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guanophore
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Shhhh! Don’t tell that to the Baptists. It might foment a book burning
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guanophore
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That is why we can be sure. So long as our interpretations are consistent with the Apostolic Teaching we have received, then we can be confident we are on The Way.
Actually, no, this is one of the detractions that is frequently brought by Protestants. Protestants needed to separate the Sacred Tradition from the Sacred Writings produced by it in order to justify disobedience to the authority appointed by Christ. In this separating, they like to try to make a distinction between the threads of the Divine Deposit of faith. It is part of the fruit of the Reformation, which is separating and dividing. The common theme that runs through the Catholic statements is that Sacred Scripture should not be separated from the world view in which it was written, and must be properly understood, This world view has been passed on to us through the Apostolic Succession. This is how we understand the Writings from the perspective of those who wrote them. Most modern Protestants are not aware that this exists, so they continue to interpret them in the vaccuum of modern secular thinking, creating consistently more splinters in the Body.
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guanophore
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I am game. Please demonstrate for me how this can be done.I’d like you to respond with the list, or at least a half-hearted attempt at one.
Perhaps you can help? This is something that has been requested frequently here by many who have been separated from the Apostolic Succession and don’t understand it.
Paul speaks about the believers being a “letter”. What is written on the heart, the living letter, are the Traditions (Holy way of life) taught by the Apostles. thsi lifestyle (living and thinking in a Christlike manner) is called in the NT “The Way”.
2 Cor 3:2-3
" You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, to be known and read by all; 3 and you show that you are a letter of Christ, prepared by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts."
Can you help me figure out how to reduce this way of life to a list??
The Sacred Tradition, the Spirit of the Living God manifest in the Church, at work in the believers.
" We also constantly give thanks to God for this, that when you received the word of God that you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word but as what it really is, God’s word, which is also at work in you believers." 1 Thess 2:13-14
Sacred Tradition is the living out of the faith through faithful devotion to the practices given by the Apostles:
Acts 2:41-42
42 They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.
The Apostles’ teaching, not all of which later became part of the NT, fellowship (how people are to behave when gathered), the breaking of the bread (Divine Liturgy) and prayers (only a few of which were recorded in the NT.
Here is how Sacred Tradition is defined:
“The Catholic Church, in her doctrine, life and worship, perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes.”
How does one distill this into a list? Please demonstrate, how you transmit all that you are and believe through your doctrine, life, and worship, to every generation.
Also, I see you are asking for authoritative sources, so please include those too. Maybe if you can give us a model, we can figure this out.
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guanophore
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Yes, this makes sense. A man made tradition that cannot be supported by the very thing it claims to uphold would have it’s origin in something that it denies, Sacred Tradition.
:hypno: :hypno: :hypno:
Are you admitting that your source for the canon is flawed? How can you depend on a flawed source for your rule of faith?Certainly, and a tradition that’s still disputed. So much for “tradition.”
I hope you will be able to provide us a demonstration of how this can be done.See my post above.
I’m not proving anything until I get the unwritten list of tradition and its unidentified authors.
Perhaps when you do that, I’ll take all of you seriously.
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jlong64
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While both sides present good arguments; “Good” is dependent on “point of view” I submit that both Scripture and Tradition must be followed, by teachings of the bible.
However; I submit to everyone that even the Church must admit that we are all humans and are therefore imperfect. We ALL make mistakes. No one on this Earth is perfect this includes the Pope, Cardinals, Bishops, Pastors, Etc.
Therefore some of the “Traditions” that the church clings to are just as imperfect as the “men” who made them. Sorry I have a hard time believing that being elected Pope makes one the “Perfect” authority on scripture and tradition.
Each side has made mistakes in the past and present and will undoubtedly make mistakes in the future. (even the Pope).
just my 2 cents worth.
jlong64
However; I submit to everyone that even the Church must admit that we are all humans and are therefore imperfect. We ALL make mistakes. No one on this Earth is perfect this includes the Pope, Cardinals, Bishops, Pastors, Etc.
Therefore some of the “Traditions” that the church clings to are just as imperfect as the “men” who made them. Sorry I have a hard time believing that being elected Pope makes one the “Perfect” authority on scripture and tradition.
Each side has made mistakes in the past and present and will undoubtedly make mistakes in the future. (even the Pope).
just my 2 cents worth.
jlong64
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guanophore
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On the contrary, it most certainly is. It was she who defined the concepts of the hypostatic union, and the Trinity, and the observance of Sunday Worship. These are all doctrines developed with the same authority as the canon of Scripture.You’re trying to switch the issue. The church that defined the canon is not the church that teaches unsupported, unwritten tradition that she alone defines.
I know it seems to you that they are unsupported, since you cannot “see” them with your anticatholic blinders on. You are right, though, She alone defines that which is Sacred from God, because God, who is her Head, reveals this to her. This is how all the doctrines were developed, including the canon of the NT.
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clmowry
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guanophore
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Sandusky levels spurious charges such as these as a defense against his immature perception of salvation. He has been given to understand that it is a “once for all” even that occurs once specific moment in time. Therefore, in his mind, it can be “lost” by Catholics. He does not understand or accept the Apostolic teaching that this conceptualization is immature:
"Not that I have already obtained this or have already reached the goal; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. 13 Beloved, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but this one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the heavenly call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let those of us then who are mature be of the same mind; and if you think differently about anything, this too God will reveal to you. 16 Only let us hold fast to what we have attained. " Phil 3:12-16
The Catholic Church protects her members by warning them about what course of action might result in failing to hold fast to what has been attained. If we reject the faith as it has beenhanded down to us, we are not making it our own.
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Peter_J
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I think this question gets to the heart of what you’re talking about: can you give me some examples of essential truths (of the faith) which Protestants (of different denominations) agree with, but which Catholics do not agree with?
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awan3
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I don’t think anyone addressed the context of this scripture passage from Jesus…correct me if I am wrong…but I do believe he was speaking to the Jews? I always understood the “tradition” he speaks of in these verses (and in most verses) as the Jewish traditions/rules/regulations. For example, when I read the first verse…“you are experts at setting aside the commandment of God…” – I immediately think of the issue of divorce among the Jewish people – that originally, it was not so (not permitted), but because of Israel’s “hardness of heart” (as I think it was described), Moses allowed them to divorce and this was passed down from generation to generation in the Jewish tradition until Jesus came back to set the record straight.How about a quote from the Lord?Mark 7:9-13
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.
10 “For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’;
11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’
12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother;
13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”While I don’t believe that all tradition is to be condemned, certainly, according to Jesus, all tradition that sets itself against scripture must be exposed for what it is, fought against, set aside, and ignored.
In general, the appeal of the early Fathers in regard to tradition was to the teaching of Scripture as the tradition. The question then becomes, “were they (and the subsequent church leadership) correct in their interpretations of scripture, and their definitions of tradition?”
So yeah…I don’t know what others think, but as I said, when Jesus refers to “tradition” in these verses I think specifically of Jewish tradition, not “all tradition”.
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sandusky
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LOL
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sandusky
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You can’t produce the list, and neither can your leadership.
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CentralFLJames
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Hi jlong. The Church while being holy has never asserted that it is perfect. The Church has members who are very human and that is perhaps the part that is most defining about Catholics - we are all sinners striving to perfect ourselves in Christ. It can be said that one of our traditions is to remain faithful even when we fall into sin. We pick each other up in prayer and with help and receive the sacraments necessary to help us travel The Way of The Cross to the promised land. So yes, the Church admits through its sacraments that we are imperfect. If we thought we were perfect we would have no need of the sacrament of reconciliation. Jesus did not come to save the perfect - he came to save those in need of repentance and reconciliation with God.
And no pope or bishop would ever in his right mind claim that they are perfect either. None of our clergy, including the pope are impeccable. It is just popular for the enemies and detractors of the church to cloud the dogma of papal infallability by mistaking that with personal perfection. This is a common Protestant error and as the world becomes more educated it is able to see this mistake for what it originally was - demagoguery to create a class of protesters. The Pope very rarely speaks with papal infallability to interpret scripture. Most of what is taught has already been taught by the apostles and handed down to us through the Deposit of Faith. That is our heritage and what the bishops of the church teach unaltered.
James
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sandusky
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Those points are gleaned from the authoritative Scripture.
If, as you Catholics insist, the “oral traditon” of the apostles is different from the “written tradition” of the apostles, it’s incumbent upon them to produce the list of “unwritten tradtion.”
But all that’s offered is a run-around, and excuses, and charges that those asking for such a list “don’t understand how the church operates.”
I think your inability to produce the list speaks volumes as to how the church operates.
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tmac1956
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All:I’d like you to respond with the list, or at least a half-hearted attempt at one.
I’m new to this and I am impressed with the level of intellectual discourse here. So forgive me if I am out of my league. However, toward sandusky’s question:
Since one of the three legs of the Catholic faith is based upon sacred tradition, why wouldn’t the Catechism of the Catholic Church provide what you want? Clearly, it’s not an itemized list but it does provide a written compilation of the deposit of Christian doctrine coming from sacred tradition, scripture, and the magisterium.
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JDaniel
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Although there may be one or two more, the only one that I have seen (and, I am not sure that all Protestant denominations hold this, but, the majority do) is the doctrine of salvation by faith alone.
I, too, would like to know of some others.
JD
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CentralFLJames
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Don’t you see the irony in demanding that The Church conform the form of its traditions to your demands? You have the relationship backward. You must conform to what God wants not make God comform to what you want - so must The Church. The Church voluntarily bends its knee only to God it does not try to be all things to all people. If we did that Simon Magus would have had us selling bibles as books of magic and rapture-boat tickets long ago.
It is not our tradition to let other’s define us and demand we conform to their ideas about who we are simply to convert them to our way of thinking; that would be rather circular and self defeating don’t you think?
“The points” mentioned come from the Deposit of Faith. What you fail to comprehend is that Tradition is what we used to establish what that is. There is never a conflict between Tradition and Scripture since they are inseparable.
James
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sandusky
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It’s ironic, James, only if my demands are done in a vacuum. But they aren’t.**84 The apostles entrusted the “Sacred deposit” of the faith (the depositum fidei), contained in Sacred Scripture and Tradition, to the whole of the Church. “By adhering to [this heritage] the entire holy people, united to its pastors, remains always faithful to the teaching of the apostles, to the brotherhood, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. So, in maintaining, practicing and professing the faith that has been handed on, there should be a remarkable harmony between the bishops and the faithful.”**Where do I find this depositum fidei? ISTM that the list I request must reside there.
The only thing I need to know what God wants of me is in the Scripture. Even your Church says that.106 God inspired the human authors of the sacred books. "To compose the sacred books, God chose certain men who, all the while he employed them in this task, made full use of their own faculties and powers so that, though he acted in them and by them, it was as true authors that they consigned to writing whatever he wanted written, and no more."
107 The inspired books teach the truth. "Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures.”Everything I need to know for my salvation is recorded in the Scripture. I need nothing in addition to Scripture.
I’m not asking you to conform to anything, but simply to produce the list of unwritten tradition that your Church maintains is contained in the depositum fidei, wherever that is kept.
CentralFLJames said:
If Scripture and Tradition are inseparable, and if they never conflict, then why can’t I find any evidence in Scripture describing the Assumption of Mary?
In fact, when one searches the CCC, to understand the Assumption of Mary, which is a dogma, defined and set forth "in a form obliging the Christian people to an irrevocable adherence of faith, truths contained in divine Revelation or also when it proposes, in a definitive way, truths having a necessary connection with these,” one finds only a twofold reference and appeal **to Tradition, for the Tradition of Mary’s Assumption **(LG 59; MD 1950).
There’s no basis for that Tradition in the Scripture, therefore, ISTM, there is a conflict between Scripture and Tradition, and where a conflict exists between the two, the Church’s creation of a Tradition overrules, overrides, and adds to God’s writing in Scripture, exactly what He wanted written, and no more, for the sake of my salvation (cf CCC para. 106, 107).
ISTM, there’s a circular contradiction here.
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guanophore
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No you are correct. I cannot figure out how to reduce a way of life into a list. Can you help?
“The Catholic Church, in her doctrine, life and worship, perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes.”
How does one distill this into a list? Please demonstrate, how you transmit all that you are and believe through your doctrine, life, and worship, to every generation.
Also, I see you are asking for authoritative sources, so please include those too. Maybe if you can give us a model, we can figure this out.
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Peter_J
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sandusky, I’m probably not going to get through to you, but I’ll try one more time: different Catholics have different opinions about whether there exist “extra-scriptural traditions” (sometimes called “constitutive Tradition”).
To put it another way, regardless of what you may hear on CAF or on the internet in general, the RCC has never taken any official position for or against “Sufficiency of Scripture”. Some Catholics believe that the whole depositum fidei is contained in the Scriptures, other Catholics say it isn’t.
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