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Dutch Government Will Not Mandate Masks, Says ‘No Proven Effectiveness’
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C
Cathoholic
Guest
“There is no proven effectiveness of masks…” . . .
. . . the country’s National Institute for Health (RIVM) showed that social distancing rules prove more effective at combatting the virus than masks. . . .
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F_Marturana
Guest
Those who think masks are not effective , next time you have a dental appointment is it ok if your dentist doesn’t wear one?
R
Regular_Atheist
Guest
Yeah, I don’t really see how someone can say they don’t do anything, unless that person also believes that coughing and sneezing into a tissue does nothing. Seems like common sense that covering your mouth and nose reduces the spread of disease.
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PaulinVA
Guest
@Cathoholic , this is misleading. Apparently many hospitals did use Hydroxychloroquine on all patients. Where do you think he US studies came from?
So, with limited to moderate use of HCQ, the US is over on the red side.
So, with limited to moderate use of HCQ, the US is over on the red side.
C
Cathoholic
Guest
PaulinVA . . .
There were even studies published but they were harpooned for being front-line (although they wouldn’t put it that way).
They said that they were not medical center studies that had peer review, randomization, etc.
They were called “anecdotal”.
Of course these gripes were true.
But the answer is to do randomized propsective double blind long-term studies on the correct cohorts.
None of this has been done. At least adequately.
The criticizers have been fighting real and relevant hydroxychloroquine studies (even as they say they support them) every step of the way.
I understand several hydroxychloroquine studies were terminated based upon the (now known to be phony) articles in the Lancet and the NEJM.
It is obvious the institutional left, does NOT WANT it studied. (And they don’t want it being used off-label either as the word will continue to spread about significntly reduced death rates associated with hydroxychloroquine thereby reducing the misery index, and minimizing the demand for new less-effective (but patentable and thus exceedingly profitable) meds and rushed vaccines.
This is WHY we saw the unprecedented move in Ohio
by pols and bureaucrats to force GOVERNMENT patient decision-making
against phycisians and against their patients
regarding off-label use of already-approved hydroxychloroquine.
Fortunately this foolishness was overturned in a matter of hours.
Yet the countries who have acted upon this and are using hydroxychloroquine frequently on the front line, are having substatially lowered death rates.
While people interested in science and patients have continually been pointing this out, opposers keep coming back to “Trump” and the desire to use new drugs that they can secure patent$ on.
Some of the people carping about hydroxychloroquine, have almost certainly been on hydroxychloroquine or cousins of that for THEMSELVES like Chris Cuomo’s wife admitted Chris Cuomo was on.
And a lot of people are seeing right through these shenanigans.
The reason the hospitals were using it was based upon front-line physicians using this in France and China.Apparently many hospitals did use Hydroxychloroquine on all patients. Where do you think he US studies came from?
There were even studies published but they were harpooned for being front-line (although they wouldn’t put it that way).
They said that they were not medical center studies that had peer review, randomization, etc.
They were called “anecdotal”.
Of course these gripes were true.
But the answer is to do randomized propsective double blind long-term studies on the correct cohorts.
None of this has been done. At least adequately.
The criticizers have been fighting real and relevant hydroxychloroquine studies (even as they say they support them) every step of the way.
I understand several hydroxychloroquine studies were terminated based upon the (now known to be phony) articles in the Lancet and the NEJM.
It is obvious the institutional left, does NOT WANT it studied. (And they don’t want it being used off-label either as the word will continue to spread about significntly reduced death rates associated with hydroxychloroquine thereby reducing the misery index, and minimizing the demand for new less-effective (but patentable and thus exceedingly profitable) meds and rushed vaccines.
This is WHY we saw the unprecedented move in Ohio
by pols and bureaucrats to force GOVERNMENT patient decision-making
against phycisians and against their patients
regarding off-label use of already-approved hydroxychloroquine.
Fortunately this foolishness was overturned in a matter of hours.
Yet the countries who have acted upon this and are using hydroxychloroquine frequently on the front line, are having substatially lowered death rates.
While people interested in science and patients have continually been pointing this out, opposers keep coming back to “Trump” and the desire to use new drugs that they can secure patent$ on.
Some of the people carping about hydroxychloroquine, have almost certainly been on hydroxychloroquine or cousins of that for THEMSELVES like Chris Cuomo’s wife admitted Chris Cuomo was on.
And a lot of people are seeing right through these shenanigans.
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V
Victoria33
Guest
I will wear mine if required or for precautionary reasons… they have been doing it in Asia now for a number of years… but I have seen some masks with a disclaimer on them that it will not keep viruses out. Not necessarily but I will certainly use them. I believe our church requires them now…along with being mapped out for social distancing.
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Zzyzx_Road
Guest
Surgical masks and similar have never been certified for preventing influenza viruses from getting into one’s respiratory system. What makes people think these style masks can keep coronaviruses out?
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PaulinVA
Guest
Actually, I misread the chart. The US is in the middle, yellow section. It’s the UK on the left end.The reason the hospitals were using it was based upon front-line physicians using this in France and China.
There were even studies published but they were harpooned for being front-line (although they wouldn’t put it that way).
Anyway, yes, studies are needed. I really don’t care if it’s a good or bad treatment. Let’s just find out and get something definitive, which we don’t have right now.
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ProVobis
Guest
You’re welcome to try it on baseball teams. Miami and St Louis need to play.It is obvious the institutional left, does NOT WANT it studied.
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Pattylt
Guest
Why are you bringing in this data on a thread about masks? You’ve often criticized others for changing the discussion yet, here you are doing so, too.
Let’s discuss the data about masks, please.
Various mask materials have been studied and rated for their effectiveness in blocking virus particle sizes. Some are definitely more effective than others.
What settled the mask question for me was the case of two beauticians that were Covid positive and saw 194 clients. The two wore masks and none of the clients became Covid positive as a result. Anecdotal? Yes! But reassuring nonetheless.
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Gyro
Guest
Masks are a secular superstition.
If you are a tiny covid protein, a face mask looks like a chain link fence. Plus, masks become petrie dishes for nice moist germs to settle onto which we repeatedly breath in - and out of - to the detriment of ourselves and others. Those who wear them “religiously” may feel that, by doing so, they are somehow safe and marvelously virtuous, while those who don’t are ignorant and exhibiting a severe moral failure. They claim “science” to be on their side. But any scientific evidence that is contrary to this opinion (and there is plenty) is considered in grievous error. But, knock on wood, I’m OK. I ain’t a’skeered! Oh no! I’m wearing my mask 'cause it’s the “right thing to do (and maybe, just maybe, I’ll survive… I hope, I hope…”).
Folks, we’ve become a frightened and intimidated nation of hall monitors: “Teacher, teacher! He’s not wearing a mask!”
I ain’t buying it anymore. I say, be not afraid. I suggest that we have to get over our fine selves. The spread of this disease is in the Lord’s hands, not ours, and death is the common and ultimate end of all living things - and that includes all of us mask or no mask. It’s out of our control. As for me and my family, we will trust in the Lord. The rest can trust in science.
If you are a tiny covid protein, a face mask looks like a chain link fence. Plus, masks become petrie dishes for nice moist germs to settle onto which we repeatedly breath in - and out of - to the detriment of ourselves and others. Those who wear them “religiously” may feel that, by doing so, they are somehow safe and marvelously virtuous, while those who don’t are ignorant and exhibiting a severe moral failure. They claim “science” to be on their side. But any scientific evidence that is contrary to this opinion (and there is plenty) is considered in grievous error. But, knock on wood, I’m OK. I ain’t a’skeered! Oh no! I’m wearing my mask 'cause it’s the “right thing to do (and maybe, just maybe, I’ll survive… I hope, I hope…”).
Folks, we’ve become a frightened and intimidated nation of hall monitors: “Teacher, teacher! He’s not wearing a mask!”
I ain’t buying it anymore. I say, be not afraid. I suggest that we have to get over our fine selves. The spread of this disease is in the Lord’s hands, not ours, and death is the common and ultimate end of all living things - and that includes all of us mask or no mask. It’s out of our control. As for me and my family, we will trust in the Lord. The rest can trust in science.
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Pattylt
Guest
The Lord also gave us brains and scientists, did He not? No one is claiming masks completely prevent the spread of Covid. It helps. In varying degrees depending on material used and proper wearing. Seat belts don’t prevent people being killed in car accidents but we know they help! Would someone not wearing a sear belt and depending on the Lord to protect be wise?As for me and my family, we will trust in the Lord. The rest can trust in science.
I get it. I really do. You don’t like them. You think they aren’t needed. The science needs to get its act together too. We need to study the real effectiveness of wearing them and public service announcements on how to wear them, remove them and care for them is sorely needed. Until then? I think it’s wise to wear them until they are actually proven to NOT help…and I don’t think that a proper scientific study will find them useless.
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ProVobis
Guest
Yes but it requires some media such as water to travel, no? Alone, it doesn’t survive very long. Its survival depends on the surface. It attaches and replicates mostly on human cells. At least that’s what I’ve concluded.If you are a tiny covid protein, a face mask looks like a chain link fence.
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Gyro
Guest
So those who oppose the wearing of masks are lacking in brains? And scientists (God love them all) will come up with a solution to this plague?The Lord also gave us brains and scientists, did He not? No one is claiming masks completely prevent the spread of Covid. It helps . In varying degrees depending on material used and proper wearing.
The first premise is both insulting and unfounded. The second is willfully trusting in sheer luck. Maybe science will get it right - but maybe it won’t. We’re investing a heck of Faith in science. But it’s a crap-shoot: “c’mon seven, come eleven, baby needs a new pair of shoes!” Like I said, it’s a secular superstition.
Comparing face masks to seat belts suggests to me that there is a correlation between running down the road at 60-plus mph unbelted on a collision course with another vehicle and walking through Wall-Mart. I don’t think so.
I understand that Corona is a pesky little pest. But the notion that somehow it’s “everywhere - everywhere I tell you!” is more than a little dramatic. The number of deaths directly related to COVID are a bit less than astounding (and the numbers currently being given are not to be trusted, because the folks reporting them don’t seem to be able to separate those who’ve died WITH Corona Virus from those who died FROM Corona Virus). Comparisons with various forms of the Flu over time or SARS are actually apropos - with SARS and the Flu being far more lethal. But the Corona is, well, novel. Therefore, for some reason, we must fear it more - to the extent that we close down our economy by a third, disemploy hundreds of thousands of Americans, close our schools, our airports, our restaurants, our beauty shops, our florists, our everyday retailers, and stop the progress of normal life (or at least put it on a very long and indeterminate pause), to allow our governments to crush freedom of assembly, free and open worship, and an open market. Our very future is at risk because of a bug.
This constitutes one heck of a problem for free thinking people. And it’s not like people are clattering down our streets every morning crying “bring out your dead.” No. Instead it’s become an hour-by-hour, minute-by minute fear mongering cry by the press and government to control our people “for their own good.” I can’t abide it any more. It’s nonsense. But, go ahead, wear your mask. Buy the lie. Live in fear.
But for me, it’s time to say “no mas.”
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Gyro
Guest
I understand the scientific process. I just don’t worship it. It’s like Phrenology. Misguided and often just plain wrong. It may solve all our problems - or not.
C
Cathoholic
Guest
PattyIt . . . .
Because someone said South Korea was doing something that the U.S. was not doing.
And they implicitly suggested that it was the masks saving lives (despite no evidence of that) in South Korea over the USA.
And so I pointed out there are OTHER things than masks that South Korea is doing different than the USA too.
One obvious example that South Korea is doing different than the U.S. is the more prolific use of hydroxychloroquine.
This is significant. Especially considering there is no evidence (retrospective, prospective, or otherwise) that masks save lives.
But there is evidence (admittedly not double-blinded, etc.) that hydroxychloroquine saves lives if instituted appropriately in corona virus infection.
Didn’t you read the thread? I thought that was self-evident.
(The reason I criticize others for changing the thread is because we can have a thread about which type of coconuts tastes better, and the usual suspects will incorporate you-know-who into the thread.
Always.
And it is irrelevant. And the incessant obsession with you-know-who is a distraction.
If it was only occasionally, I would ignore it, but we all know it is not “occasionally”.)
I was not changing the discussion.Why are you bringing in this data on a thread about masks? You’ve often criticized others for changing the discussion yet, here you are doing so, too.
Because someone said South Korea was doing something that the U.S. was not doing.
And they implicitly suggested that it was the masks saving lives (despite no evidence of that) in South Korea over the USA.
And so I pointed out there are OTHER things than masks that South Korea is doing different than the USA too.
One obvious example that South Korea is doing different than the U.S. is the more prolific use of hydroxychloroquine.
This is significant. Especially considering there is no evidence (retrospective, prospective, or otherwise) that masks save lives.
But there is evidence (admittedly not double-blinded, etc.) that hydroxychloroquine saves lives if instituted appropriately in corona virus infection.
Didn’t you read the thread? I thought that was self-evident.
(The reason I criticize others for changing the thread is because we can have a thread about which type of coconuts tastes better, and the usual suspects will incorporate you-know-who into the thread.
Always.
And it is irrelevant. And the incessant obsession with you-know-who is a distraction.
If it was only occasionally, I would ignore it, but we all know it is not “occasionally”.)
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C
Cathoholic
Guest
Sloancaprice . . .
Look also at what South Korea is DOING.
They are one of the most liberally using hydroxychloroquine countries despite some “authorities” from South Korea saying it doesn’t help. Look at the graphic. Here it is again.
It is self-evident.
That is a recomendation of an ivory tower group (“Korean health authorities”). Not “South Korea”.South Korea doesn’t think HCQ helps.
Look also at what South Korea is DOING.
They are one of the most liberally using hydroxychloroquine countries despite some “authorities” from South Korea saying it doesn’t help. Look at the graphic. Here it is again.
It is self-evident.
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C
Cathoholic
Guest
It is not meaningless.
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