicide. Not State health care by itself. That’s why we should fight this laws and promote a culture of life inside the health care environment, families and the average society.
 
If you look at England, they have universal healthcare, yet their abortion rate is pretty much on par with ours. And a board of doctors makes end of life decisions for patients. So a terminally ill patient is left with no alternative options. They can’t try experimental medications as it’s too costly. Look at how hard the Democrats in congress a couple years ago fought against “right to try” experimental meds. Yet it’s always Democratic states that legalize euthanasia. Makes ya think. The Democrats don’t care about conscientious objections and abortion is framed as healthcare. Euthanasia is popular in places of universal healthcare because it’s COSTLY for taxpayers to pay for everyone’s healthcare-especially in a extremely populated country like the U.S. and with Democrats also supporting open borders/healthcare for all immigrants-legal and illegal. Euthanasia and abortion are very secular based decisions and make socialism(universal healthcare and income redistribution) more economically feasible. You think if universal healthcare was passed, that we wouldn’t be paying for ALL abortions in the US?
 
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At many hospices we have a soft euthanasia going on that is difficult to pin down morally. Both of my parents died of morphine overdose. I watched it happen.

Both of them had terminal conditions.
Both of them would have lived for anywhere from weeks to months longer.
Both of them were steadily morphined to death. My father was acclimated to the morphine twilight over the course of a week, then directly terminated with a stab in the arm at 9am on a Friday when the last family member arrived at his bedside.
My mother was given steadily increasing dosages of morphine because she had trouble breathing due to congestive heart failure. The morphine was to reduce her distress and it actually helped her breathe…until it didn’t. My mother’s case is probably justifiable relief that had the double effect of slowly killing her.

My dad was plainly euthanised by hospice staff. This was likely his directive to avoid suffering for another few months. But was definitely hard to watch. I didn’t know if I should call the police or say a prayer.
 
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spoonerc said:
They may sedate them, but they cannot sedate the soul. It is still screaming, a sound those doctors (if they do not repent of their evil) will hear throughout eternity in the bowels of hell.
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Well, as the perpetrator of my child’s abortion, I can testify that anyone with a conscience can hear that voice in this life. That’s the flip side of the joy of coming to Christ. Christ hears the voices of those victims, and if you want to know Christ there is a path to walk by coming to know those who are harmed.
 
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goout said:
At many hospices we have a soft euthanasia going on that is difficult to pin down morally. Both of my parents died of morphine overdose. I watched it happen.
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These are some very serious claims. If you don’t mind answering, what was the dosage of morphine your parents received? I’m rather familiar with end-of-life morphine use, in the U.S. at least, and I might be able to provide some idea of what was going on if you’re open to it.

Peace and God bless!
 
This is disturbing. Euthanasia is legal in Melbourne in my country as well but only for terminally ill patients.

What I am finding even more disturbing than the non-agreed upon sedation mentioned, is that the article is referring to patients with Dementia. So who is making the Euthanasia decision?!
Is it that the patient is cognitive enough to make their own decisions, or is it rather that family members or a doctor is making the decision?
If it is not the patient…I don’t call this voluntary Euthanasia…I call this something else.

From the article:
“Despite the sedative, the woman attempted to jerk away from the lethal drugs, and was held down by her son-in-law.”

Omg. This is not voluntary euthanasia- this is murder.

Even for people that agree with euthanasia, how can they guarantee safeguards?
How can it guarantee that it will not become a substitute for looking after our elders in society?

I am Croatian background and our elderly are not seen as “extended family”. They are one with the main family, and held as important as any children are. Our elderly parents and grandparents have a wealth of wisdom and we should honour and respect them. Sadly in western countries many have gone down the route of devaluing our elderly, outsourcing them to nursing homes, thinking they are not valuable as they no longer contribute to the economy, or “nuclear family” takes priority over any elders and elders sicknesses.

And it is not always families “fault”. Medical professionals from aged care industries have often become so arrogant and over involved in the decision making of our elders that they act as in “my way or the highway”, arrogantly stating that they know what is best for elderly people, like as if our elders are “incompetent children”, even acting like as if they are property in some cases. When families resist, sometime there are consequences. Like what happened in England when a 97 year old woman with Dementia was arrested when her nurse daughter tried removing her mum from a care home.

Since when has it become acceptable for health care professionals to “own” our elders, and decide if they should live or die, or where they should live like as they are prisoners?


Also, even when it is an elderly’s own decision, how voluntary is voluntary euthanasia really if they are making that decision not for their own reasons, but rather from compulsion due to feeling that they are a burden on their family or on society?

Or if they are making that choice purely as it seems like a more preferable option that living a miserable existence in a nursing home?

How about we fix our self-absorbed societies, instead of “killing people off”? 😡

(I am aware that sometimes nursing home is the only option, and that there are some kind ones, but I am making a general point).
 
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This sounds awful. I am trying not to jump to conclusions so do you know why they wanted to withhold food and water? I.e., was it from concern for their parents suffering, or was it self-motivated?
I can only hope that it was the first option.
 
I dont want to get into too many details because HIPAA, etc, but this marriage was hella dysfunctional and the kiddos were repeating the pattern.

But it’s a change I’ve seen over the years—when I first started in nursing, we had families who wanted to do all sorts of resuscitation and high tech interventions to keep their extreme elderly parents alive because they couldn’t bear to lose them.

Now they’re like “well, I only have a certain amount of days off for this, and besides, we were planning to go on that cruise next month, and I’m sure Mom doesn’t want to live like this anyway, what can we do?”
 
Ghosty1981 said:
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goout:
At many hospices we have a soft euthanasia going on that is difficult to pin down morally. Both of my parents died of morphine overdose. I watched it happen.
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These are some very serious claims. If you don’t mind answering, what was the dosage of morphine your parents received? I’m rather familiar with end-of-life morphine use, in the U.S. at least, and I might be able to provide some idea of what was going on if you’re open to it.

Peace and God bless!
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I can’t really tell you the dosage. My fathers last dose was a stick in the arm which cause him to die
fairly rapidly. But I don’t know the dosage. Mom’s dosage was steadily increased. I knew the amounts at that time but can’t remember what they were.

In any event, I spoke with two Catholic doctors after my Mom passed and they helped me to understand the ethical considerations. My Mom’s morphine was to help her breathe peacefully without the agitation that suffocating brings. Side effect was…the morphine stopped her breathing. At 93 her heart could have also stopped beating. But she did not want the morphine and was terrified of it. The hospice staff basically insisted and my sister agreed. Mom’s situation was not as controversial in my mind.

Dad’s was definitely a lethal dose on the spot. He had bladder cancer that had spread to the bones, and the doctor gave him 6 months to maybe two years.

He flew home on a Saturday, walked through the airport, car ride home, walked into the house. Met with hospice on Monday morning. They took him to the unit later that day. . , and they began to give him morphine. And he was gone that Friday. Less than a week. I believe that was his choice because he hated suffering. He was not a pious Catholic in that regard. He was dying and he knew it, and I believe he probably told them to gracefully help him out when we could all be there.

My point is not to accuse hospice in any particular circumstance. I am just noting that hospices can be, in my opinion, very close to the line at euthanasia.
 
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That’s horrible. If the patient don’t want morphine, any pain killer or a treatment and doctors insited and the family agree. And this drug’s side effect come as death… Well, that’s unethical and …
 
When hospice care was first established as palliative care for terminally ill patients, I thought it was a good idea. Now I worry that it is becoming too close to being a medical termination center rather than palliative care.
 
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