Early islamic historians, how important are they to muslims?

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worldcitizen said:
The Bible says Christ was bodily crucified = correct

The Quran says Christ’s Spirit was not crucified = correct.

Result = Bible + Quran = in harmony
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The Bible doesn’t say anything. It is **interpreted **by the Church who gave it. Jesus didn’t give out Bibles (but you know that). 🙂

Anything else has to followed by Exegesis.

BTW I’ll give you a quote (and you can do a Google by pasting the words), from an Islamic website which has this stated:

"This is yet another wonderful 3-hour debate and video by
Dr. Zakir Naik where he thoroughly demonstrated from
the Bible’s New Testament that Jesus Christ was never
crucified, nor did he ever rise from the dead. "

If you wish you can tackle them first.😃

MJ
 
Chabambou.

I’m sure you’ve probably read the wikipedia article on the early histories of the life of Prophet Muhammad… A good review of the early composers of the Sira literature are included

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_biographies_of_Muhammad

I think from my own very peripheral reading there is general agreement.

While it’s not really an academic work I liked reading the book 'Muhammad and His Successors" by Washington Irving…

Beyond that I also have found some sources in the writings attributed to Ali ibn abi Talib that are interesting.
 
worldcitizen said:
The Bible says Christ was bodily crucified = correct

The Quran says Christ’s Spirit was not crucified = correct.

Result = Bible + Quran = in harmony
Click to expand...
If Quran and the Bible are in harmony why is there Islam ?
 
MartinJordan said:
The Bible doesn’t say anything. It is **interpreted **by the Church who gave it. Jesus didn’t give out Bibles (but you know that). 🙂

Anything else has to followed by Exegesis.

BTW I’ll give you a quote (and you can do a Google by pasting the words), from an Islamic website which has this stated:

"This is yet another wonderful 3-hour debate and video by
Dr. Zakir Naik where he thoroughly demonstrated from
the Bible’s New Testament that Jesus Christ was never
crucified, nor did he ever rise from the dead. "

If you wish you can tackle them first.😃

MJ
Click to expand...
I watched the 3 hour video and enjoyed it. But they both make major errors in their interpretations of their own Holy Books.

At first they sounded impressive but as it continued it became monotonous and their complete ignorance of their own Books became evident. The Dr’s ideas were just as superstitious as the Reverend’s.

The Dr rushed quotes while the Reverend seemed better able to try and reason and got some good points across and I thought he was very courageous.

Saying Christ got taken up to heaven alive, he completely missed the point of the verse in the Quran and made a fool out of himself after trying to use logic to explain away all the Christian’s views.

Glad we got Baha’u’llah and Abdul-Baha.
 
Chabambou said:
Hi, nice to meet you too, and thanks for the reply 🙂

Charitably i must admit, while the suggestion you proposed may work for you, it may not work for a muslim scholar; because they place a very large emphasis on tradition and its transmissions. And by this i mean, they treat the hadiths (particularly the bukhari and muslim hadith collectors) second to the quran. This is because the hadiths are the supposed sayings and actions of muhummad among other things.
Which relates to my initial question- if Ibn Ishaq’s work, the earliest known to scholars, is considered 70% unreliable, then what other earliest source can authentic hadiths, like those from bukhari, originate?
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Ibn Ishaq is recognised to be pioneer of writting biography of Muhammad.

I do not know the percentage of validity but it is not % 70 unreliable but it is at least % 70 reliable. He was criticised by some manners. He did not report the chain references in some Hadiths but He reported the first source. Relaters of Hadiths were used to report of references from the last to first source. And Ibn Ishaq took many poems source of which were not certain. And He took and related from interpretations of OT and NT and that was criticised by Islamic scholars.

If Ibn Ishaq could be criticised then it demonstrate that Islamic scholars were very careful and that criticism each others help to find the most true. There is no without fail true work in human act. The verses of Qur’an were recorded by prophet but Haiths were recorded later so there should be some problems with Hadiths. But that does not mean that all Hadiths are unreliable. Muslims have thousands valid Hadiths. There are many criterions of Hadiths which take long to discuss.

The main source of Islam is Qur’an and Hadiths are secondary. That means Muslims first look at Qur’an for an issue and if they cannot see then they look at Hadiths.
 
worldcitizen said:
I watched the 3 hour video and enjoyed it. But they both make major errors in their interpretations of their own Holy Books.

At first they sounded impressive but as it continued it became monotonous and their complete ignorance of their own Books became evident. The Dr’s ideas were just as superstitious as the Reverend’s.

The Dr rushed quotes while the Reverend seemed better able to try and reason and got some good points across and I thought he was very courageous.

Saying Christ got taken up to heaven alive, he completely missed the point of the verse in the Quran and made a fool out of himself after trying to use logic to explain away all the Christian’s views.

Glad we got Baha’u’llah and Abdul-Baha.
Click to expand...
That’s not the point. They are Muslims so your problem is with them. Not the Bible NT.

MJ
 
worldcitizen said:
The Bible says Christ was bodily crucified = correct

The Quran says Christ’s Spirit was not crucified = correct.

Result = Bible + Quran = in harmony
Click to expand...
Muslims says Jesus is merely man, not deity. Muslims say the human Jesus did not die, but appear to be only, fainted, swoon or replaced by another body. Christians say he did and rose on the 3rd day. Christians say Jesus is God. Christians believes Christ death and resurrection brings redemption to the whole world. Muslims don’t believe in any of this.

So who is right? You can’t make everyone right in this case. Since the Christian God doesn’t lie, one of these books must be wrong. Or the Christian God is different from the Muslim God and both can be right. (but I don’t think so since the Quran references the Bible but the Bible doesn’t reference the Quran)

What do Bahais say who Jesus is? Is he God or not? If we can not agree on this simple question, then obviously your efforts to group the prophets together as if they are all in sync is a futile exercise.
 
MartinJordan said:
That’s not the point. They are Muslims so your problem is with them. Not the Bible NT.

MJ
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I know that but it was a great debate. I’d give it to the Christian anyway. His answers seemed more from the heart.
 
ericc said:
Muslims says Jesus is merely man, not deity. Muslims say the human Jesus did not die, but appear to be only, fainted, swoon or replaced by another body. Christians say he did and rose on the 3rd day. Christians say Jesus is God. Christians believes Christ death and resurrection brings redemption to the whole world. Muslims don’t believe in any of this.

So who is right? You can’t make everyone right in this case. Since the Christian God doesn’t lie, one of these books must be wrong. Or the Christian God is different from the Muslim God and both can be right. (but I don’t think so since the Quran references the Bible but the Bible doesn’t reference the Quran)

What do Bahais say who Jesus is? Is he God or not? If we can not agree on this simple question, then obviously your efforts to group the prophets together as if they are all in sync is a futile exercise.
Click to expand...
Simple, just use the word Manifestation.
 
Techno2000 said:
Simple, just use the word Manifestation.
Click to expand...
  1. Jesus died. He was dead after being crucified. Right? The New Testament account is RIGHT. Ok?
  2. The Quran is saying they thought they got rid of Christ once and for all - that kind of death that Christ would be dead, buried and FORGOTTEN. But the Quran says NO. They thought they had gotten rid of Him for good dead, buried and FORGOTTEN BUT they never REALLY killed Him )only His body) because He’s STILL AROUND in people’s hearts all over the world. So Christ’s spirit never really died. They thought they’d killed the CHRIST spirit AS WELL The Christ PHENOMENA, His popularity etc but after 3 days the disciples realised that He wasn’t really dead and went teaching everywhere.
It’s very simple.
 
worldcitizen said:
  1. Jesus died. He was dead after being crucified. Right? The New Testament account is RIGHT. Ok?
  2. The Quran is saying they thought they got rid of Christ once and for all - that kind of death that Christ would be dead, buried and FORGOTTEN. But the Quran says NO. They thought they had gotten rid of Him for good dead, buried and FORGOTTEN BUT they never REALLY killed Him )only His body) because He’s STILL AROUND in people’s hearts all over the world. So Christ’s spirit never really died. They thought they’d killed the CHRIST spirit AS WELL The Christ PHENOMENA, His popularity etc but after 3 days the** disciples realised that He wasn’t really dead and went teaching everywhere.**
It’s very simple.
Click to expand...
:confused:
 
ericc said:
Muslims says Jesus is merely man, not deity. Muslims say the human Jesus did not die, but appear to be only, fainted, swoon or replaced by another body. Christians say he did and rose on the 3rd day. Christians say Jesus is God. Christians believes Christ death and resurrection brings redemption to the whole world. Muslims don’t believe in any of this.

So who is right? You can’t make everyone right in this case. Since the Christian God doesn’t lie, one of these books must be wrong. Or the Christian God is different from the Muslim God and both can be right. (but I don’t think so since the Quran references the Bible but the Bible doesn’t reference the Quran)

What do Bahais say who Jesus is? Is he God or not? If we can not agree on this simple question, then obviously your efforts to group the prophets together as if they are all in sync is a futile exercise.
Click to expand...
Jesus never said ‘I am God’. But Jesus did say He was a prophet. Christians read that into His Words. We agree with anything He called Himself. Proohet, Son of God, Son of Man, Messiah, Bread of Life, The Way and the Truth. He had so many titles and we AGREE with them all. Only He never called Himself the essence of God.

Jesus was everything Christians say He is except God in essence as He denies it. If He were God in essence He would know everything and He said below there’s some things only the Father knows. Very clear.

This is where Christ denies He’s God because there’s things Gid knows that Christ doesn’t

Matthew 24:36

But concerning that day and hour **no one knows, not even the angels of the heavens, nor the Son, **except the Father only.

Prophet, Christ as ( Thompson’s Chain Bible)

Deuteronomy 18:18
Matthew 21:11
Matthew 21:46
Mark 6:15
Luke 7:16
Luke 13:33
Luke 24:19
John 4:19
John 6:14
John 7:40
John 9:17
Acts 3:22
 
Techno2000 said:
:confused:
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After He died and everything was over didn’t the disciples become galvanised that He was the Son of God after all and went spreading the good news of the gospel everywhere?

I’m not talking about a short time I mean eventually they scattered and spread the gospel.

They didn’t just sit around playing cards!!!

Anyway Joey. I love having spiritual food with you.
 
worldcitizen said:
Jesus never said ‘I am God’.
Click to expand...
"Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”**

Revelation 22:13**
 
worldcitizen said:
After** He died** and everything was over didn’t the disciples become galvanised that He was the Son of God after all and went spreading the good news of the gospel everywhere?

I’m not talking about a short time I mean eventually they scattered and spread the gospel.

They didn’t just sit around playing cards!!!

Anyway Joey. I love having spiritual food with you.
Click to expand...
disciples realised that He** wasn’t really dead** and went teaching everywhere.:confused:
 
Techno2000 said:
"Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”****

Revelation 22:13
Click to expand...
Well what do we have here?

To Him the Author of the Apocalypse had alluded as the “Glory of God,” as “Alpha and Omega,” “the Beginning and the End,” “the First and the Last.”

(Shoghi Effendi)

Shoghi Effendi says it alludes to Baha’u’llah. His Interpretaions are authoritative.

Behold I come quickly is referring to Christ coming in the glory of the Father which is talking about Baha’u’llah’s Coming.
 
worldcitizen said:
Well what do we have here?

To Him the Author of the Apocalypse had alluded as the “Glory of God,” as “Alpha and Omega,” “the Beginning and the End,” “the First and the Last.”

(Shoghi Effendi)

Shoghi Effendi says it alludes to . His Interpretaions are authoritative.

Behold I come quickly is referring to Christ coming in the glory of the Father which is talking about Baha’u’llah’s Coming.
Click to expand...
What are the rewards that Baha’u’llah has rendered to every man according to what he has done. ?
 
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