I am involved in a long, somewhat convoluted discussion with a rabid anti-Catholic. She completely dismisses everything I’ve said, saying it goes against the Bible and Jesus, yet quotes radials like Mary Ann Collins and complains when I don’t accept her sources.
But she completely dismissed the early church fathers! I’ve never run in to someone who says “I don’t give a **** what Ignatius and the other supposed ‘church fathers’ had to say because they completely contradict the NT and Jesus”. Aside from banging my head against the wall, what can one say? I’ve largely used just scripture references in arguing with her and her husband, but they, of course, just dismiss them as out of context. But I can’t show that they’re actually in context and what was believed because she refuses to see any outside sources. Argh. Even as I type this I’m just thinking I should given up, although it’s not in my nature. Sigh. What would you say to such a misguided and irrational human being.
- Keep your calm
- Pray
- Realize that you are in a losing battle.
- Leave it up to the Holy Spirit to bring these people around (if possible)
All you can really do is present your views. If they reject them there is little else you can do. Just console yourself with the idea that you are planting seeds that will perhaps sprout in the future.
The only argument that I can think of when you reach such an impasse and neither is willing to budge is the “authority” argument. It is philospophical and very practical. It goes like this.
First get them to agree that it is a sin to preach a false Gospel or false doctrine. This should not be too hard. Once they admit this then they cannot deny that the following passage applies to doctrinal issues.
Ask them.
“How are we to resolve a doctrinal issue when both sides are firmly convinced that they are correct AND both sides are firmly convinced that they are “Spirit Guided”?”
Christ provides for such contingencies in Matthew
Matthew 18: 15-18
15 "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16 "But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. 17
"If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church (Singular); and if he refuses to listen even to the church let him be as a tax collector. 18 "Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.
Now proceed like this:
"We both hold strong views.
“We both believe that we are guided by the Holy Spirit in our views.”
"Both of our views, we believe, are supported both in scripture and by others (step one and step two of the above passage).
“We cannot reach agreement as to which view is correct.”
“We do agree that the Holy Spririt is a Spirit of unity and not confusion. Therefore only one view can be correct”
"What does Christ tell us to do in such a situation?
The answer is “Tell it To The Church”.
Then ask them how to proceed - - - How do we follow Christ’s command and, “Tell it To The Church”.
I have never proposed this to a non-catholic Christian and gotten anything like a good answer. It stops them flat.
And what it really and truly does is prove that they cannot submit to the direct command of Jesus because they will not submit to the authority of “The Church”.
What this does is bring to the foreground the issue of authority. The need for a temporal and spirit guided authority to settle doctrinal issues between well meaning Christians.
While I am sure that this argument will not immediately send them running to RCIA, it will plant another seed in their hearts. For if the NCC churches demonstrate anything with their varying doctrines and splits of splits, it is the need for such authority.
Of course it takes great humility and submission to God for Catholics to accept such authority.
The Bible even contains a wonderful example of a doctrinal conflict between two local church communities that was resolved by council and applied to the entire Church. That is contained in Acts 15 and the Gentiles, and the Judaizers. No resolution could be reached at the local level so the matter was “kicked upstairs” to the apostles meeting in council in Jerusalem. The issue was debated in council and the matter settled by Peter and James. The resulting decision applied not just to Jerusalem, or to Antioch (as independent churches) but to the entire unified Church everywhere. No Gentile convert anywhere would be required to submit to circumcision. The perfect example of “Tell it To The Church”.
Of course overall - the best you will be able to do is to plant some seeds.
Peace
James
