Early Church was more Catholic than Protestantism

[po18guy]

How can it be said the early church was more catholic than protestant when there are so many different doctrines and practices in the catholic church of today than in the early church?
You don’t see in the early church:
1-the rosary
2- Marian doctrines
3- celibate leadership

These are just some of the differences between the early church and the catholic church of today. These are not minor differences either.

These are devotions, not dogma. Christ and Paul were not celibate?

Christ’s peace.

 

[Claire_from_DE]

How can it be said the early church was more catholic than protestant when there are so many different doctrines and practices in the catholic church of today than in the early church?
You don’t see in the early church:
1-the rosary
2- Marian doctrines
3- celibate leadership

These are just some of the differences between the early church and the catholic church of today. These are not minor differences either.

1. Rosary is a form of prayer based on the angel’s announcement to Mary, Elizabeth’s recognition of her as the mother of the Lord, the doctrine of the communion of saints, the Lord’s prayer, praise to Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and meditation on events in Jesus’ life. Early Christians didn’t use this form of prayer but it developed from early teachings. They did use the Lord’s prayer and praise to Father, Son, and Spirit.
2. Very few doctrines were fully developed in the early church.
3. Celibate leadership certainly existed. Some of the apostles may have been married (Peter had a mother-in-law) but their wives aren’t mentioned in early writings although other women are mentioned. Paul writes that his personal opinion is that all should be as he is (unmarried). It is true that church discipline has changed in this matter through the centuries. It hasn’t been a matter of doctrine.

Ways the early church was not Protestant:

1. Eucharist central to Christian worship.
2. Reliance on Tradition of the apostles passed on as oral teaching and by letters.
3. Acceptance of the teaching authority of the church and church leaders rather than private interpretation of scripture.

 

[Hisalone]

It’s more like development doctrines. The Catholic Church has its foundation on Jesus Christ, the chief cornerstone and the Apostles.

Eventually the Jewish sect called Nazoreans now Christians formerly split from Judaism on theologian grounds. However, the Church maintain much of its Jewish customs. The Christian Liturgy is based on the Jewish Liturgical type of worship, such as the procession of the Holy Gospel before the Mass starts. That is similiar to the Jewish worship of procession of the Torah.

I disagree completely. The First Century Church worship in liturgy and they believe in the sacrifice of the Mass or Divine Liturgy just like the Catholic Church. They also believe in the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Blessed Sacrament. They also have bishops just like the Church. In the first Century, the Church had Peter as their leader and when he was killed Linus succeeded him, followed by Anacletus or Cletus, then St. Clement of Rome, and down to our current Pope Benedict XVI.

The essential beliefs of the Early Church remain unchanged. Disciplines such as feast, vestments did change but core Christian belief did not change. In the first Century, no Christian had the concept of the Trinity. It was not until 325 AD that CC defined the belief of the Trinity in the Council of Nicea.

My NonDenominationalChurch has Jesus Christ as its cheif cornerstone.
When I read the NT I see nothing like what goes on at mass. When was the last time you were at mass and someone prophesy? Spoke in tongues?
Paul. James have as much leadership in the NT as does Peter.
I could go on and on but my sister is doing well.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

This is certainly the case with Prof. Scott Hahn, and author Mark P. Shea, and many others. Both delved into church history before the Holy Spirit dragged them, kicking and screaming, into the Catholic Church. Both, not coincidentally, are delighted. A search, conducted by a heart which seeks only truth, and which loves Jesus enough to follow Him wherever he leads, will eventually come to the One True Church.

Christ’s peace to all.

Wow, way to put that, TRUTH SETS US FREE, in one faith, one Lord, one baptism, one Holy Catholic Apostolic church, unchanged since Jesus Christ instituted his church on the Rock, kephas, Peter, first Catholic Pope to walk on water with Jesus.

 

[Mannyfit75]

My Non Denominational Church has Jesus Christ as its cheif cornerstone.
When I read the NT I see nothing like what goes on at mass. When was the last time you were at mass and someone prophesy? Spoke in tongues?

Speaking in tongue is not required. I don’t see how that would save someone. I believe received the Body and Blood of the Lord has more saving power than speaking in tongue.

At Mass, we received the Second Person of the Trinity. We eat our God just as Jesus commanded.

As far as Early Christians, are concern, only the Eastern Orthodox and the Catholic Church believes in the Real Presence.

Paul. James have as much leadership in the NT as does Peter.
I could go on and on but my sister is doing well.

James is consider the first bishop of Jerusalem. Peter overall has authority over all the Apostles.

 

[Mannyfit75]

How can it be said the early church was more catholic than protestant when there are so many different doctrines and practices in the catholic church of today than in the early church?
You don’t see in the early church:
1-the rosary
2- Marian doctrines
3- celibate leadership

The rosary stem out of the reciting 150 Psalms that started as early as the 2nd and 3rd Century, or 4th.

Marian doctrines. Oh, yes they did. They believe Mary is a Perpetual Virgin, Sinless, Dormition of Mary (Precursor to the Assumption), and the belief the Mary is the Mother of God.

Celibacy is a discipline. It wasn’t there in the beginning. It was later common in the Western Churches…

These are just some of the differences between the early church and the catholic church of today. These are not minor differences either.

The Early Church is the Catholic Church.

 

[Mannyfit75]

These are devotions, not dogma. Christ and Paul were not celibate?

Christ’s peace.

He can’t tell the difference between devotions and dogmas.

 

[Metaron]

The church are the members of Christ. And the gates of hell has not prevailed over it. But Christ, the Apostles did say that believers would be persecuted. The ultimate victory will belong to the Lord.

No the Church is a visible institution, as in the parable of the wheat and the tares. How could the Church be some mystical body of Christians (it is, but not only that) when it has tares [wicked and unbelievers] in it?

 

[GatorMommy]

Trinity is obvious in the Bible. There are many Theophanies–including the hospitality of Abraham, the Baptism of Our Lord in the Jordan, and the Transfiguration. However, I do not see convincing evidence of supreme infallibility.

As is the papacy. Follow me here …

• Read John 10:1-21 – This is the parable of “The Good Shepherd.” Read it and remember what Christ says.
• Now, flip over to John 21:15-19. Jesus asks Simon three times if he loved him. After Simon replies “yes” each time Christ tells him to feed and tend Christ’s sheep.
• In John 1:42, Christ does something interesting. He calls Simon to Him and CHANGES HIS NAME. He says, “You are Simon, son of John; you will be called Kephas.” Kephas, in Aramaic, the language of Christ, literally means ROCK, is translated into English as Peter. The Greek workd for stone or rock is petros which is where we get Peter. (You gotta love etymology!) Neither Kephas, or the Greek Petros, is attested as a personal name before Christian times.
• Ok, so Simon has a new name and a new mission … to tend and feed the flock. Now go to **Matthew 16:13-20. **
• "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavely Father. And so I say to you, your are Peter, and upon this Rock I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of Heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
• Quite literally, that passage says, “You are Kephas on on this Kephas I will build my church.” Remarkable, especially since the church IS built right on top of Old Kephas to this day… in more ways than one.

 

[GatorMommy]

How can it be said the early church was more catholic than protestant when there are so many different doctrines and practices in the catholic church of today than in the early church?
You don’t see in the early church:
1-the rosary
2- Marian doctrines
3- celibate leadership

These are just some of the differences between the early church and the catholic church of today. These are not minor differences either.

I love it when Protestants knock Theotokos!

You choose three examples to “prove” the early church not Catholic?

1.) The Rosary was handed down to us by St. Dominic in the 12th century. Early church? No. But it was here long before the Protestants were!

2.) Marian Doctrines? Such as …

3.) Celibacy? Really? Darn, I could have sworn that St. Paul preaches about how a celibate person is better devoted to God than a married one. I could have also sworn that the apostles left their families – mothers, fathers, spouses, children – behind to follow Him. And Christ Himself was celibate.

 

[Hisalone]

Speaking in tongue is not required. I don’t see how that would save someone. I believe received the Body and Blood of the Lord has more saving power than speaking in tongue.

At Mass, we received the Second Person of the Trinity. We eat our God just as Jesus commanded.

As far as Early Christians, are concern, only the Eastern Orthodox and the Catholic Church believes in the Real Presence.

James is consider the first bishop of Jerusalem. Peter overall has authority over all the Apostles.

But Manny we have the Lords Supper and as Paul said I wish ALL could speak in tongues. The 1st century church didi. Todays Catholic mass does not.
There is a huge difference between the 2

 

[Hisalone]

No the Church is a visible institution, as in the parable of the wheat and the tares. How could the Church be some mystical body of Christians (it is, but not only that) when it has tares [wicked and unbelievers] in it?

All who are part of the Body of Christ are part of His Church. The Catholic Church has never had the authority to exclude us from either.

 

[Mickey]

Development is like the mustard tree from the mustard seed. Same plant, looks different. Everything that is in the tree was already in the seed and the seedling.

But perhaps it was not a mustard seed at all. Perhaps it was a thorn!

 

[Mickey]

As is the papacy. Follow me here …
Read John 10:1-21 – This is the parable of “The Good Shepherd.” Read it and remember what Christ says.

Jesus Christ is the Door. Jesus Christ is the Good Shepherd.

Now, flip over to John 21:15-19. Jesus asks Simon three times if he loved him. After Simon replies “yes” each time Christ tells him to feed and tend Christ’s sheep.

All the Apostles are shepherds. Why does he ask St Peter three times? Because St Peter denied Jesus Christ three times. A triple denial calls for a triple confession of affirmation.

In John 1:42, Christ does something interesting. He calls Simon to Him and CHANGES HIS NAME. He says, “You are Simon, son of John; you will be called Kephas.” Kephas, in Aramaic, the language of Christ, literally means ROCK, is translated into English as Peter. The Greek workd for stone or rock is petros which is where we get Peter. (You gotta love etymology!) Neither Kephas, or the Greek Petros, is attested as a personal name before Christian times.

We all know that Jesus Christ is the Rock–the Cornerstone. St Peter reaffirms this in his epistle. Jesus Christ is looking at St Peter’s confession (revealed to him by the Father) as a foundation for all mankind to confess. We too can be like St Peter if we confess that Jesus Christ is the Messiah, the Son of the Living God.

Now go to **Matthew 16:13-20. **

See above.

 

[guanophore]

How can it be said the early church was more catholic than protestant when there are so many different doctrines and practices in the catholic church of today than in the early church?
You don’t see in the early church:
1-the rosary
2- Marian doctrines
3- celibate leadership

These are just some of the differences between the early church and the catholic church of today. These are not minor differences either.

None of these things you mention are central elements of the Christian faith. Practices and disciplines are not the same as doctrine. The doctrine has not changed. The rosary is just a method of prayer, and many have been used and changed over time. Central tenets of the Christian faith are found in the Apostles creed.

Celibate life was promoted by Jesus and Paul, and practiced since the beginning of the Church. However, it is not required. Jesus said “let him who can receive it, receive it”. It is a gift that not everyone has been given.

 

[guanophore]

But Manny we have the Lords Supper and as Paul said I wish ALL could speak in tongues. The 1st century church didi. Todays Catholic mass does not.
There is a huge difference between the 2

There is a huge difference, Hisalone. The early church believed that the Eucharist was the Body and Blood of the Lord and not a symbol.

 

[Hisalone]

There is a huge difference, Hisalone. The early church believed that the Eucharist was the Body and Blood of the Lord and not a symbol.

The Lords Supper is a spiritual meal it was in the 1st century and it is today.
Please address why there is no prophesy and speaking in tongues during the mass.
That is something that we both can agree was present in the 1st century that is not today.
If it is no0t present how can you say the mass is the same as it was in the 1st century?

 

[justasking4]

Mannyfit75;3362326]
Originally Posted by justasking4
How can it be said the early church was more catholic than protestant when there are so many different doctrines and practices in the catholic church of today than in the early church?
You don’t see in the early church:
1-the rosary
2- Marian doctrines
3- celibate leadership

Mannyfit75
The rosary stem out of the reciting 150 Psalms that started as early as the 2nd and 3rd Century, or 4th.

Are you saying people were praying the hail Mary in the 2nd - 3rd centuries?
Secondly, the reciting of the Psallms is not the same as saying the rosary.
Third, the rosary did not come about for centuries.
This alone shows this was not a practice of the early church.

Mannyfit75
Marian doctrines. Oh, yes they did. They believe Mary is a Perpetual Virgin, Sinless, Dormition of Mary (Precursor to the Assumption), and the belief the Mary is the Mother of God.

Lets take the Assumption of Mary. The Catholic Encyclopedia admits that the first “genuine” written references to the Assumption come from authors who lived in the sixth to the eight centuries:

“If we consult genuine writings in the East, it is mentioned in the sermons of St. Andrew of Crete, St. John Damascene, St. Modestus of Jerusalem and others. In the West, St. Gregory of Tours (De gloria mart., I, iv) mentions it first.”2

St. Gregory lived in the sixth century, while St John Damascene belongs to the eight. Thus for several centuries in the early Church, there is no mention by the church fathers of the bodily assumption of Mary. Ireneus, Jerome, Augustine, Ambrose and the others church fathers said nothing about it. Writing in 377 A.D., the church father Epiphanius states that no-one knows Mary’s end.

What this shows is that the early church did not believe in her assumption. This is another indicator that the early church was not Roman Catholic.

Mannyfit75
Celibacy is a discipline. It wasn’t there in the beginning. It was later common in the Western Churches…

Another difference.

Quote:
These are just some of the differences between the early church and the catholic church of today. These are not minor differences either.

Mannyfit75
The Early Church is the Catholic Church.

The early church did not believe many of the doctrines of the later Roman Catholic church. These few examples above show that.

The protestant churches i’m familar with don’t believe in these doctrines or practices so that would mean at least on these points protestants are more in line with the early church than the Roman Catholic church.

 

[lurdes]

The earlly church was more Jewish than it was Roman.

more Jewish or more Roma still was Catholic

 

[guanophore]

Are you saying people were praying the hail Mary in the 2nd - 3rd centuries?

yes. It is just a scriptural prayer.

Secondly, the reciting of the Psallms is not the same as saying the rosary.

That depends. The Psalms were Jesus’ prayer book. It was customary for observant Jews to pray the Psalms daily. Some Christians had them all memorized, and prayed 150 daily. They used a string of beads to keep track. When the prayers of devotion were introduced to some who had not memorized all the Psalms, they used different prayers on the beads.

Third, the rosary did not come about for centuries.
This alone shows this was not a practice of the early church.

Using a string of beads for prayers and meditation is a very ancient practice. Granted, the prayer beads were not called a Rosary until late middle ages.

Lets take the Assumption of Mary. …
What this shows is that the early church did not believe in her assumption. This is another indicator that the early church was not Roman Catholic.

Yes and no. The early church did believe in the assumption of Mary. However, the Roman Rite was not separate the majority of the first millenia. For that reason, it cannot be said to be “Roman”.

The early church did not believe many of the doctrines of the later Roman Catholic church. These few examples above show that.

I think you have your devotionals and disciplines confused with doctrines.

The protestant churches i’m familar with don’t believe in these doctrines or practices so that would mean at least on these points protestants are more in line with the early church than the Roman Catholic church.

Do you think that your personal experience is representative of Protestants around the world?