Early church fathers believed in sola scriptura?

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Sandusky,
I must object. here is the list that was put in post 567 by twb1621. How can you expect a better list than this:

Sandusky, each topic listed below is actually a link to information if you go to the web site through the link below. knock yourself out.
It still doesn’t have all Sacred Tradition but it will serve to teach you that you can’t ask for a complete list of sacred tradition without studying the catechism and Catholicism.
When you are finished with that I have more information for you regarding the Church Fathers and sacred tradition.
fisheaters.com/beingcatholic.html

Devotions & Prayer

The Basics
Posture and Gesture
The Sign of the Cross
Veiling
Traditional Prayers, Creeds, & Ejaculations
Novenas
The 6 Approved Litanies
Morning Offering
The Rosary: Mary’s Psalter
Stations of the Cross
Eucharistic Adoration
Lectio Divina
Fasting & Abstinence

Specific Devotions
Devotion to the Holy Name
Devotion to the Child Jesus
Devotion to the Holy Face
Devotion to the Five Wounds
Devotion to the Divine Mercy
Devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus
Devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary

Other
Consecration to Jesus through Mary
Little Crown of the Blessed Virgin
The Franciscan Crown (Seraphic Rosary)
Akathistos to the Mother of God
The Nine Ways of Prayer of St. Dominic
Pilgrimage
Votive Offerings
Labyrinths
St. Joseph: Real Estate Agent?

The Sacrifice of the Mass

Introduction
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Attire & Etiquette
Order of the Mass
Video of the Mass
Missing Mass, & Spiritual Communion
Liturgical Vestments
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Gospel & Epistle Readings for Sundays & Holydays

Sacraments & Life Events

Birth & Rebirth
Circumcision?
Sacrament: Baptism
The Churching of Women

Sin, Reconciliation, & Penance
Nightly Examination of Conscience
Sacrament: Penance
Gaining Indulgences
Redemptive Suffering: “Offering it up”

Growing in Sanctity & Living Life
Sacrament: Holy Communion
Sacrament: Confirmation
Modesty
Catholics and the Animal World

Living your Vocation
Sacrament: Holy Matrimony
Sacrament: Holy Orders

Sickness and Death
Sick Calls
Sacrament: Unction
The Catholic Way of Dying
Burying the Dead: Catholic Funerals
Praying for the Dead

Sacred Time

The Liturgical Year
Seasonal Customs
Holy Years of Jubilee
The Catholic Day, Week, & Month
Keeping the Lord’s Day
Name Days
The Canonical Hours
The Angelus

Sacred Space

The Domestic Church: The Catholic Home
Mary Gardens
Roadside Shrines
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Types of Ecclesiastical Buildings
Inside your Church

Sacred Things

Introduction to Sacramentals
Water
Fire
Incense
Ashes
Salt
Holy Oils
Bells
Sacred Images: Statues & Other Icons
Crucifixes and Crosses
Palm Branches
Scapulars
St. Joseph’s Cinctures (Cords)
St. Benedict Medal
The Miraculous Medal
Relics and the Incorruptibles
Agnus Dei
Holy Cards
St. Anthony’s Brief
Sacrifice Beads

Other Things You Need to Know

Lists every Catholic should be familiar with
Lyrics and Melodies of Traditional Catholic Hymns
Latin
Learn to Chant the Pater Noster
Imprimi Potest, Nihil Obstat, & Imprimatur
Christian Symbols
Symbols of the Saints in Art
Phrases & Abbreviations Catholics Use
Marian Apparitions Deemed Worthy of Belief
Books of the Catholic Bible
The Davidic Psalter
The Parables of Lord Christ

Religious & the Hierarchy

Religious Life
Abbreviations of Religious Orders
Addressing and Greeting Clergy & Religious
Contacting Vatican Officials
List of Popes & Ecumenical Councils
How Popes are Elected
Basic Information About Vatican City
How to Receive a Papal Blessing

Miscellaneous

Maria Lactans: Mary as Nursing Mother
Precious Stones of the Bible
The Sibyls
The Four Temperaments
Catholic Movies
Archbishop Fulton Sheen in Real Audio
Fun Stuff
Downloads

The following link will attest to Sacred Scritpure AND Sacred Tradition by the Church Fathers.

cin.org/users/jgallegos/rule.htm
 
cfrancis said:
Odd, but you’ve provided no answers to these, yet claim they are already answered. 🤷

Just refresh my memory, then. Either porivde the link to the post with the answers, or just provide the answers!
  1. Date your canon of 66 books was defined: __________
    (hint: we’d be looking for a date)
Click to expand...
I’ve already told you, but let’s use Philthy’s method for finding the unwritten list of traditions in the catechism. To find the date of the canon to which I refer, the Protestant Canon, go through history and discard all of the other dates given for different canons, and you’ll arrive at the date for which you’re looking. 🙂

cfrancis said:
2) Source for your “SS presumes a canon” statement: _________
(hint: we’d be looking for the person who first presented this statement of fact; you know, someone from Scripture, or an ECF, something like that)
Click to expand...

As I said before, it’s common sense. :rolleyes:

What does the IC of Mary presuppose? 😉
 
[Insert quote where you disagree with me here.]

What I said before somewhere else.

And that proves it.

[Insert your 2nd quote here.]

Besides your wrong as I have shown you before.

So there.

Choose from assorted list of smilies: 😛 for example.

[Repeat as necessary to answer all of your objections to any statement I make.]

(Hey look, I got my post count up by one.

That is accomplishing something.

I guess.)

Chuck
 
Sandusky,
what exactly is your motivation in these pages? Is certainly isn’t to learn, because you ignore what people write. You asked for a list, twb provided an extensive one and you just disregard it.

Is it to disrupt the Catholics? or to convert them?

Its getting hard to take you seriously at this point.
 
sandusky said:
Yea, those are show-stoppers, already answered.

But, hey, we know the list of unwritten traditions are in the Catechism, no one knows exactly where, but they’re in there. 👍
Click to expand...
Well, I’m not at all convinced that there are any doctrines of the faith which aren’t contained in the Sacred Scriptures (at least implicitly).

But even assuming that there are, why would you think that we could give you a complete list of them? If the early Christians couldn’t make a complete list, why would we be able to in 2008?
 
Peter_J said:
Well, I’m not at all convinced that there are any doctrines of the faith which aren’t contained in the Sacred Scriptures (at least implicitly).

But even assuming that there are, why would you think that we could give you a complete list of them? If the early Christians couldn’t make a complete list, why would we be able to in 2008?
Click to expand...
Oh come on, you don’t really think Sandusky actually wants a list do you?

Sandusky just wants to keep poking at the fact that the Church does not have an official list, which Sandusky had deemed that the Church must have.

It does not matter of course that neither Catholics nor the Church would have any use for such a list and therefore has not and will not ever create one.

What matters is that Sandusky thinks we need one and we don’t have an official list and therefore Sandusky can add a lack of a list to his list of things to which Sandusky can object.

Right Sandusky?

Or did I miss something somewhere.

Chuck
 
sandusky said:
I’ve already told you, but let’s use Philthy’s method for finding the unwritten list of traditions in the catechism. To find the date of the canon to which I refer, the Protestant Canon, go through history and discard all of the other dates given for different canons, and you’ll arrive at the date for which you’re looking. 🙂
Click to expand...
If I recall, you were not at all pleased with Philthy’s method and tone; yet you use it now.:hmmm:

If you have indeed already told me the date for the canon to which you subscribe, you should not need to expend much effort providing me with either the answer or the link to the post containing the answer!

So,
  1. Date your canon of 66 books was defined: __________
sandusky said:
As I said before, it’s common sense. :rolleyes:

What does the IC of Mary presuppose? 😉
Click to expand...
Common sense 🤷
Perhaps, but surely a doctrine as ancient as SS had proponents who uttered such common sense before you did in this post.
And surely such a devout adherent of such an ancient doctrine would know of, if not the first, one of the first, utterers of this common sense. 🤷

So,
2) Source for your “SS presumes a canon” statement: _________
 
paul_c said:
Sandusky,
I must object. here is the list that was put in post 567 by twb1621. How can you expect a better list than this:

Sandusky, each topic listed below is actually a link to information if you go to the web site through the link below. knock yourself out.
It still doesn’t have all Sacred Tradition but it will serve to teach you that you can’t ask for a complete list of sacred tradition without studying the catechism and Catholicism.
When you are finished with that I have more information for you regarding the Church Fathers and sacred tradition.
fisheaters.com/beingcatholic.html

Devotions & Prayer

The Basics
Posture and Gesture
The Sign of the Cross
Veiling
Traditional Prayers, Creeds, & Ejaculations
Novenas
The 6 Approved Litanies
Morning Offering
The Rosary: Mary’s Psalter
Stations of the Cross
Eucharistic Adoration
Lectio Divina
Fasting & Abstinence

Specific Devotions
Devotion to the Holy Name
Devotion to the Child Jesus
Devotion to the Holy Face
Devotion to the Five Wounds
Devotion to the Divine Mercy
Devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus
Devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary

Other
Consecration to Jesus through Mary
Little Crown of the Blessed Virgin
The Franciscan Crown (Seraphic Rosary)
Akathistos to the Mother of God
The Nine Ways of Prayer of St. Dominic
Pilgrimage
Votive Offerings
Labyrinths
St. Joseph: Real Estate Agent?

The Sacrifice of the Mass

Introduction
Mental & Spiritual Preparation
Attire & Etiquette
Order of the Mass
Video of the Mass
Missing Mass, & Spiritual Communion
Liturgical Vestments
Liturgical Vessels
Liturgical Colors
Gospel & Epistle Readings for Sundays & Holydays

Sacraments & Life Events

Birth & Rebirth
Circumcision?
Sacrament: Baptism
The Churching of Women

Sin, Reconciliation, & Penance
Nightly Examination of Conscience
Sacrament: Penance
Gaining Indulgences
Redemptive Suffering: “Offering it up”

Growing in Sanctity & Living Life
Sacrament: Holy Communion
Sacrament: Confirmation
Modesty
Catholics and the Animal World

Living your Vocation
Sacrament: Holy Matrimony
Sacrament: Holy Orders

Sickness and Death
Sick Calls
Sacrament: Unction
The Catholic Way of Dying
Burying the Dead: Catholic Funerals
Praying for the Dead

Sacred Time

The Liturgical Year
Seasonal Customs
Holy Years of Jubilee
The Catholic Day, Week, & Month
Keeping the Lord’s Day
Name Days
The Canonical Hours
The Angelus

Sacred Space

The Domestic Church: The Catholic Home
Mary Gardens
Roadside Shrines
Parishes, Dioceses, Archdioceses, Patriarchates
Types of Ecclesiastical Buildings
Inside your Church

Sacred Things

Introduction to Sacramentals
Water
Fire
Incense
Ashes
Salt
Holy Oils
Bells
Sacred Images: Statues & Other Icons
Crucifixes and Crosses
Palm Branches
Scapulars
St. Joseph’s Cinctures (Cords)
St. Benedict Medal
The Miraculous Medal
Relics and the Incorruptibles
Agnus Dei
Holy Cards
St. Anthony’s Brief
Sacrifice Beads

Other Things You Need to Know

Lists every Catholic should be familiar with
Lyrics and Melodies of Traditional Catholic Hymns
Latin
Learn to Chant the Pater Noster
Imprimi Potest, Nihil Obstat, & Imprimatur
Christian Symbols
Symbols of the Saints in Art
Phrases & Abbreviations Catholics Use
Marian Apparitions Deemed Worthy of Belief
Books of the Catholic Bible
The Davidic Psalter
The Parables of Lord Christ

Religious & the Hierarchy

Religious Life
Abbreviations of Religious Orders
Addressing and Greeting Clergy & Religious
Contacting Vatican Officials
List of Popes & Ecumenical Councils
How Popes are Elected
Basic Information About Vatican City
How to Receive a Papal Blessing

Miscellaneous

Maria Lactans: Mary as Nursing Mother
Precious Stones of the Bible
The Sibyls
The Four Temperaments
Catholic Movies
Archbishop Fulton Sheen in Real Audio
Fun Stuff
Downloads

The following link will attest to Sacred Scritpure AND Sacred Tradition by the Church Fathers.

cin.org/users/jgallegos/rule.htm
Click to expand...
Thanks for the list, but the area of interest has been, and still is, the oral traditions of the apostles, that differ from the scripture. 🤷
 
Sandusky,
Now you are being completely ridiculous.

Do you think that the Apostles intended the Scriptures to be a “how-to” manual on how to practice the faith? Do you think for a moment that the holy authors thought that their writings would be used by people as “how-to” manuals 2000 years later?

Remember,
The gospels were biographies of Jesus Christ.
Click to expand...
Acts was the biographies of selected Apostles.
Click to expand...
The epistles were generally short letters from Apostles to individuals or churches to address various situational issues of the faith. It is clear that none of these were meant to be comprehensive “how-to” manuals of the faith. Sure, they give some guidance, but they were obviously never meant to cover all the points of the faith. Just the ones that concerned that particular situation.
Click to expand...
Revelations was exactly that and could never be confused with a how-to manual for the faithful.
Click to expand...
Therefore, it is clear that there is a huge gap in scripture (the how- to’s) that had to be plugged by tradition. For instance, the new testament isn’t clear about any celebration feasts (Date of Christmas, Easter, Pentecost, Ascension day, even Sunday worship). It doesn’t say how or what to pray (other than the Our Father) or how to conduct mass or the sacraments. I think you would agree that these are things the Apostles taught (because surely they would have been asked), but somehow didn’t manage to get into their official scriptures.

If you are not willing to accept this, then I think we are just wasting our time discussing further with you…
 
BRB said:
Tradition wasn’t essential to the Trinity … after first gospel, Matthew was written.

Christ in scriptures clearly differentiated the 3 aspects (persons) of God. In many scriptures Christ differentiates himself from the Father … even prays to the Father when he is in the Garden [Matt 26:39] and while on the Cross Matt 27:46 ]

And, differentiates himself from the H.S. in Matt 12:32 “And whoever says a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.”
Click to expand...
Yes, we who have benefit of tradition see the Trinity clearly in scripture.

But those unstable who divorce themselves from tradition can come up with some powerful arguments against it, convincing millions of people.

In my opinion, that Christ was God was known by early Christians before extensive scripture exegesis was possible. Ignatius, writing about 110 AD, speaks of “Christ our God”. Now that is very early, so early that it is doubtful much scripture study could have been done, and doubtful that few, if any, Christians would have complete collections of NT writings. If they even knew what that collection was!
Hence, knowledge of the deity of Christ and the personality and deity of the Holy Spirit was something taught by the apostles and not dependent upon scripture study.
 
sandusky said:
Thanks for the list, but the area of interest has been, and still is, the oral traditions of the apostles, that differ from the scripture. 🤷
Click to expand...
Sandusky, you fall into the “piece of work” category as we say in Philly. First of all there are no "oral traditions of the apostles, that differ from the scripture. Only Sacred Traditions that compliment scripture and vise versa.

Second, again I ask from you, what is the meaning of the word “tradition" in the dictionary? That was one of those pieces of information that you never responded to.

Third, I gave you the opportunity to show honesty in your interests here, however I have no doubt in my mind that you are playing with the Scriptural Word of God in a most heretical way :bible1: and I do not intend to have to answer at my time for taking part in this with you any longer. I would not recommend anyone take part in such disrespect toward the Word of our Lord and I pray for your enlightenment.:gopray:

My final advice to you is to look up the Catechism of the Catholic Church and research it for any answers you seek, then once you can reflect on it with credibility, come back but only with legitimate questions for things you are truly interested in learning.
 
" twb1621 in Post 567:
Devotions & Prayer

The Basics
Posture and Gesture
The Sign of the Cross
Veiling
Traditional Prayers, Creeds, & Ejaculations
Novenas
The 6 Approved Litanies
Morning Offering
The Rosary: Mary’s Psalter
Stations of the Cross
Eucharistic Adoration
Lectio Divina
Fasting & Abstinence

Specific Devotions
Devotion to the Holy Name
Devotion to the Child Jesus
Devotion to the Holy Face
Devotion to the Five Wounds
Devotion to the Divine Mercy
Devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus
Devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary

Other
Consecration to Jesus through Mary
Little Crown of the Blessed Virgin
The Franciscan Crown (Seraphic Rosary)
Akathistos to the Mother of God
The Nine Ways of Prayer of St. Dominic
Pilgrimage
Votive Offerings
Labyrinths
St. Joseph: Real Estate Agent?

The Sacrifice of the Mass

Introduction
Mental & Spiritual Preparation
Attire & Etiquette
Order of the Mass
Video of the Mass
Missing Mass, & Spiritual Communion
Liturgical Vestments
Liturgical Vessels
Liturgical Colors
Gospel & Epistle Readings for Sundays & Holydays

Sacraments & Life Events

Birth & Rebirth
Circumcision?
Sacrament: Baptism
The Churching of Women

Sin, Reconciliation, & Penance
Nightly Examination of Conscience
Sacrament: Penance
Gaining Indulgences
Redemptive Suffering: “Offering it up”

Growing in Sanctity & Living Life
Sacrament: Holy Communion
Sacrament: Confirmation
Modesty
Catholics and the Animal World

Living your Vocation
Sacrament: Holy Matrimony
Sacrament: Holy Orders

Sickness and Death
Sick Calls
Sacrament: Unction
The Catholic Way of Dying
Burying the Dead: Catholic Funerals
Praying for the Dead

Sacred Time

The Liturgical Year
Seasonal Customs
Holy Years of Jubilee
The Catholic Day, Week, & Month
Keeping the Lord’s Day
Name Days
The Canonical Hours
The Angelus

Sacred Space

The Domestic Church: The Catholic Home
Mary Gardens
Roadside Shrines
Parishes, Dioceses, Archdioceses, Patriarchates
Types of Ecclesiastical Buildings
Inside your Church

Sacred Things

Introduction to Sacramentals
Water
Fire
Incense
Ashes
Salt
Holy Oils
Bells
Sacred Images: Statues & Other Icons
Crucifixes and Crosses
Palm Branches
Scapulars
St. Joseph’s Cinctures (Cords)
St. Benedict Medal
The Miraculous Medal
Relics and the Incorruptibles
Agnus Dei
Holy Cards
St. Anthony’s Brief
Sacrifice Beads

Other Things You Need to Know

Lists every Catholic should be familiar with
Lyrics and Melodies of Traditional Catholic Hymns
Latin
Learn to Chant the Pater Noster
Imprimi Potest, Nihil Obstat, & Imprimatur
Christian Symbols
Symbols of the Saints in Art
Phrases & Abbreviations Catholics Use
Marian Apparitions Deemed Worthy of Belief
Books of the Catholic Bible
The Davidic Psalter
The Parables of Lord Christ

Religious & the Hierarchy

Religious Life
Abbreviations of Religious Orders
Addressing and Greeting Clergy & Religious
Contacting Vatican Officials
List of Popes & Ecumenical Councils
How Popes are Elected
Basic Information About Vatican City
How to Receive a Papal Blessing

Miscellaneous

Maria Lactans: Mary as Nursing Mother
Precious Stones of the Bible
The Sibyls
The Four Temperaments
Catholic Movies
Archbishop Fulton Sheen in Real Audio
Fun Stuff
Downloads

The following link will attest to Sacred Scritpure AND Sacred Tradition by the Church Fathers.
Click to expand...
Ok, you just wanted a list and here is a list. But wait, drum roll, how is Sandusky going to get out of this? and here he goes:
sandusky said:
Thanks for the list, but the area of interest has been, and still is, the oral traditions of the apostles, that differ from the scripture. 🤷
Click to expand...
now you are playing the shell game, “Here is the question”, “No, wait here is the real question”…:rolleyes: [SIGN]Gimme a Major Break[/SIGN]
 
Philthy said:
I didnt say SS was reasonable, I said that I agree with CM regarding it’s reasonableness. I guess I should have said that I agree with him that it is not reasonable…
Click to expand...
you are right, I didn’t follow through with reading CM’s post. You were just agreeing with his position. My bad .:o
 
CentralFLJames said:
This is off topic but I must ask what conclusions are those Ron?
There is nothing I have concluded that is contrary to the CCC or scripture or the Encyclicals to my knowledge. I do not underestimate God’s sovereignty nor Mercy any more than I underestimate God’s Justice and Jesus’ commandments. Part of Mercy is showing Mercy to those who HUMBLY request it not to those who mock God and defy his ordinances and His appointed authorities. Mercy is to be begged for with tears and pleading not demanded and NEVER assumed as if one has a right to it by simply calling oneself “Christian” while promoting and living heretical anti-Christian teachings. So be careful you don’t soften your catechism into the errors of religious pluralism and moral relativism - both heresies.

I stand by my statements and think you are over reading me. You may PM me if you like to keep this OP on topic.

James
Click to expand...
I totally get your point. Thanks!!👍
 
Gentlemen (and I use the term loosely),

I won’t be able to continue on this thread…sorry for leaving some of your questions unanswered.
 
40.png
Philthy:
Hi CM!

While I agree with you from an intellectual standpoint regarding the reasonableness of SS, I have to also point out that part of the problem with the Catholic Church is…well…Catholics! :o
There has been plenty to dissuade non-Catholics from considering Catholicism - particularly in the USA. I say this not to bash the Church I love, but because without confronting our own failings we will not move to fix them. I think that the Protestant Reformation is an opportunity to re-examine various aspects of parish life, for example, to improve it. Yeah… I know, but here again we have appeal to the reality of absolute truth and one’s commitment to it at all costs.

You and I both know that the failings of individuals, regardless of number or severity, still does not negate the facts presented in a given truth.

Our appeal must be to the openhearted and honest inquirer, seeking to follow Christ wherever He leads.

In the end, (and all throughout really) conversions are the work of the Holy Spirit. We serve Our Lord only in the best use of our talents as given to us by Him. (Remember last Sunday’s Gospel?) 🙂
 
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