Early Church not Catholic

[JRKH]

Well, Catholic/Orthodox yes, but that doesn’t mean that either one has a monopoly on the truth today.

Monopoly - No.
We are happy to share the fullness of Truth, to the best of our abilities, with all who wish to learn it.

Peace
James

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Although one always has to read anything from Wikipedia with some reservation, their entry on “Catholic” is not that bad and may be helpful frame of reference for this discussion.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic

Peace be with you!

 

[Barbkw]

The word Catholic (universal in doctrine and belief) seems only a word - as if the label came about easily and the Church stayed Catholic without commitment, great struggle or great pains.

When reading about the lives of the saints, we learn about the progress of the Church and how she progressed against heresy - either from within the Church body itself or from secular sources.

An interesting thing about heresies is that they form an early time line for Catholic (universal) belief, structure and doctrine.

January 2

Sts. Basil the Great and Gregory Nazianzen
(329-379)

Basil founded what was probably the first monastery in Asia Minor. He is to monks of the East what St. Benedict is to the West, and his principles influence Eastern monasticism today.

Basil was ordained a priest, assisted the archbishop of Caesarea (now southeastern Turkey), and ultimately became archbishop himself, in spite of opposition from some of his suffragan bishops, probably because they foresaw coming reforms.

One of the most damaging heresies in the history of the Church, Arianism, which denied the divinity of Christ, was at its height.

Emperor Valens persecuted orthodox believers, and put great pressure on Basil to remain silent and admit the heretics to communion.

Basil remained firm, and Valens backed down. But trouble remained.

When the great St. Athanasius (May 2) died, the mantle of defender of the faith against Arianism fell upon Basil.

He strove mightily to unite and rally his fellow Catholics who were crushed by tyranny and torn by internal dissension. He was misunderstood, misrepresented, accused of heresy and ambition. Even appeals to the pope brought no response. “For my sins I seem to be unsuccessful in everything.”

He was tireless in pastoral care. He preached twice a day to huge crowds, built a hospital that was called a wonder of the world (as a youth he had organized famine relief and worked in a soup kitchen himself) and fought the prostitution business.

Basil was best known as an orator. His writings, though not recognized greatly in his lifetime, rightly place him among the great teachers of the Church. Seventy-two years after his death, the Council of Chalcedon described him as “the great Basil, minister of grace who has expounded the truth to the whole earth.”

COMMENT: It may be small comfort, but turmoil in the Church today is a mild storm compared to the devastation caused by the Arian heresy, a trauma the Church has never forgotten. Christ did not promise the kind of peace we would love to have—no problems, no opposition, no pain. In one way or another, holiness is always the way of the cross.

St. Gregory Nazianzen

(329-390)

After his baptism at 30, Gregory gladly accepted his friend Basil’s invitation to join him in a newly founded monastery. The solitude was broken when Gregory’s father, a bishop, needed help in his diocese and estate. It seems that Gregory was ordained a priest practically by force, and only reluctantly accepted the responsibility. He skillfully avoided a schism that threatened when his own father made compromises with Arianism.

At 41, Gregory was chosen suffragan bishop of Caesarea and at once came into conflict with Valens, the emperor, who supported the Arians.

An unfortunate by-product of the battle was the cooling of the friendship of two saints. Basil, his archbishop, sent him to a miserable and unhealthy town on the border of unjustly created divisions in his diocese. Basil reproached Gregory for not going to his see.

When protection for Arianism ended with the death of Valens, Gregory was called to rebuild the faith in the great see of Constantinople, which had been under Arian teachers for three decades.

Retiring and sensitive, he dreaded being drawn into the whirlpool of corruption and violence. He first stayed at a friend’s home, which became the only orthodox church in the city. In such surroundings, he began giving the great sermons on the Trinity for which he is famous.

In time, Gregory did rebuild the faith in the city, but at the cost of great suffering, slander, insults and even personal violence. An interloper even tried to take over his bishopric.
His last days were spent in solitude and austerity. He wrote religious poetry, some of it autobiographical, of great depth and beauty. He was acclaimed simply as “the Theologian.”

 

[peace2u2]

Well, Catholic/Orthodox yes, but that doesn’t mean that either one has a monopoly on the truth today.

You will see that any group seeking truth will appear to be reinventing the wheel that the Catholic Church has been using for centuries. And, any group seeking truth is going to end up with some aspect of and to some degree the Catholic faith, even if it does not have Catholic origins because any truth discovered is related to the One, True God who is revealed in His fullness through the Catholic Church.

There are many apects of truth - not just sola scripture as our Protestant brothers and sisters in Christ believe. There is also the Traditions of the Church. Thats right “The Church”. What was the early Church doing 2,000 years ago and is still doing today? Right, celebrating Mass.

Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours. (2 Thessalonians 3:15)

According to this verse, we are to accept both written traditions (such as the Bible), and oral traditions (such as the things that were taught that Scripture is silent on).

But you, remain faithful to what you have learned and believed, because you know from whom you learned it, and that from infancy you have known [the] sacred scriptures, which are capable of giving you wisdom for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. (2 Timothy 3:14-15)

Timothy learned the Scriptures through someone else, namely the Apostles, and this was done through Oral Tradition (which is synonymous with the Tradition Catholics advocate).

The above words from Sacred Scripture that you deny are not my words, but those of Jesus Christ.

Peace 2 U

 

[Cavaradossi]

You will see that any group seeking truth will appear to be reinventing the wheel that the Catholic Church has been using for centuries. And, any group seeking truth is going to end up with some aspect of and to some degree the Catholic faith, even if it does not have Catholic origins because any truth discovered is related to the One, True God who is revealed in His fullness through the Catholic Church.

There are many apects of truth - not just sola scripture as our Protestant brothers and sisters in Christ believe. There is also the Traditions of the Church. Thats right “The Church”. What was the early Church doing 2,000 years ago and is still doing today? Right, celebrating Mass.

Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours. (2 Thessalonians 3:15)

According to this verse, we are to accept both written traditions (such as the Bible), and oral traditions (such as the things that were taught that Scripture is silent on).

But you, remain faithful to what you have learned and believed, because you know from whom you learned it, and that from infancy you have known [the] sacred scriptures, which are capable of giving you wisdom for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. (2 Timothy 3:14-15)

Timothy learned the Scriptures through someone else, namely the Apostles, and this was done through Oral Tradition (which is synonymous with the Tradition Catholics advocate).

The above words from Sacred Scripture that you deny are not my words, but those of Jesus Christ.

Peace 2 U

I don’t think he ever said that he believed in sola scriptura. You are likely misrepresenting what he meant to say.

 

[Whadyamean]

Well, Catholic/Orthodox yes, but that doesn’t mean that either one has a monopoly on the truth today.

Has anyone read Those Incredible Christians by Hugh Schonfield?

From The Publisher:

Many thousands of people no longer know what to believe about Christianity. Much that the Church has taught for centuries is now being challenged: not only is it out of date, say the critics, but also nothing to do with the mind of Jesus and his immediate disciples. How can it be shown to have been the product of human ingenuity and the pressures of circumstances much later than the time of Jesus?

A fascinating reconstruction of the events surrounding the formation of the Church in the first hundred years of its existence. He gives a clear explanation of the individual contributions of Paul and John, the chief theologians, and describes the factions and rivalries, the bid for power by the church of Rome, the forgery of documents (some of them in the New Testament itself), and he deals fully with the conflict between the early Christians and the Roman Empire.

 

[theidler]

Well see, if non-Catholics didn’t do as such, then there would be no reason for Protestants. You have to discredit 2000 years of Church history so that you can give reasons for your Protestant church to exist. If you didn’t revise history, then there would be no other option than to turn Catholic.

Or Orthodox.

 

[ZhaneAugustine]

You could try the Faith of the Early Fathers series
by William A Jurgens

 

[TarkanAttila]

Well, Catholic/Orthodox yes, but that doesn’t mean that either one has a monopoly on the truth today.

Why do Protestants always use this straw man? We don’t claim to have a monopoly on the truth. But while Protestants have SOME of the truth, only the RCC teaches the WHOLE truth. It’s the difference between Wonder Bread and a 100% whole grain loaf. Both nourish, but the whole grain nourishes as completely as a loaf of bread can.

Why would you want only part of the truth when you could have the whole truth? I don’t really understand the Protestant willingness to ignore history. For whether you believe Christ founded His Church on Peter, or on the Apostles, or on Himself, in Matthew 16:18 it’s evident He founded the Church in time. It began at a certain point in history. And it’s continued for 2000 years. Christ gave us the whole truth and nothing but 2000 years ago. Do you really think, really, he would allow the truth to be mixed with lies, or allow people to ignore parts of the truth?

That’s what I hear from Protestants and the like a lot. “We all [Protestants] have the truth, but none of us have the whole truth.” I don’t get how you can profess to certainly believe in something, and yet also preach that you don’t know if others are also right.

For example, how can an infant who was baptised be both validly and invalidly baptised? Or how can the Host both be and not be the Body of Christ? How can the Church be both One and Catholic, yet also divided and cliquish?

 

[CopticChristian]

Well, Catholic/Orthodox yes, but that doesn’t mean that either one has a monopoly on the truth today.

Clarify this for me.

There is one Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church is East and West. In the West it is Roman Catholic and in the East it is Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox.

If neither have the monopoly on the truth today then answer this.

Did someone have the monopoly on the truth in the past and when did this monopoly come to an end so that as you say there is no monopoly?

Where is the truth to be found in your opinion?

How does one find the truth if there is truth to be found and as you say since no one has the monopoly?

If there is truth to be found what is it and is that truth the same for everywhere you go to find it.

I need to know because as a Catholic I want to be able to direct people to the nearest deposit of truth.

 

[Saul69]

If Jesus Christ our Savior were to set foot on this earth today, which He will never do, He would only recognize His CHURCH or congregations who have not added or taken away from His word and whom worship Him according to HIS New Testament.

As he has said MANY ARE CALLED BUT FEW ARE CHOSEN AND FEW THERE BE THAT ENTER IN .

HE IS THE only HEAD OF His church, He and no one else died for His church thats why in the New Testament IT is called The Church of Christ. that is why we who obey His New Testament are called Christians.
John 10:7 *Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
John 10:1 *¶Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

Christ said Hebrews 9:27 *And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: ,no one goes to heaven until after judgement.
Christ also said 2 Peter 1:10 *Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Why do people put their eternal life in human hands when they can know for sure where they will go when they die? Luke 16:19
By studying Christ’s Word they can know where we will be when we die.

Colossians 3:16 *Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
17 *And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

Ephesians 4:1 *¶I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
2 *¶With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
3 *Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4 *There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 *One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 *One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

 

[peace2u2]

Whether we call ourselves Catholic, Orthodox or Protestant, we can all agree that the reason we go to church on Sunday is to worship the One, True God.

Where we disagree is what form this worship should take. Many will agree that Protestant services on Sunday are filled with dynamic & excitiing preaching and awesome and lively music. Worship of God is not meant to “entertain” us.

The way the liturgy was celebrated in the earliest days of the Church can only be found in Catholic and Orthodox liturgies. We don’t send our children off to “sunday school” but instead invite them to the Mass and yes even infants are welcome in our Church. Our Pastor smiles when he hears a baby cry or a toddler express with words…its a sign that their mothers said, “Yes”. Although I do admit our Church has seen some awesome music and our Pastor is vibrant and Christ-centered and gives amazing homilies, but the fact of the matter is when we go to Church on Sunday to celebrate Mass it is all about Jesus and it is complete worship of God. It is nothing less.

The celebration of the Mass is our fulfilling Jesus’ command to “do this in remembrance of me”. We do not claim to sacrifice Jesus again and again at every Mass. St. Paul says Jesus was sacrificed “once for all” in Hebrews 10:10. His sacrifice is mystically “re-presented” for us at every Mass not once a month. Protestants do not beleive in this kind of worship nor could they because Jesus said “do this in remembrace of me” to the apostles who passed this authority on to their successors the bishops. In order to be able to consecrate the Eucharist, one needs to be ordained by a bishop whose authority was handed down from bishop to bishop since the days of the apostles also known as apostolic succession. But our Protestant brothers and sisters in Christ who broke away from the Catholic Church 500 years ago do not have a valid sacramental priesthood no matter how vibrant the minister or how awesome the music.

Pray a Hail Mary with me for the conversion of souls.

 

[SteveVH]

If Jesus Christ our Savior were to set foot on this earth today, which He will never do, He would only recognize His CHURCH or congregations who have not added or taken away from His word and whom worship Him according to HIS New Testament.

Question for you. Where did you get “HIS New Testament”? Seriously, do you know the history of the Bible? Do you know that it was the Catholic Church that gave the New Testament to the rest of the world? Have you ever wondered how that came about?

You had better hope that the Catholic bishops who determined which books would be included in the New Testament were, indeed, led by the Holy Spirit in making this determination. And as for those who have “added or taken away from His word” you should compare the Bible canonized by the Catholic Church to the one from which you quote and then ask the question. You are missing seven books and portions of others which were “taken away” by the Reformation.

I’m not quite sure why you posted the biblical quotes you did so I will refrain from commenting on them.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Whether we call ourselves Catholic, Orthodox or Protestant, we can all agree that the reason we go to church on Sunday is to worship the One, True God.

Where we disagree is what form this worship should take.

Oh, if it were only that simple!

Nonetheless, we pray for reconciliation, so that we may one day be “as one”, as the Lord himself prayed before his Crucifixion.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

If Jesus Christ our Savior were to set foot on this earth today, which He will never do, He would only recognize His CHURCH or congregations who have not added or taken away from His word and whom worship Him according to HIS New Testament.

Did you really mean to say this?

Certainly none calling themselves Christian would have “taken away” the passages below from their own assemblage of Scripture:

For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done. [Matthew 16:27]

Let’s not presume how the Lord will judge - that is reserved to Him alone.

the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son [John 5:22]

If He judges us all in the manner in which we kept his prayful wish for us, “that they may be as one as we are one” [John 17:22], then we shall all burn together.

We continue to pray from the unity of Christ’s Church on earth.

Kryie eleison! Hospodi pomiluj! Lord have mercy!

 

[CopticChristian]

If Jesus Christ our Savior were to set foot on this earth today, which He will never do, He would only recognize His CHURCH or congregations who have not added or taken away from His word and whom worship Him according to HIS New Testament.
As he has said MANY ARE CALLED BUT FEW ARE CHOSEN AND FEW THERE BE THAT ENTER IN .

HE IS THE only HEAD OF His church, He and no one else died for His church thats why in the New Testament IT is called The Church of Christ. that is why we who obey His New Testament are called Christians.
John 10:7 *Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
John 10:1 *¶Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

Christ said Hebrews 9:27 *And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: ,no one goes to heaven until after judgement.
Christ also said 2 Peter 1:10 *Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Why do people put their eternal life in human hands when they can know for sure where they will go when they die? Luke 16:19
**By studying Christ’s Word they **can know where we will be when we die.

Colossians 3:16 *Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
17 *And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

Ephesians 4:1 *¶I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
2 *¶With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
3 *Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4 *There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 *One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 *One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Have you spoken to the Dispensationalists that Jesus is not going to set foot on this earth today?

Jesus will come to see His Church that emobdies the Old and New Testament. There are too many New Testament Christians that do not understand the Covenants of God. He more likely than not will wonder who all these New Testament people are.

So, the real Church is called the Church of Christ. Then that would mean that the Disciples of Christ, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Anglicans and others don’t qualify as His Church and we owe it all to the Campbells in Kentucky. Did you know that there is this guy Smith who went to New York and then says Missouri is where Jesus will return. Can you tell me the name of your Church?

How can I be sure to find Christ’s word. Where is it found? There are no original Scriptures. Where did this word to study come from. Take a look at this site for me and then tell me where I can find the word to study.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=609262

I certainly want in on the action and since you are definite and want people to know the truth, help me, so that I too may join in your belief. Get back to me, OK.

 

[mick321]

The early Christian Church - established by the Apostles of Christ - was undeniably:

• catholic, but not Roman
• orthodox, but not Jewish
• evangelical, but not Protestant

Someone asked why it is difficult for some to believe that the Roman Catholic Church was the only game in town for 1500 years.

After the East-West Schism, the Western (Roman) church embarked on a course that took it further away from Eastern (Orthodox) Christianity. Free from the burden of orthodox conscience, the Western Church went happily on its way, doing what it could get away with, until it ran headlong into the Reformation. And the Protestants split from Rome.

Suddenly, the Body of Christ, under the leadership of successive Bishops of Rome, looked a lot differently from the pre-schismatic Church of Christ and the Apostles.

Independent of the previously mentioned orthodoxy conscience, the Roman Catholic Church laid down its law at Trent, further developed its doctrine at V-1, and totally modernized itself at V-2.

As a result, many mainline Protestant - and even some non-denominational Christian - churches can actually document a longer historic timeline that the modernized Catholic Church.

Why should they believe? They haven’t rejected their traditions.

 

[CopticChristian]

Someone asked why it is difficult for some to** believe **

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Someone asked why it is difficult for some to believe that the Roman Catholic Church was the only game in town for 1500 years.

After the East-West Schism, the Western (Roman) church embarked on a course that took it further away from Eastern (Orthodox) Christianity. Free from the burden of orthodox conscience, the Western Church went happily on its way, doing what it could get away with, until it ran headlong into the Reformation. And the Protestants split from Rome.

Suddenly, the Body of Christ, under the leadership of successive Bishops of Rome, looked a lot differently from the pre-schismatic Church of Christ and the Apostles.

Independent of the previously mentioned orthodoxy conscience, the Roman Catholic Church laid down its law at Trent, further developed its doctrine at V-1, and totally modernized itself at V-2.

As a result, many mainline Protestant - and even some non-denominational Christian - churches can actually document a longer historic timeline that the modernized Catholic Church.

So, in mathematical terms, (2012 - 32) < (2012 - 1517)

Let’s be honest! The Catholic Church was not “the only game in town” for 1500 yrs. But what did exist for a long time was a group of Churches of equal dignity, bound together by love of Christ and faith in God, each with varying traditions and perspectives, but one faith.

Let us recall one of the Lord’s final prayers, offered to God before His perfect sacrifice:

My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one — I in them and you in me — so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. [John 17:20-23]

We do pray for the unity of God’s Church. Amen!

 

[JustaServant]

Still waiting for forensic proof of “alternative christianities”.