Early Church not Catholic

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If the early Chruch was not Catholic it was certainly not a happy clappy Jump for Jesus slayed by the spirit type Church either.
Not sure if folks are in a happy, clappy, jumping spirit for the Lord that it’s all that awful.

2Samuel 6: 5 But David and all Israel played before the Lord on all manner of instruments made of wood, on harps and lutes and timbrels and cornets and cymbals. 14And David danced with all his might before the Lord… 15And David and all the house of Israel brought the ark of the covenant of the Lord with joyful shouting, and with sound of trumpet.
 
I was speaking with a non-Catholic Christian over Christmas about Sacred Scripture and he - knowing that I was Catholic said, “…of course, the Early Church was not Catholic, they like to say that they were, but there is no indication of that.”

What book provides a definiative guide to the historical creation of Churches that were one, holy, catholic and apostolic?

From a Catholic perspective, I see Sacred Scripture as outlining the fundamentals: the establishment of bishops & deacons and the universally accepted theology of Christ being contained in the “breaking of the bread” and that He died and Resurrection and Ascended and was going to return.

Being blinded from John 6 however, I have to wonder if non-Catholic Christians would be at all accepting of a book that attempts to consolidate the Early Church with the Catholic Church.
I think that you are attempting to say that the Early Church is the Roman Catholic church as we know it today. That would be incorrect. The Early Church WAS East and West before the split. The Bishop of Rome was not the one and final authority which is visible in the compiling of the canon for example. He served in an advisory fashion but was not the final authority over the Council of Hippo and Carthage. In fact when Rome elevated its bishop to a primal position, this is when the sever happened (1054ad).
 
I think that you are attempting to say that the Early Church is the Roman Catholic church as we know it today. That would be incorrect. The Early Church WAS East and West before the split. The Bishop of Rome was not the one and final authority which is visible in the compiling of the canon for example. He served in an advisory fashion but was not the final authority over the Council of Hippo and Carthage. In fact when Rome elevated its bishop to a primal position, this is when the sever happened (1054ad).
I’m no expert but I believe that even before the split there were references to the Primacy of the See of Rome.
Not saying that there wasn’t developments during the growth of the Church, just that there is room for consideration in the matter.

That said - you are absolutely right in that the Church WAS unified before 1054. However, if one looks at the Combined Church of the 1st millennium and even the divided Church (Catholic-Orthodox) one will find that both are built on the idea of unity and Church Authority, not on “invisible church”, “local independence”, “Sola Scriptura” etc…All things that certain protestants try to propose.

One of the great beauties and blessings of the East West Schism is that it DOES provide independent confirmation of much that we are saying here. That the early Church was - One Holy Catholic and Apostolic" - and that the Church was structured and authoritative and sought communion and doctrinal unity.
Details of the Structure changes…But that fundamental underlying fact remains.

Peace
James
 
The problem with using the word “heretic” when it comes to talking about the early Christian groups in the first 400 years is that…for those first 4 centuries, these groups were not considered heretic!
They were considered groups that followed holy words.

That’s completely wrong. I suggest you read the ECFs carefully (especially the first 300 years), they identify heretical groups quite often.

Proof? Well, many writings from early christians have been uncovered that show various degrees of alignment or non-alignment to the church teachings today.
The Gospel of Thomas is one…found in 1945, as you all know. And those dozens upon dozens of Gnostic ones that were found and published recently. I’m just doing my research now on the Ebonites, etc…there are writings from them, too, and the other groups.

Why are you doing ‘research’ on Gnostic and heretical groups? Why not read the writings of the sources I cited?

These other gospels–stories and words from and about Jesus–were not included in the official bible put together in 4th century.
But they are words that may have come directly from Jesus.

And how did you reach that conclusion?

From what I’ve read, these were not included because either some of the words and teachings did not fully agree with then-decided-upon “official” church teaching…or some were thought to be forgeries (tho ironically, it is common belief in the last hundred years by top biblical scholars, as I’m sure you all know, that several of the books in the bible that we thought were written by certain people, indeed were not.)

And the Gnostic books you cite are?

Unfortunately, once the official book was decided upon in the 4th Century…I think these other books were burned and banned? And those who were found with them or believing/following them were severely punished.

Wrong. Many of the books that did not find their way into the NT were the very books I cited in the timeline. They were orthodox and some still read in the parishes of the time.

One might say they were “persecuted” for their beliefs.
That is why they are so rare, hard to find.
And the groups were forced to die out.

The monkey is on your back to prove that.

But I for one am very emotionally and spiritually moved by some of the early Christians who personally fought to save them.
They must have felt very strongly about them.
Like that monk in Egypt who was buried with The Gospel of Peter in his coffin. And those who hid scripture on papyrus in vases and buried them deep into the ground or in caves. I envision those people, hoping and wondering if some day someone would find them.
These people certainly had passion for their scriptures.

I think you are concocting a fantasy that has no value in serious historical analysis. You create a group, you insist it existed, and offer no proof of it’s existence.
But then revisionist history never needs evidence, does it?


Amazingly, isn’t the Gospel of Peter one of the few–if not the only one-- that actually identifies itself as being the writer of the gospel?
*“But I Simon Peter and Andrew my brother took our nets and went to the sea;” *

Ah, well.
As one other poster said…we were not there.
Wish we were.
(with video cameras, tape recorders, news photographers, etc, etc…)

What makes you think that technology leads to the truth more than oral or written?
 
But they are all united in the one core belief of all heresy: that **personal interpretation of the Tradition and Scripture **is acceptable and the interpretation of the magisterium can be rejected. It doesn’t actually matter so much how they interpreted it, or that they didn’t interpret it the same. The Protestants don’t all interpret it the same way. It is the hubris of thinking they know better than the church that unites them.
I believe your scope is too narrow. I have discovered in my thinking that heresy does not say much. Orthodox thinking says lots. I prefer to see heresy and heretics as unorthodox thinkers and unorthodox thinking. Try this notion on for size.

I also see heretics as dissenters, rebels. If you broaden the scope of dissenters and rebel and realize as Paul said…The Church is the mystery hidden for all ages…always there but not realized and Paul saw it in the OT…it developed and grew to the Kingdom of David and all along the way…Adam/Eve…rebels/unorthodox thinking…Moses and the people he led…filled with dissenters and unorthodox thinking…all the way to the Samaritans rebels/unorthodox thinking and if you consider that when Jesus was among them the Pharisees and Saduccees were rebels and dissenters and unorthodox thinkers as well…The Church always has and always will have dissenters and rebels bound by unorthodox thinking.🙂
 
I’m no expert but I believe that even before the split there were references to the Primacy of the See of Rome.
Not saying that there wasn’t developments during the growth of the Church, just that there is room for consideration in the matter.

That said - you are absolutely right in that the Church WAS unified before 1054. However, if one looks at the Combined Church of the 1st millennium and even the divided Church (Catholic-Orthodox) one will find that both are built on the idea of unity and Church Authority, not on “invisible church”, “local independence”, “Sola Scriptura” etc…All things that certain protestants try to propose.

One of the great beauties and blessings of the East West Schism is that it DOES provide independent confirmation of much that we are saying here. That the early Church was - One Holy Catholic and Apostolic" - and that the Church was structured and authoritative and sought communion and doctrinal unity.
Details of the Structure changes…But that fundamental underlying fact remains.

Peace
James
One holy catholic and apostolic for sure. Authority and not sola scriptura yes I agree again. But, the Early Christian church did not have papal infallibility nor primacy. The fact that the canon of the East is different than the canon of the West does showcase this to one degree or another.
 
One holy catholic and apostolic for sure. Authority and not sola scriptura yes I agree again.
👍👍 And realistically this is enough to undercut 90% of the post reformation “protestant” argument regarding the early Church.
After presenting the clear biblical evidence supporting the Catholic/Orthodox model(s) and the clear lack of biblical evidence supporting the protestant model, I will suggest that they can choose between one of these two - OR - that they can work within the protestant community toward greater visible unity on the Biblical, councilior, model…
I often get people to agree that this is biblical, but they cringe at the idea of introducing such into the mish-mosh of protestant thinking.
My hope is that the individual might eventually decide to come home to Either the Catholic or Orthodox Church.
But, the Early Christian church did not have papal infallibility nor primacy.
Well this I shall leave to those better educated in the matter. I am prayerfully confident that the various talks between East and West will eventually clarify and resolve this matter.
The fact that the canon of the East is different than the canon of the West does showcase this to one degree or another.
Actually I see this difference a little differently. I don’t see the difference in the Canon being so much a “primacy” matter as simply one of how the Church as a whole viewed Scripture.
Consider…At the time that the 73 book canon was set in the west, no one made a big deal of the eastern Churches having a few extras. So far as I know, the various Bishops and Patriarchs did not fuss over this matter with each other. Both Churches agreed that the 73 books are inspired…They just did not say that only these 73 books could be trusted.
This condition continued for some 500 years or so before the split and even after that the Western Church did not “Close the canon” for another 500 years.
The only reason that they DID close the canon was because unauthorized persons were stripping books from it and the Church needed to act to protect God’s Word.

That said…The fact that East and West worked from different canons, to me, points to how the Church viewed the relationship between “Scripture Authority” and “Church Authority”.

Peace
James
 
One holy catholic and apostolic for sure. Authority and not sola scriptura yes I agree again. But, the Early Christian church did not have papal infallibility nor primacy. The fact that the canon of the East is different than the canon of the West does showcase this to one degree or another.
Yes the Early Christian Church did have papal infallibility and primacy and received it so from Jesus Christ Himself. The proof can be found in the teachings that Jesus instructed His first Bishops of the Church, the Apostles and the Roman Catholic Church is the only Church that I know of that has never changed any of Jesus’ teachings to accomodate its “members” lifestyle.

Jesus didn’t make copies of the Bible and hand them out to all his followers and say read it and interpret it according to how you want to live your life. Instead, He laid the foundation for a Church whose leaders would safeguard and help the Church to understand His teachings and maintain unity.

His teachings have been handed down thru Apostolic Succession starting with Peter (Mt. 16:18-19). We consider St. Peter the first “Pope”, or leader of the Church even though he wasn’t called Pope. And, since Peter was the bishop of Rome almost all of his successors have been situated there in Rome and all have been bishop of Rome even when situated elsewhere and is the reason why our faith is called the Roman Catholic Faith. Pope Benedict is the 267th successor of St. Peter in a nearly 2,000 year line of unbroken succession.

If you are a “Bible” Christian and you believe that the Bible is the truth then I ask why do you deny Jesus’ words? Because the words He speaks are His words not the words of His followers or His Church. His followers and His Church safeguard them and His Priests adminster His commands in the 7 Sacraments not the 2 Sacraments or whatever Sacrament you want to follow.

For instance, as Catholics we believe that Jesus Christ instituted the 7 Sacraments. We believe that not only was He present at their origin 2,000 years ago, but that He really is present, active and alive in those Sacraments now today. That is why His Sacraments give us grace, in them Christ himself is at work transforming our interiors so that our exterior can be His hands and feet and His compassionate heart in the world we live in so that all can know and love Him and all His people here now. We also believe His commands of these 7 Sacraments can be found in the Bible.

For example, we can read about Jesus instituting the Sacrament of The Eucharist in the Gospel of John, Chapter 6 The Bread of Life Discourse verse 22-59 and continues with The Words of Eternal Life in verse 60-71. Why do our Protestant Brothers and Sisters in Christ, deny this teaching and even some who call themselves Catholics deny this teaching. The same with the Sacrament of Matriomony. Jesus institutes the Sacrament of Matriomony in the following: Mt5:31-32; 19:3-12; Mk10:2-9; 10:11-12). If you believe the Word of God, the Word made Flesh, you follow Him in His Church. Note “Church” not “Churches”. Also in the word “Matriomony” can be found the word “trio” meaning 3. Man, Woman and The Church as Witness to the union not a civil union in a court office witnessed by a judge or other. Amen.
 
Yes the Early Christian Church did have papal infallibility and primacy and received it so from Jesus Christ Himself. The proof can be found in the teachings that Jesus instructed His first Bishops of the Church, the Apostles and the Roman Catholic Church is the only Church that I know of that has never changed any of Jesus’ teachings to accomodate its “members” lifestyle.

Jesus didn’t make copies of the Bible and hand them out to all his followers and say read it and interpret it according to how you want to live your life. Instead, He laid the foundation for a Church whose leaders would safeguard and help the Church to understand His teachings and maintain unity.

His teachings have been handed down thru Apostolic Succession starting with Peter (Mt. 16:18-19). We consider St. Peter the first “Pope”, or leader of the Church even though he wasn’t called Pope. And, since Peter was the bishop of Rome almost all of his successors have been situated there in Rome and all have been bishop of Rome even when situated elsewhere and is the reason why our faith is called the Roman Catholic Faith. Pope Benedict is the 267th successor of St. Peter in a nearly 2,000 year line of unbroken succession.

If you are a “Bible” Christian and you believe that the Bible is the truth then I ask why do you deny Jesus’ words? Because the words He speaks are His words not the words of His followers or His Church. His followers and His Church safeguard them and His Priests adminster His commands in the 7 Sacraments not the 2 Sacraments or whatever Sacrament you want to follow.

For instance, as Catholics we believe that Jesus Christ instituted the 7 Sacraments. We believe that not only was He present at their origin 2,000 years ago, but that He really is present, active and alive in those Sacraments now today. That is why His Sacraments give us grace, in them Christ himself is at work transforming our interiors so that our exterior can be His hands and feet and His compassionate heart in the world we live in so that all can know and love Him and all His people here now. We also believe His commands of these 7 Sacraments can be found in the Bible.

For example, we can read about Jesus instituting the Sacrament of The Eucharist in the Gospel of John, Chapter 6 The Bread of Life Discourse verse 22-59 and continues with The Words of Eternal Life in verse 60-71. Why do our Protestant Brothers and Sisters in Christ, deny this teaching and even some who call themselves Catholics deny this teaching. The same with the Sacrament of Matriomony. Jesus institutes the Sacrament of Matriomony in the following: Mt5:31-32; 19:3-12; Mk10:2-9; 10:11-12). If you believe the Word of God, the Word made Flesh, you follow Him in His Church. Note “Church” not “Churches”. Also in the word “Matriomony” can be found the word “trio” meaning 3. Man, Woman and The Church as Witness to the union not a civil union in a court office witnessed by a judge or other. Amen.
Well first of all, Protestants as a whole do not reject everything that you claim they reject. Secondly, the position of the Bishop of Rome as primal has been debated for as long as there have been popes! There’s just no denying that. One of the big problems I see there is that the Bible doesn’t give the evidence needed to show the pope as primal. A verse here and a verse there versus the entire context of Scripture hasn’t held up over the centuries. This is precisely why it wasn’t until the 19th century that Rome declared the pope as infallible. Too many inconsistencies.
 
I believe there are a lot of Early Church Fathers’ writings on the authority of Peter as the first pope and the primacy of Rome.
 
Secondly, the position of the Bishop of Rome as primal has been debated for as long as there have been popes! There’s just no denying that. One of the big problems I see there is that the Bible doesn’t give the evidence needed to show the pope as primal. A verse here and a verse there versus the entire context of Scripture hasn’t held up over the centuries. This is precisely why it wasn’t until the 19th century that Rome declared the pope as infallible. Too many inconsistencies.
In an article titled, Papal Infallibility by Jeffrey Mirus, PhD he states that the evidence that papal infallibility is part of the Christian Faith comes from three sources, 1. Scripture, 2. History and 3. Logic. Since you deny the first two maybe the 3rd will move your heart:

"While the the First Vatican Council defined papal infallibility in 1870, you must understand that the date on which a doctrine is officially defined is not the date on which it becomes true. Rather, it was always true. It’s just that different aspects of the Faith are challenged at different periods of history, and when a challenge occurs or a serious concern or question arises, then the Church will settle the difficulty by formally stating what the truth of the matter is – to end the confusion. So papal infallibility has always been true, and, moreover, was accepted and practiced from the earliest times.
The evidence that papal infallibility is part of the Christian Faith comes from three sources.
(The following is the Logic part of Papal Infallibility by Jeffrey Mirus, PhD)

LOGIC
Third, Logic. There are only two covenants, the old and the new. But the first Christians under the New Covenant had a living and infallible guide to the truth in Christ himself. Surely the lack of such a guide in future times would constitute yet another covenant – the difference would be so radical. The argument runs as follows:

It is clear even from Scripture that Peter had a special commission and special powers from Christ to care for the flock of Christ, to bind and loose, and to confirm his brothers in faith – indeed he had the very powers of the keys to the Kingdom. Obviously, these powers were essential to the Church as constituted by Christ. And Christ promised to be with the Church always to the end of time, and said that the powers of hell would not prevail against it.

Now, clearly Christ knew that Peter would not live until the end of time, so he must have intended that the power he gave to Peter would be carried on until His return. After all, Peter was to feed “my” (Christ’s) sheep, and so was serving as the vicar of Christ in Christ’s absence. When Peter died, a new vicar would take his place, and so on, until Christ returned to claim his own. The parable of the steward awaiting his Master’s return is very much to the point.

Just as clearly, Peter’s authority also enabled himself (and his successors) to set forth the manner in which their successors would be selected, either by choosing the successor personally before death, or by setting forth some other means – eventually, election by the college of cardinals.

Moroever, if these special and essential powers were to pass out of existence, it would be proof that Christ was no longer with his Church and that the powers of Hell had indeed prevailed. Therefore, again, Christ must have intended successors to Peter.

For this reason, we are not at all surprised that subsequent popes claimed to have the Petrine power and that the early Christian community accepted it without question. As I indicated above, this authority was excercised by the fourth Pope, Clement, while St. John the Evangelist was still alive. The earliest Christians were in a position to know Christ’s will from other sources than Scripture (just as we today, under the guidance of the Church, are able to learn from Tradition).

INFALLIBILITY ITSELF
Now we come to the specific question of infallibility, by which the successors of Peter continue to confirm the brethren. Since the successors of Peter have the same Petrine authority, which comes ultimately from Christ, to bind and loose, they have the authority to bind the faithful in matters pertaining to salvation – that is, in faith or morals. Now, if a Pope could bind the faithful to error, it would be a clear triumph of the powers of Hell, because the entire Church would be bound to follow the error under Christ’s own authority. Obviously, this cannot happen.

Therefore, the logic of the situation demands that the Petrine power of confirming the brethren must be an infallible power. When the Pope intends by virtue of his supreme authority to teach on a matter of faith and morals to the entire Church, he MUST be protected by the Holy Spirit from error – else the powers of hell would prevail.

This is the logic behind infallibility. But, of course, it is not based solely on logic, since it is attested in Scripture and was held by the earliest Christians and the Fathers and, indeed, by the vast majority of Christians from the beginning.

Further, it is not a new thing. It was precisely defined at Vatican I in order to clarify what was at that time a confusing issue, but this was by way of stating clearly what Christ’s teaching was, not by way of adding anything new. Vatican I therefore carefully enumerated the conditions under which the Pope was in fact infallible – the same conditions which logic demands, which Scripture suggests, and which tradition shows us in action down through the centuries.

When the Pope (1) intends to teach (2) by virtue of his supreme authority (3) on a matter of faith and morals (4) to the whole Church, he is preserved by the Holy Spirit from error. His teaching act is therefore called “infallible” and the teaching which he articulates is termed “irreformable”.​

 
In an article titled, Papal Infallibility by Jeffrey Mirus, PhD he states that the evidence that papal infallibility is part of the Christian Faith comes from three sources, 1. Scripture, 2. History and 3. Logic. Since you deny the first two maybe the 3rd will move your heart:
 
The early Christian Church - established by the Apostles of Christ - was undeniably:
  • catholic, but not Roman
  • orthodox, but not Jewish
  • evangelical, but not Protestant
With his hand-picked Apostles as witnesses, Christ taught humility throughout his ministry on earth. If there is evidence that Peter himself claimed or attempted to exercise dictator-like supremacy over his Apostolic brothers, please present it. The title “Pope” appears to have been applied to him posthumously.

Happy Holidays.
 
I have been following this thread as well as a few others and it seems to me are running parallel to the same issue

If the Catholic Church is not the same church Christ established then which church is it? All I keep reading from opposers is “it isn’t the same church” but have not told us which church is. Has the gates of hell actually in fact prevailed against it or is this maybe one of those scriptures we are not supposed to take so literal?
 
What book provides a definiative guide to the historical creation of Churches that were one, holy, catholic and apostolic?
One author who might be able to help is Jimmy Aiken. He has written a book called “The Fathers Know Best.” If that wouldn’t be the book you are looking for, he could help you in your search for one.
 
The early Christian Church - established by the Apostles of Christ - was undeniably:
  • catholic, but not Roman
  • orthodox, but not Jewish
  • evangelical, but not Protestant
With his hand-picked Apostles as witnesses, Christ taught humility throughout his ministry on earth.
I really Like this!!
If there is evidence that Peter himself claimed or attempted to exercise dictator-like supremacy over his Apostolic brothers, please present it. The title “Pope” appears to have been applied to him posthumously.
You ask for evidence that offers no proof.
Does one have to, “exercise dictator-like supremacy”, in order to be an acknowledged leader??
Does the title “Pope” carry such a definition??
We know that Peter was the acknowledged leader of the Apostles. He is mentioned by name far more than any other apostle in Scripture. He received name change “Rock” from Our Lord Himself. He offered the argument that silenced debate at the Council in Acts 15. These things are evidences of authority - but not “dictator-like supremacy”.

The issue of titles and authority have been endlessly debated here. There is fair evidence for both the Catholic view and the Orthodox view. I am sure that, guided by the Holy Spirit, the two sides will eventually come to a better, and more clear understanding.
Let us pray that it is so…

Peace
James
 
The early Christian Church - established by the Apostles of Christ - was undeniably:
  • catholic, but not Roman
  • orthodox, but not Jewish
  • evangelical, but not Protestant
With his hand-picked Apostles as witnesses, Christ taught humility throughout his ministry on earth. If there is evidence that Peter himself claimed or attempted to exercise dictator-like supremacy over his Apostolic brothers, please present it. The title “Pope” appears to have been applied to him posthumously.

Happy Holidays.
some of the Apostles where Jewish though atleast to start, and they even when they followed Christ followed the jewish law with faith. They did practice the passover.
 
I really Like this!!

You ask for evidence that offers no proof.

Does one have to, “exercise dictator-like supremacy”, in order to be an acknowledged leader??

Does the title “Pope” carry such a definition??

We know that Peter was the acknowledged leader of the Apostles. He is mentioned by name far more than any other apostle in Scripture. He received name change “Rock” from Our Lord Himself. He offered the argument that silenced debate at the Council in Acts 15. These things are evidences of authority - but not “dictator-like supremacy”.

The issue of titles and authority have been endlessly debated here. There is fair evidence for both the Catholic view and the Orthodox view. I am sure that, guided by the Holy Spirit, the two sides will eventually come to a better, and more clear understanding.
Let us pray that it is so…

Peace
James
My point is that I have yet seen evidence that Peter advanced the sort of overbearing papal “mission creep” that was part and parcel of the “reign” of subsequent “Popes”. Their exploits are a matter of history. To deny that pride, ego and worldly political ambition followed immediately on the heels of the perceived supremacy/infallibility thing, is is to ignore that history. The unilateral introduction of doctrinal innovation - never taught by Christ or the Apostles - is what fueled the E/W Schism and everything that followed, including the Protestant Reformation.

And yes, I too pray that Roman Catholic and Orthodox Christian churches would find a way to resolve their differences, sooner rather than later. The dispute itself is insulting to memory of Christ and the Apostles who gave their earthly lives to get it right.
 
It might also help to understand what “house” meant to a 1st century person was probably completely different to what “house” means to a 21st cetury person. Little facts like that are important because it provides a sharper image of what they meant.
IOW, I don’t think they meant 2134 Maple Ave, the last house in in the cul-de-sac with a garage and a pool.
I would very much like to hear more. Please explain. This stuff is interesting to me.

Are you saying that they meant “House of God?”

Please explain.

-Tim-
 
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