Early Christian Writings Question

[juliamajor]

Dear Sambos671!

  Wow! You say it sounds like I am a little angry.......I never thought of it that way, not now......at one time I was very angry.  Years ago before I fell in love with Jesus! and that transformation changed my life, .... Your credentials on the upbringing in the catholic church I can relate!  I too went to a catholic school and I actually DID hang out with the sisters.  I spent several days a week with them, helping them, having a blast with them, learning scripture at a young age. Until I met my husband I had every intention of becoming a sister. Education? I am a devoted scripture teacher.....and I do not take everyones opinions as my own about the word of God. I allow the word to speak to me when I study, by the way with several translations, a hebrew text and a dictionary of Greek and hebrew words.
 Why do you think there are so many denominations?  People didnt like or agree with a certain aspect of scripture or doctrine! yes you are correct in the fact that i am seeking Truth.....Gods.  I found that In Jesus!  I love the catholic church and at the same time I am confused by it.  i long to go and sit in the church the way I did when I was young. I felt the peace of God so strongly and I never wanted to leave that place.  I DID see a lot of abuse within the church, mostly in the way I saw my catholic christian family live, like uncles and cousins.  alcoholism, gambling and other things that the church contributes to.  I dont need to be a theologion to figure that out!(scripture is sepcific about drunkenness) 
 I have pursued several avenues of education in my life. BY the way I am a mother and grandmother.  Though you may have more knowledge in the catholic doctrine, or so it appears,  that is I have lost touch of much of it. but I am relearning....... I believe I am on target about some of what I have said.  Please know I am no longer angry .....just highly disappointed in what has happened to the church. However I am aware that there are many charismatic catholics!  Actually I had a specific number written down however I am not quoting it because i dont know off hand.  It is large.  I do beleive that the church as we know it is changing forever......and knowing Jesus and believing what He has said is all that matters.  So though you sound rather aggravated with me......I have taken down in notes , what you have said.  Thank you for your honesty.....patience?  Oh my have I got patience.......to be able to take correction and teaching like you seem to be able to give requires much patience from the listener!!!  I am a  mature christina therefore i can take correction and actually desire it when it is necessary. I want to know only the truth!  God's!
   Catholic catechism, I have also begun to learn again.  Its amazing how much I have been able to recall.  Thanks again and I will study what you have suggested.  Food for thoguht....It is really most difficult to know what to read, remember they are all wirtten by men, some of stature and some not.....so are your quotes anymore accurate that what I am saying?  dont you think that is a good question?  Who has the correct interpretation? what I know.....I have put to practice what I have learned in scripture and my life has changed dramatically for the better! whole, healed and knowing my purpose in life.....the life he has for me.  Isnt that what Jesus said about fruit or letting our light shine? Putting to practcie what He says>  actually didnt He say His disciples were those who keep His word?  Thanks again and God bless you for your honesty and your wisdom.....Look forward to your teaching......

Deborah

I’M NOT ANGRY-JUST CRANKY!! As far a the correct interpretation of scripture- I have to go with the church with the ldirect link to the apostlesCatholic_east and West, Nobody else can claim this. As far as the interpretation in Protestant church -seems like each individual pastor has his own individual interpretation.Watched TBN once saw two preachers at different times at two different churches discussing the same scripture. I found it fascinating that their individual interpretation was so completely different as to be utterly confusing. Ok so which interpretation was right? Why couldn’t everyone interpret to his satisfaction?and if you all interpret differently why go to a church anyway? wouldn’t each person be a church to himself? Am I impatient- yes- should I be more patient-YES.One of my most severe shortcomings.Am I perfect-no .AmI close NO! But I keep strivingAm I happy all the time -No am I happier and different then I was before the baptism of the holy spirit? OH yes-so much that people can date it. The Eucharist as healing? I don’t know it you mean physically or spiritually? Physically-we’ve put the Eucharist out during healing services snd I see a difference when we do-it’s subtle but it’s there. Spiritually it is more profound when you see spmeone in Eucharistic Adoration- how there body seems to change and a lok of peace comes over them. I have the prvilege of being a Eucharistic minister- and as I distrbute the host i see all kinds of things on peoples faces. I see some who get up for communion because the think the have to, others because the feel that it is the right thing to do. Then you get the people who are hungry and yearning for Christ to be a physical part of them.To be one with the Lord united.I see them in their sadness and their joy and their pain and I think how honored I am to be doing this and how privileged I am in giving this sacrament that heals,that anoints,that shows surpassing love to God’s creatures.It may defy physics or logic or common sense to believe what we believe but God’s Wisdom and Love can confound the knowledge of Men.That has been shown so many times.

 

[deborahssong]

Amen! Juliamajor?

  Yes it appears that every one has an interpretation of their own however this is the MAIN reasonI have pursued a biblical study course in Hebrew, since the ORIGINAL text was that.  Plus I use several study tools or books  when I study Gods word.  However saying that..........the bible has been used by the uneducated and edcuated alike.  I believe His word is for all people everyhwre, every tribe and nation, when their spirits are open to TRUTH!  Scripture is clear about WHO blinds us to the truth!
   Saying that I too am on a spiritual quest like none I have ever been before.  My husband and I were very active members of a strong chruch, filled with a vision for God.......we were leaders and we experienced one of the worst splits I have ever seen. It was awful and grieving.  since then we have help to launch several ministries, however we do not have a church home yet. why? The past ones we have visited it is the same issue over and over.....lots of talk and no action!  Talk of wanting to reach out in the community and yet nothing is happening. Too many chiefs and not enough indians!  Just boggles my heart!  Perfection is who we are and the word and God says so.  Jesus said to desire perfection.........we have been given the ability to repent and be forgiven, when we mess up, truly repent and yes forgiven!  There is no reason for a christian to stay in sin....for He became sin for us, He carried ours so we could be reconciled with the Lord!  That is perfection...hebrew meaning is set apart, or holy, we are because He is and He lives in us!  It is not me but He who lives within me that makes me who I am.......
     On that note I am on a journey about the catholic church. Sambos671 gave me some great advice, to go and read the wiritngs of the early fathers..... ( which I had been doing) they have the answer and the church isn't suppose to change that doctrine.....the doctrine of Jesus Christ. and by the way He(Jesus) said that He and His father are one and He does what His Father says to do......hmmmmmm shouldnt we do the same?   Amen!!!  all I iknow is that in every church there are the faces as you see as a Eucharistic minister. I have seen that as a prayer minister!  However as that I got the people involved in the prayer ministry and I saw great changes take place with the people!  It is called being obedient to His word and his call. As leaders we must step up and tell people what we are to do and then live it!
    I know for a fact that people have been healed when they receive the Eucharist, I have seen the testimonies.  It has been awesome.....my dad just said and he was quoting Jesus Himself......If ONLY YOU BELIEVE!  Jesus came so that we might have life and have it MORE abundantly!  That is the direction I want to go in how about you?  God Bless and shalom( Gods peace...nothing missing nothing broken....)

Debbie

 

[sambos671]

Ok deborahsong here is what I’ve found out on the Eucharist. One of the major and significant difference between the Catholic view and the protestant view of communion lies in the Eucharist. Protestants are for the most part straight forward. The Lutherans believe that the Eucharist contains the Body of Christ but isnot thebody of Christ. Luther didn’t really want to be seperate from the Catholic Church, however, his teachings were not countenanced by it either so he was excluded from fellowship (Excomunicated). For the most part Protestants (and for awhile myself) believe that the bread and the wine (grape juice for most) are symbols representing the breaking of Jesus body and the pouring out of his blood. Interesting in the Passover (sader) three Matzahs are placed in the bag with the middle one broken in half. However, the communion elements are not changed in substanced at all. The Catholic Church believes the Eucharist is none other than the actualbody and blood of Jesus (Yeshua) the Christ (Ha Mashiach or Annointed One). Transubstantiation. So, my investigation was to discover the truth of the matter. Keep in mind the other ancient christian church (Orthodox whether you call them eastern, Russian, or Greek) believe similarily though not quite exactly. Catholics and Orthodox have the longevity argument. Protestant reply to this is that the disciples of Jesus did not believe this and some time after this the teaching was corrupt to include a mystical changing of the elements. My question is: when did this happen? As I read history and christian writings I found myself going further and further back. Finally, I thought why don’t I just jump back to the begining? With Jesus himself and the apostles. The only problem with that is that the credible apostolic writings are already in the New Testiment and there are tons of disagreement over what they said and meant. So whats next? The people the disciples taught! I went to read some of the ealiest christian literature outside of the New Testiment.
Let me start with scripture of the New Testiment that was problematic for my protestant beliefs and then move on to the statement of the Early Church Fathers. To believe that Jesus only meant that the elements of communion were symbols hit a snag with this verse: John 6:53-59 and 66. “Jesus said to them,‘I tell you the truth, Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father , so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. This is the Bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna (what is it? direct translation) and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever.’ He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernium” “From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him” Why would the disciples leave Jesus? Most protestants would say that they misunderstood Jesus symbolic meaning as him perpetrating canabalism. However, since the communion is just symbolic don’t you think Jesus would have expressed that to them. Instead he says in verse 67 “You do not want to leave me to, do you?” Jesus doesn’t make his statement more palatable. He questions if his disciples will accept it. Jesus seems very clear here about his teaching. I believe those who left understood exactly what Jesus was saying! Another New Testiment verse that is 1 Cor 11:27-30 "Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgement on himself. That is why many amoung you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep." If the elements were just symbols why are they dieing. On principle? Or because, as the text suggest they’ve sinned agains the body and blood of Jesus. Most protestants would emphasize the verses just before and say “but Jesus said in ‘rememberance of me’” They rarely move on to the next verses. Here I would like to point out some other points. First, I’ve quoted from the NIV (New International Version).

 

[sambos671]

(I had to make this on two postings)

Second, the Old Testiment has some interesting insites into this matter. Such as Exodus 25:30 The show bread in the tabernacle is also known as the bread of the presence. And again Exodus 24:9-11 "Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and the seventy elders of Isreal went up and saw the God of Isreal. Under his feet was something like pavement of sapphire, clear as the sky itself. But, God did not raise his hand against these leaders of the Israelites; they saw God, and they ate and drank" The Leaders of Isreal ate and drank in the presence of God himself. Eusibius would state that it would have been in the presence of Jesus manifested before his birth (Christophony). I think these are pretty good examples beside what Jesus himself said during the last supper of the presence in the Eucharist.
Now the Early Church Fathers statement. Ignatius was the third bishop of Antioch during the reign of the Roman emperor Trajan 98-117 Anno Domini (Year of our Lord). Ignatius would have know some of the apostles personally. He too was condemned and on his way to Rome he wrote several letters. Particularily to my argument here is his letter to the Smyrneans where he says: “They even absent themselves from the Eucharist and the public prayers, because they will not admit that the Eucharist is the self-same body of our Savior Jesus Christ which suffered for our sins, and which the Father in His goodness afterwards raised up again.” I find that pretty plain. Ignatius believed in the presence of Jesus Christ in the elements of the Eucharist. I find it unlikely that the Apostles taught something different to the leaders of the churches they founded. In fact, for protestant theory to hold the immediate disciples of the Apostles had to change doctrine during a time when a few Apostles were still alive. How likely is that. We would have a letter from Peter, John, or some other that would have been added to the New Testiment saying “No Jesus said it was a symbol” There is nothing like that ever referred to in any writing! The Eucharist being the actual body and blood of Jesus was taught by the Apostles and therefore Jesus himself! The next Father of note (in my studies) is Justin Martyr. In Justin Martyrs First Apology to the emperor Titus Aelius Hadrianus Antoninus Pius Augustus he says the following: “This food we call Eucharist, of which no one is allowed to partake except one who believes that the things we teach are true, and has received the washing for the forgiveness of sins and for rebirth, and who lives as Christ handed down to us (through the apostles). For we do not receive these things as common bread or common drink; but as Jesus Christ our Savior being incarnate by God’s word took flesh and blood for our salvation, so also we have been taught that the food consecrated by the word of prayer which comes from him, from which our flesh and blood are nourished by transformation, is the flesh and blood of that incarnate Jesus. For the apostles in the memoirs composed by them which are called gospels (good news), thus handed down what was commanded them.” Justin is said to have lived between 100-165 AD. Far too close to origin of the apostolic teaching to have been change much. So, my studies show me that on the subject of communion and the Eucharist the Catholic church is correct. I hope this helps out.

 

[deborahssong]

Hi Sambos671,

     I am so moved by what you have written and I did know some of that already   as far as the refernce to the scripture of 1Cor11:27-30.  In that time period, according to my theology teacher, the corinthian church was very heathenistic. They were drinking the wine as if it were drink and they were eating the communion as if it were food.  If you see Paul's next referece to this is in vs 33. Now my take on that is this.  They were dying yes, because of the abuse of the sacrement of communion, or the Eucharist.  It was disrespectful to the presenceof God and what Jesus taught about the process. Period.
I must tell you that I have read the Didache, and I as I told you i have been studying the early writings of the church........so I picked it up again.  Right now my conclusion?  the catholic church is still in error about what some teach.  Those apostles stayed right with scripture on most things. actually I told my husband today, when did the church lose its seriousness about the way in which we are to live? when?  I trully believe that it would do the church good to teach over to every individual the catholic beliefs, or the catholic doctrine, which by the way from what I am reading lines up with scripture.  There are two paths we can choose.......Jesus said choose life!  The early fathers explained what that was........and then they also explained what death is.  Not choosing to live for Jesus!
   I am reading a book called "Born Fundamentalist....Born Again Catholic, written by David b Currie.  It is so enlightening. And he explains so plainly what the church beleives about diferent issues that we protestants do not understand.  As I read these last night I thought, it makes sense.....it really makes sense.  However what the vatican believes and adheres to in doctrine is not what some of the churches are teaching! My sister is very active in a catholic church and she has called them on several issues that she knows the church doesnt condone.  I have another friend whose son is claiming homosexuality.  he said and I quote... the reason he is attending a catholic church is that they accept his lifestyle and he is allowed to teach and he is a leader in the church!  Now I looked at her and said, I am not sure who he is listening to, but I just heard a teaching from a priest from the vatican and they are not in favor of sin. and they do beleive that it is a sin!  that is scripture and you cannot deny that.

I also heard another one about being a drunk…that it is ok to be a drunk in the catholic church(scripture says otherwise) and the girl actually said this to me…my mom left the protestant church and joined the catholic church because she loves to drink and gamble and they support this. These were her wrods to me.
These are just a few of the scenerios I have come up against that has challenged me so deeply. A priest friend said to me, I remember him telling me that every church has members who are not where God wants them. he admitted that he felt the church had to do a better job of teaching the gopsel and making everyone accountable for their walk, on the local parish level. he even said in this way the protestant churches have moved far ahead of them. But he beleived that was changing. getting back to the Eucharist…I read the scriptures as I have many times before. why is it that some catholics can beleive that the Eucharist is the body and blood of Jesus yet deny other supernatural acts of God? That is amazing to me! The word says that God is the rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. I beleive the rewards in one way are the revelations we will receive by doing so.
You have been such a tremendous help and I am still studying early church writings again. Those first disciples were so serious about their love for Jesus and my goodness, were strict about that. Paul explains how to handle church discipline and if we dont deal with it, the sin from within will corrupt the body and that is what HE said. Because Jesus said so. anyone who lives like death will never see heaven…therefore isnt it ok to be teaching what the early fathers knew and taught? At some point we have to clean up this body of Christ! Oh I know there are wonderful things happening as well within! However I am so grieved when I see people who claim to know Jesus living like the devil! Accoridng to the early fathers they are walking in death! and Jesus said the same thing!
You are right sambos671, about making sure we read everything about the early fathers. I have already seen much and it is truth according to God s word. There is a lot of garbage out there about the catholic chuch that isnt so, and some of it comes from within some of its own churches. . Does the church teach that> they should because that is scripture.
Geez sorry i got so sidetracked but I am studying so much right now…and I am so glad that I am. Marcus Grody with the program Journey Home or Coming Home said so much about all I have written. The issues that I have most protestants have. Here is what i will close this with…I lived as a catholic for most of my young adult life…with a small amount of spiritual progress…in 1984 I had an encounter with Jesus that totally transformed my lfie and i have never been the same…and here I am being drawn in my spirit to he catholic church…what does this mean to you my dear brother in Christ?..God Bless and keep writing as I am learning a great deal…and hope you are to. shalom!

Debbie

 

[sambos671]

I agree with you about nonsense coming from within its own membership. Like my brother for instance who believes its ok to sin like the devil on friday then say confession on saturday and be ok to take communion on sunday as a mater of habit. His life wasn’t changed. The early fathers lives were and it lead them to righteousness. Many catholics miss out on the life changing knowledge and fellowship of our Lord though its in front of them all the time. According to the letter of James our faith is known to be real by the demonstration of our righteous life style. “faith without works is dead.” Many Catholics thing spirituality should stay with the clergy. However, I believe that there is a change emerging that more and more are seeking a close walk with the Lord. Note that Justin Martyr mentioned baptism of rebirth. They were born again and lived like it. That has always been my struggle with the Catholic church. I’ve made the statements here general and reflective of my experience. Again there are many catholics who live their faith in righteousness but few of those have crossed my path. Regardless of this though. Truth is truth. I’m still studying too.

In the mean time
“may the Lord bless you and keep you and make his face to shine upon you.”

 

[deborahssong]

Greetings sambos671!

  I agree with what you just said totally!  What I am amazed at is why doesnt the church get on board and make sure their churches KNOW these things all over again!  A renewal per say for that church!  A renewing of the truth........and using the Didache and th early fathers writings to set this asail!  Can you tell that I have been on the pastors staff before?  I just think we sit by and allow to much to stand  as it is.....instead of doing something about it.  we are accountabl for what we know and scripture tells us that if we arent sharing what we know we are at fault!  
  How can believers get free from the junk from within if those of us who know,,,, never tell them how?  amen!!!?  I agree that it is lack of educating themselves with what they follow as believers. Many christians just want to be told without ever checking out the sources themselves.  This is where I believe the church in general has missed the boat.  This monring at 5 am I was wide awake and went to my scripture study.  I had previously marked 2peter so i started there.  Oh my goodness. After finishing the Didache this weekend and studying some commentaries on it, then reading some of the early fathers wriitngs, then studying 2 peter?  I am so wowed by what I read!  Peter's letter was to the church, not to anyone else, but to the church.  He warned of false doctrine coming from false teachers. he spoke of the gospel being the only doctirne to follow!  Then I read 1,2,and 3 John.  Again he was commincating only to the church.  The warnings of which he spoke? all exist in some fashion inside the catholic church as well as some of the protestant churches.  
  Accoridng to John and peter and yes Barnabas, the church has become to liberal!  uhhhhh like the world in which John tell us to not follow or love!  How have we missed this Sambos671 how?  I can tell you what I think has happened.  Teachers and leaders who allow anything other than what the church doctrine is suppose to be and it is there for all of us, within the catholic church and outside.  I so understand not allowing ourselves to be swayed and to stay focused and TO LEARN FOR OURSELVES!   we each are responsible for what we know.  Peter said to be prepared in season and out of season to give an account for what you believe......boy have we falied at that.  You know I am sure that God is allowing me this path because I am a doer!  I want so much for other christinas to know  what I am learning and so I am sure I will be used to carry this revelation.  I have seen mysefl in dreams, standing before lots of women in the catholic church teaching all of this........as this has happeend many times in past fifteen years!  I had a newsletter while I was prayer coordinator and I shared some of this.  However my heart is to do more.
 Anyway i am going to keep studying and that is the early writings and the word of God......and they are in sequence with the same message to the church.......get on our faces, repent for lack, and get focused on Jesus the author and finisher of our faith!!!!!  amen?   Have you read the book I mentioned in my last post?  Born Fundamentlaist, Born Again Catholic?  If not you must read. I would like to know what your thoughts are about it!  Thanks and God bless.....

Deborah

 

[DarkMark]

If you interested in the Early Church Fathers writings, the mention books are helpful, but if you want to know what an Early Church Fathers spoke about a particular Scripture Passage, I encourage you to buy the Ancient Christian Commentary Series—>amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw/002-2837477-8052059?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=Ancient+Christian+Commentary&x=0&y=0

I find this series to be very helpful. I love many of the Church Fathers Commentaries and homilies (St. John Chrysostom is the best )

Anyway, buy a book (I will encourage you to buy the commentary on John) and see if you like it.

To sit down on a desk and read what Saint Augustine, Saint Jerome and Saint John Chrysostom has to say about a Scripture is pure joy, to me anyways.

 

[Janet_S]

Greetings,

 I too was raised in the catholic church! Here is how catholic I was........I am a descendant of one of the first catholic families to settle in Kentucky.  Actually called the Holy lands of Ky!  Basil Hayden help to fund that trip and was big in politics and also establishing churches! (my great great great great grandfather)  Now once when i was about ten I had an awesome experience with God, that is I so sensed His presence! However the next encounter I had with Jesus wasnt until I received His work on the cross for my OWN!  I made Him my Lord and savior......I confessed Him and i so wanted to be free in my life!  What an awesome time that was and I am still living that time......I sense Him with me.....and i love Him so much. I have served in leadership in a full gospel church for about 13 years now. Prayer coordinator, youth teacher, hospitality minster,  yet I am drawn right now to the catholic church, not sure yet what that is about. So my search and journey has included the work of the early fathers! I agree with what you have said......and I believe we are entering a time of renewal with the whole body of Christ!  We changed the jewish calender to the gregorian, we changed much of the roots of our faith actually. According to my study Constantine was facinated with pagan worship, the statues he liked and this is why he incorporated that into the church.  I will say this, some o fthe catholic church is built upon paganism......Back from the time of king Nebecunazer?'s wife, the mother of Nimrod, as she claimed herself as the mother of a savior, and he claimed to be that savior.  
  I want so much to know what happen between the first church, book of acts chapter 1-4, and NOW!  Jesus meant for the church to be like the early church. HIs gospel has not changed! We are told in scripture, in Revelation , that anyone who changes the word or adds to it or takes away will be in major trouble!  anyway thank you for your insight and please tell me where you got your info about the church facts that you gave about what Constatine believed!  Thanks again and God Bless you dear brother in Yeshua! enjoy our dialect.

Debbie

A lot of people misunderstand the supposed “pagan” roots of Catholicism.

You should read Acts 17:22-34 for a better understanding. The early Christians didn’t adopt pagan ways; they transformed them. If you go to Rome you will see many pagan temples that were converted into Catholic churches.

Anyway, someone mentioned an article by a Protestant pastor that discussed the pagan roots of Catholicism. You can read it here:
Did the Catholic Church Have Its Origin in Paganism?

A Protestant pastor tells This Rock how he got involved in the issue and how his understanding of the issue has changed.

By Ralph Woodrow
catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0505fea4.asp

It’s wonderful reading both your and Sambos’ posts. Keep reading, praying, and growing in your faith. I hope you both decide to come back to your Catholic roots. We need you.

And one other thing–have either of you (Deborah or Sambos) started praying the “liturgy of the hours?” That’s something you might look into.

 

[Church_Militant]

Here’s an ECF source that you can access online. I have both this and the book and it’s very handy.
plough.com/ebooks/earlychristians.html

BTW, with regard to the Eucharist. I have something you both may find of some interest.The Eucharist IS Scriptural

 

[deborahssong]

To Janet S and church militant,

God Bless you both for your references of help! I have written them down andgone and loked at the links. There is no doubt in my mind that I have latched on to something of grave importance in this search. see my spirit wasnt settled within me. Now please dont get me wrong…I have become a student of the word of God because of my expeirnce with Jesus…however I have remembered so much of late that I learned and sensed as a child. I believe where the catholic church has failed its members is teaching them HOw to walk this out, where to go for help, and correction where correction is due. accountability!
LAst night I read 1and 2 peter and 1,2,3, John. I did this after finishing the Didache and the apology of Justin Marty or the 1st apology? I was so moved in my heart as it all sounded the same…that is in theme and character and message. and yes…it aligns with the gospels! Well of course it should…these men walked with Jesus and then some with the apostles who walked with Jesus! What I am finding in my search is that many catholics do not know what they believe…that is they have taken someones word for it and left it there…never developing their own faith and a personal relationship with Jesus! There is joy in that aspect alone! For the joy ofthe lord IS our strength! I am joyful always for real, that I walk with Jesus! So many christians are sad and yet we are suppose to be reflecting HIs Glory?
When I left the church my heart was so broken by it. Yet that very heartbrake led me right to the arms of Jesus thru a nurse that I worked side by side with. See I beleive the key is to teach catholics what the early church fathers said and of course backed up the gospels of Jesus! There is so much myth and rumors of myths about the church! My visions have been to teach to many women the truth about Jesus making me free! I was freed from so much bondage! and garbage! That message is the gospel message! The early fathers taught of how to live this christian walk and what should be happeneing in the church! Lines up with Jesus’s own words!!! why isnt that being told more? Jesus’s words should be challenging all of us to step up! Paul put it best…mature and grow up? Are we going to continue to be spoon fed? I beleive he meant study the word of God for yourselves, grow up and find out what Jesus is saying to us? We have a path of life as the didache says, and a plan or road of death or path excuse me. Jesus said…choose life!!! So did Moses! That is what my heart grieves about…how will they know if someone doesnt tell them? Pauls words as well.
I desire so much to be used by God and I know that this journey I am on is part of my training for that mission. I have served in leadership and love serving people! I love it as I know that is the call of Jesus…to serve. But I have to be grounded in what I should know and where I should be…and right now…I am not sure about that. My husband and I have been with several churches that spilt and saw much abuse within. So the dysfunctional churches are not just catholic…Revival starts within each of us FIRST! There are healthy churhes and there are sick ones. I have seen more sick than healthy! This ought not be…not according to scripture and the early wriitngs.
Oh my goodness I could write and write about this journey I am on…at this moment I want to run to the church near my parents(catholic) and just sit there…in quite and stillness and just bask in His presence…just like I did when I was 10 yrs old and I remember I never wanted to leave, and became very grieved when I had to! That is where I am at this moment…as my heart hurts for so many who are missing ALL of what God has for them through His SON! I mean my heart grieves!!! there has to be something to all of this…I am obedient and waiiting…Thank you again and please conitnue to advise us as the Holy Spirit leads you…it is for sure most beneficial to me…May the Lord bless you both!

Debbie
(Phil. 4;13)

 

[sambos671]

Deborahssong,
I understand entirely what you are saying. I really didn’t see anyone really living their christian faith until I witnessed protestant missionaries. This isn’t to say it’s not happening in the Catholic Church. I believe the inherent problem with Catholicism is a historical one. In Europe to be European was to be christian. If you weren’t really christian you weren’t really European. People were illiterate and trusted the clergy for all issues relating to their spiritual lives. People became accustom to the “really” spiritual people to become clergy and the laity would go on with their lives no matter how secular. Since they were baptised as christian their salvation was pretty much assured as long as they participated in the sacrements. There rarely was an aha moment where people said I need to know more of God and fellowship with him as a life style. These attitudes carried forward until our day. Now in recent years the Catholic Church has been remeding some of this spiritual malayse in its members but I do not believe it would have happened with out the Reformation. Protestants insist on a personal relationship with the lord which requires study, prayer, and worship. Many catholics get by on ritual (not necissarily bad) with the intent of it or the meaning missed entirely. Unless its a high mass members only expect to spend 45 minutes following time honored traditions and then going about their lives with out being changed. Catholics believe in a personal and corporate relationship through study, prayer, and worship which includes ritual practices. Part of the problem is the Clergy, Priest who became such not necissarily to honor God but for advancement of some sort. This happen more commonly in history than today but these men unfortunately were secular and lead that way. I’m generalizing of course. Protestants have their share of problems but I think the Reformation really brought back personal responsibility for morality and relationship with God to the laity and the Catholic Church is moving more in that direction which is good. Born again (Catholic rebirth) has reemerged with original meaning: An experiance with God should be life changing. Just a few thoughts. I’m not bashing, I’m evaluating the issues I’ve come accross during my time in the Church.

 

[deborahssong]

Amen Sambos671!

Well said.  I really believe the church MUST teach the personal responsibility to all for their relatiosnship withJesus.  From some of what I have read supposedly duirng the dark ages? the catholic church wouldnt allow people to do their own study and didnt they conviscate all bibles? so to deceive the people and have them do whatver they desire do to do. the clergy that is?  I may be off some but beleive you will get my drift of things.  The very reason I went searching back in 1983-84 was to find out if what I had learned all of my life was real. I KNEW there had to be more and I wasnt getting any answers from the priest at that time that I knew ....until I met Father Tom.  A charismatic priest and so on fire for the Lord. I saw him back a few years ago and guess what? He hasnt changed and now he holds healing services or masses!
From where I am sitting presently there is abuse in all denominations and it comes from not KNOWING what the word of God REALLY says and  a poor personal relationship with Jesus!

Before my experince with Jesus i never stduied on my own, as i was taught it wasnt necessary, that father knew all we needed to know. Recetly at a charismatci mass one of the men came up to me ot greet me and we got to tlaking. he is the cahir perosn of rhe renewal here and eh said, you know I loev the study of the word of God and it has actaully broadened what I know about the dcotrien of the cathcolic church. he said we were behind in that knowledge but I believe that is changing rapildy as the vatican is encouraging us to do so. he said now we must pray about how to incorporate the power of the Holy spirit into the mass in general, the way the first church experienced, that is meant for us as well. I was in awe of his statement.
Sambos we are on a journey…did you happen to read the post frrm the lady wishing you and I well and praying that we would return ot the catholic church…that we are needed? Amen…if that be the case…when it happens i KNOW I will not be able to be silent so I am sure God is preparing me for that path! I am a teacher and I cannot keep quite about the truth! how about you? God Bless…BY the way have another question for you…the reformation…did Martin leave the priesthood or was he a monk? I know he was almost killed for what he believed but what actually happened to him?

Deborah

 

[deborahssong]

Sambos and others…I apologize for my atrocious spelling! I get to typing so fast and speedy yes, accurate not always…sorry!

Deborah

 

[sambos671]

He was a priest and a doctor of theology at university. He never chose to leave he was forced out. As far as spelling I’m worse than you. I don’t believe the priesthood initially purposely kept the bible out of peoples hands. However, most people were iliterate and uneducated. Bibles were expensive to copy ( a lot of man hours) and only the clergy (who could read and not everyone of them) and wealthy nobles could even afford to get a copy for themselves. However, there was a point were the clergy determined that the commoner was incapable of understanding scripture due to there lack of education and so kept it from the masses. They also kept close watch on the nobles to prevent heresy. When protestant movemtents began springing up all over Europe (such as the Hugonots) and seperate spurious ideas were being put forth one of the methods to limit the spread was to limit access to the bible. Though this was done through governments primarily and sometimes at the request of the papacy. It’s hard for us to understand now but the church at that time and leaders of government were afraid that going against the church would cause the Kings of Europe to loose a hold of their populace since the King derived his authority from God. The Papcy at that time was a tremendous political power due to events from Pippin, Charlemagne, Otto, and others. They feared national instability and chaos. Very real for them. With the onset of killing for both Catholics and Protestants who could blame them. Some however were very secular and looking for power. Even the Papacy. At one time there were three Popes at the same time disputing over who had the right. Middle ages were something else.

 

[deborahssong]

Sambos671,

Intersting!  I remember studying this but it has been awhile since I had heard anything or studied anything!  It is amazing that so much deceit could take place within...at one time.  There are some horrid stories about some of the popes and their lifestyles!  yet we can see that even in the leadership.....christianity still requires that personl one on one with Jesus....and it deosnt matter who you are and if you do not saty focused on Him and his word and his lifestyle and his will for us?  It woudl be very easy ot get inot a corrupt situation....dont you agree?  God is so merciful and i am so blessed to know Him and to serve Him!  Yet there comes a time of accountabiltiy and we must stand for our account...become mature in the Lord as Paul puts it. there is a itme to stop drinking milk?
Speaking of leaders....do you beleive if Martin Luther were alive today, would he face this serious a stand.....There is corruption still within the body of Christ......and it is not bad when it is revealed.  Some say how horrible and yes the act is horrible but the revealing is necessary to clean up God's house dont you agree?  He still requires Holiness and I actually read that last night in one of the church fathers writings...either Ignatius or Polycarp. to attain holiness.....which means set apart (because of Jesus) and we are, look in either 1 or 2nd Peter for that. A holy people we are.....Thanks and God bless.

Debbie

 

[Janet_S]

The Church is continually in need of reform, and that didn’t start or end with Martin Luther. Many of our Catholic saints worked to reform the Church from within, and many committed Catholics continue to do that today. Look at the examples we have in St Francis of Assisi, Mother Teresa, Ignatius Loyola, Pope John Paul II, or St John of the Cross. These are just a few examples, but there are many, many more.

It sounds like you (both Deborah and Sambos) have a very dark view of the history of the Catholic Church. You might consider that not everything you were taught about Church history is the truth.

Both of you should start reading about the saints. One book I recommend is The Story of a Soul by Therese of Lisieux. I can’t imagine anyone loving Jesus more than she did.

Anyway, I guarantee that if you both get back in the Catholic Church, you will find holy, committed Catholics to fellowship with. They are out there, and you will find them. A sure way to find them is by praying to God and asking Him to bring them to you. How could He deny you a prayer like that?

 

[Church_Militant]

I believe where the catholic church has failed its members is teaching them HOw to walk this out, where to go for help, and correction where correction is due. accountability!

I will have to disagree with you there, since the Church has always taught that the way to live out one’s faith is through living a sacramental life, and virtually every single person that I have ever known who did that were the holiest people I ever met.

What I am finding in my search is that many catholics do not know what they believe…that is they have taken someones word for it and left it there…never developing their own faith and a personal relationship with Jesus!

This is true, but the reality is that it is no better in n-C faith communities, and this I know well from personal experience. As a Sunday School teacher I found that what you describe was also the case in my students and most couldn’t have made an apologetic case for the Trinity or the Deity of Jesus if they encountered a JW at their door because they simply accepted what was told them from their pastor’s pulpit.

That is also the exact same problem that I find today with many who oppose the Catholic faith.

There is joy in that aspect alone! For the joy ofthe lord IS our strength! I am joyful always for real, that I walk with Jesus! So many christians are sad and yet we are suppose to be reflecting HIs Glory?

That’s nice, but there are those times when life is very dry and difficult and that warm fuzzy joy is not so readily found and that is when one really has to rely on the Lord to be one’s strength and deliverer.

When I left the church my heart was so broken by it. Yet that very heartbrake led me right to the arms of Jesus thru a nurse that I worked side by side with.

My Testimony.

See I beleive the key is to teach catholics what the early church fathers said and of course backed up the gospels of Jesus! There is so much myth and rumors of myths about the church! My visions have been to teach to many women the truth about Jesus making me free! I was freed from so much bondage! and garbage! That message is the gospel message! The early fathers taught of how to live this christian walk and what should be happeneing in the church! Lines up with Jesus’s own words!!! why isnt that being told more?

Have you read and studied the Catechism of the Catholic Church? Or even the Compendium to it? Have you watched Father Corapi on EWTN?

Jesus’s words should be challenging all of us to step up! Paul put it best…mature and grow up? Are we going to continue to be spoon fed? I beleive he meant study the word of God for yourselves, grow up and find out what Jesus is saying to us? We have a path of life as the didache says, and a plan or road of death or path excuse me. Jesus said…choose life!!! So did Moses! That is what my heart grieves about…how will they know if someone doesnt tell them? Pauls words as well.

Been to Mass lately? I never fail to be challenged by the homilies that our priests offer. In fact, the Mass has been better on it’s worst days than any of the services I was in in over 30 years outside of the Catholic Church.
(Cont’d)

 

[Church_Militant]

I desire so much to be used by God and I know that this journey I am on is part of my training for that mission. I have served in leadership and love serving people! I love it as I know that is the call of Jesus…to serve.

Yep… Matthew 25:31-46.

So the dysfunctional churches are not just catholic

…Revival starts within each of us FIRST! Excuse me, but your profile reads “Christian”, not Catholic, so I’m a little unclear where you come from with this as it does not conform to Catholic teaching.

**Who belongs to the Catholic Church? **

836 "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God. . . . And to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God’s grace to salvation."320
837 "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but ‘in body’ not ‘in heart.’"321
838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist."324
Besides…I believe that the parish I am planted in is the place where God means for me to be and grow and serve.

There are healthy churhes and there are sick ones. I have seen more sick than healthy! This ought not be…not according to scripture and the early wriitngs.

That is not our place to judge… we need to be busy about the Father’s business and if we are doing what we are supposed to be doing the almighty is sure to do His part in the hearts of others.

as my heart hurts for so many who are missing ALL of what God has for them through His SON! I mean my heart grieves!!! there has to be something to all of this…I am obedient and waiiting…

Debbie
(Phil. 4;13)

Then it is time for much prayer. Have you tried The Divine Mercy Chaplet? I’ve had incredible answers from it! That grieving and pain is the Holy Spirit calling us to intercession.
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.

 

[Church_Militant]

The Church is continually in need of reform, and that didn’t start or end with Martin Luther. Many of our Catholic saints worked to reform the Church from within, and many committed Catholics continue to do that today. Look at the examples we have in St Francis of Assisi, Mother Teresa, Ignatius Loyola, Pope John Paul II, or St John of the Cross. These are just a few examples, but there are many, many more.

It sounds like you (both Deborah and Sambos) have a very dark view of the history of the Catholic Church. You might consider that not everything you were taught about Church history is the truth.

Both of you should start reading about the saints. One book I recommend is The Story of a Soul by Therese of Lisieux. I can’t imagine anyone loving Jesus more than she did.

Anyway, I guarantee that if you both get back in the Catholic Church, you will find holy, committed Catholics to fellowship with. They are out there, and you will find them. A sure way to find them is by praying to God and asking Him to bring them to you. How could He deny you a prayer like that?

Reform Came before the Reformation (This Rock: April 2006)