Early islamic historians, how important are they to muslims?

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Servant19 said:
There were many statements made in the Old and New Testaments to connect humanity at that time to a more tangible understanding of the nature of God. Case in point is that God is not love. Love is an attribute of God, so God is “LOVING”…not God is love.

These statements were intended for a reader of 2000 years ago Martin. They hold value today, but our spiritual perception has evolved incredibly, our intellect and language has developed incredibly. The “time relatedness” of these statements is clearly evident.
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Not for readers Servant. It was a practice that was meant to passed on to our children and our children’s children. The texts put together that we read however is for the Church and to be applied today as much as they applied then… God is Forever. Love is integral always, because God is Love.
Secondly, you say :
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and yet the de fide teaching states that the **essence of God is incomprehensible. **How do you explain this contradiction?
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You’re confusing Essence with Knowledge of God.

MJ
 
Servant19 said:
I do listen to Jesus. It is quite disheartening to hear consistently that I am not.

I have yet to see any Scripture stating that God is comprehensible.
Can you show me please?

All I see is a de fide teaching stating that “God’s essence is incomprehensible to the blessed in heaven”

Do you have Scripture that states otherwise?

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The Unity of God: His existence and Nature

The Existence of God

God, our Creator and Lord, can be known with certainty, by the natural light of reason from created things. (De Fide)
The Existence of God can be proved by means of causality (Sentent. fidei proxima)
God’s existence is not merely an object of natural rational knowledge, but also an object of supernatural faith. (De Fide)
The Nature of God

Our natural knowledge of God in this world is not an immediate, intuitive cognition, but a mediate, abstractive knowledge, because it is attained through the knowledge of creatures. (Sent. certa.)
Our knowledge of God here below is not proper (cognition propria) but analogical (cognition analoga or analogica). (Sent. certa.
The Blessed in Heaven possess an immediate intuitive knowledge of the Divine Essence. (De Fide)
The Immediate Vision of God transcends the natural power of cognition of the human soul, and is therefore supernatural. (De Fide)
The soul, for the Immediate Vision of God, requires the Light of Glory. (De Fide D 475.)
God’s Essence is also incomprehensible to the blessed in Heaven. (De Fide)
The Attributes or Qualities of God

The Divine Attributes are really identical among themselves and with the Divine Essence. (De Fide)
God is absolutely perfect. (De Fide)
God is actually infinite in every perfection. (De Fide)
God is absolutely simple. (De Fide)
There is only One God. (De Fide)
The One God is, in the ontological sense, The True God. (De Fide)
God is absolute Veracity. (De Fide)
God is absolutely faithful. (De Fide)
God is absolute ontological Goodness in Himself and in relation to others. (De Fide)
God is absolute Benignity. (De Fide) D 1782.
God is absolutely immutable. (De Fide)
God is eternal. (De Fide)
God is immense or absolutely immeasurable. (De Fide)
God is everywhere present in created space. (De Fide)
God’s Knowledge is Infinite. (De Fide)
God knows all that is merely possible by the knowledge of simple intelligence (scientia simplicis intelligentiae). (De Fide)
God knows all real things in the past, the present and the future. (scientia visionis). (De Fide)
By the knowledge of vision (scientia visionis) God also foresees the future free acts of the rational creatures with infallible certainty. (De Fide)
God also knows the conditioned future free actions with infallible certainty (scientia futuribilium). (Sent. communis)
God’s Divine Will is Infinite. (De Fide)
God loves Himself of necessity, but loves and wills the creation of extra-Divine things, on the other hand, with freedom. (De Fide)
God is almighty. (De Fide)
God is the Lord of the heavens and of the earth. (De Fide)
God is infinitely just. (De Fide)
God is infinitely merciful. (De Fide)
The Doctrine of the Triune God

In God there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. Each of the Three Persons possesses the one (numerical) Divine Essence. (De Fide)
In God there are two Internal Divine Processions. (De Fide)
The Divine Persons, not the Divine Nature, are the subject of the Internal Divine processions (in the active and the passive sense). (De Fide)
The Second Divine Person proceeds from the First Divine Person by Generation, and is therefore related to Him as Son to a Father. (De Fide)
The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and from the Son as from a Single Principle through a single Spiration. (De Fide)
The Son proceeds from the Intellect of the Father by way of Generation. (Sent. certa)
The Holy Spirit proceeds from the will or from the mutual love of the Father and the Son. (Sent. certa)
The Holy Spirit does not proceed through generation but through spiration. (De Fide)
The Three Divine Persons are in One Another. (De Fide)
All the ad extra Activities of God are common to the Three Persons. (De Fide)
The Father sends the Son: the Father and the Son send the Holy Spirit. (Sent. certa)
The Trinity of God can only be known through Divine Revelation (Sent. fidei proxima.)

catholictreasury.info/trinity.php
 
JimmyDFG said:
But in message #70 Tony stated that baha’u’llah is the King of Kings
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You seem to be unable to understand that Baha’u’llah IS Jesus in spirit and in power.

So what you assign to Baha’u’llah is what you assign to Jesus 🙂

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Techno2000 said:
The Unity of God: His existence and Nature

The Existence of God

God, our Creator and Lord, can be known with certainty, by the natural light of reason from created things. (De Fide)
The Existence of God can be proved by means of causality (Sentent. fidei proxima)
God’s existence is not merely an object of natural rational knowledge, but also an object of supernatural faith. (De Fide)
The Nature of God

Our natural knowledge of God in this world is not an immediate, intuitive cognition, but a mediate, abstractive knowledge, because it is attained through the knowledge of creatures. (Sent. certa.)
Our knowledge of God here below is not proper (cognition propria) but analogical (cognition analoga or analogica). (Sent. certa.
The Blessed in Heaven possess an immediate intuitive knowledge of the Divine Essence. (De Fide)
The Immediate Vision of God transcends the natural power of cognition of the human soul, and is therefore supernatural. (De Fide)
The soul, for the Immediate Vision of God, requires the Light of Glory. (De Fide D 475.)
God’s Essence is also incomprehensible to the blessed in Heaven. (De Fide)
The Attributes or Qualities of God

The Divine Attributes are really identical among themselves and with the Divine Essence. (De Fide)
God is absolutely perfect. (De Fide)
God is actually infinite in every perfection. (De Fide)
God is absolutely simple. (De Fide)
There is only One God. (De Fide)
The One God is, in the ontological sense, The True God. (De Fide)
God is absolute Veracity. (De Fide)
God is absolutely faithful. (De Fide)
God is absolute ontological Goodness in Himself and in relation to others. (De Fide)
God is absolute Benignity. (De Fide) D 1782.
God is absolutely immutable. (De Fide)
God is eternal. (De Fide)
God is immense or absolutely immeasurable. (De Fide)
God is everywhere present in created space. (De Fide)
God’s Knowledge is Infinite. (De Fide)
God knows all that is merely possible by the knowledge of simple intelligence (scientia simplicis intelligentiae). (De Fide)
God knows all real things in the past, the present and the future. (scientia visionis). (De Fide)
By the knowledge of vision (scientia visionis) God also foresees the future free acts of the rational creatures with infallible certainty. (De Fide)
God also knows the conditioned future free actions with infallible certainty (scientia futuribilium). (Sent. communis)
God’s Divine Will is Infinite. (De Fide)
God loves Himself of necessity, but loves and wills the creation of extra-Divine things, on the other hand, with freedom. (De Fide)
God is almighty. (De Fide)
God is the Lord of the heavens and of the earth. (De Fide)
God is infinitely just. (De Fide)
God is infinitely merciful. (De Fide)
The Doctrine of the Triune God

In God there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. Each of the Three Persons possesses the one (numerical) Divine Essence. (De Fide)
In God there are two Internal Divine Processions. (De Fide)
The Divine Persons, not the Divine Nature, are the subject of the Internal Divine processions (in the active and the passive sense). (De Fide)
The Second Divine Person proceeds from the First Divine Person by Generation, and is therefore related to Him as Son to a Father. (De Fide)
The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and from the Son as from a Single Principle through a single Spiration. (De Fide)
The Son proceeds from the Intellect of the Father by way of Generation. (Sent. certa)
The Holy Spirit proceeds from the will or from the mutual love of the Father and the Son. (Sent. certa)
The Holy Spirit does not proceed through generation but through spiration. (De Fide)
The Three Divine Persons are in One Another. (De Fide)
All the ad extra Activities of God are common to the Three Persons. (De Fide)
The Father sends the Son: the Father and the Son send the Holy Spirit. (Sent. certa)
The Trinity of God can only be known through Divine Revelation (Sent. fidei proxima.)

catholictreasury.info/trinity.php
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I never said “knowledge of”, I said “incomprehensible” 🙂

Please note what I highlighted in red above…

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MartinJordan said:
Not for readers Servant. It was a practice that was meant to passed on to our children and our children’s children. The texts put together that we read however is for the Church and to be applied today as much as they applied then… God is Forever. Love is integral always, because God is Love.

You’re confusing Essence with Knowledge of God.

MJ
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I think clarification is required on what is meant when Baha’is and Muslims mean by God’s unknowability

In Catholicism, this term is referred to as “incomprehensibility”

Also, when we refer to God as being incomprehensible (to use the Catholic term), we are talking about God’s essence, the Deus a se, not the Deus pro nobis.

Hope that helps clarify why God in His essence is not the King of Kings, He is far far far above names and titles in His essence, so far in fact, that even the blessed in heaven find His essence incomprehensible.

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Servant19 said:
I never said “knowledge of”, I said “incomprehensible” 🙂

Please note what I highlighted in red above…

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Knowing God still remains. God is Love. And we know that. Later you changed the subject to Essence.

MJ
 
Servant19 said:
I think clarification is required on what is meant when Baha’is and Muslims mean by God’s unknowability

In Catholicism, this term is referred to as “incomprehensibility”

Also, when we refer to God as being incomprehensible (to use the Catholic term), we are talking about God’s essence, the Deus a se, not the Deus pro nobis.

Hope that helps clarify why God in His essence is not the King of Kings, He is far far far above names and titles in His essence, so far in fact, that even the blessed in heaven find His essence incomprehensible.

.
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Again see the Scripture and come back to discussion. It’s easy to find.

You said: “I would say that if God is unknowable, and incomprehensible, then calling Him names and titles makes Him knowable and comprehensible.”

King of Kings is not the title of God. God is beyond titles and names."

You would say. That is your own subjective viewpoint.

See the Scripture. It states “God is King of Kings, the Lord of Lords” (why I do the homework for you, I don’t know:p)

.

MJ
 
Servant19 said:
I never said “knowledge of”, I said “incomprehensible” 🙂

Please note what I highlighted in red above…

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Is that kinda like how Baha’u’llah can speak like he is God, and at the same time say God is Unknowable ? 🤷
 
The Quran is the Word of God and is protected by God from error. Hadiths are not.

The Quran speaks of when people will abandon the Quran for hadiths.

Referring to the Day of Resurrection it is written…

25:30 The messenger said, “My Lord, my people have deserted this Quran.”*

The Quran establishes the truth and authenticity of the Bab and Baha’u’llah.

As Baha’u’llah is mentioned in the Quran and refers to Himself as the King of Kings this automatically nullifies the Hadith as it is contrary to the Quran’s depiction of Baha’u’llah as Lord.

39:69

And the earth shineth with the light of her Lord, and the Book is set up, and the prophets and the witnesses are brought, and it is judged between them with truth, and they are not wronged.

50:41

And listen on the day when the crier crieth from a near place,

(Baha’u’llah’s call was from nearby Persia)

“He Who is the King of Kings hath appeared, arrayed in His most wondrous glory, and is summoning you unto Himself, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.” Baha’u’llah

The Quran speaks of Baha’u’llah as Lord which is a heavenly title and as the Lord calls Himself thr King of Kings the Quran supports the Lord and whatever He says and does and depicts Him as a judge. Therefore the Hadith is false.
 
MartinJordan said:
Again see the Scripture and come back to discussion. It’s easy to find.

MJ
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Judeo-Christian Scripture never talks about God in His essence. The word “essence” is not mentioned once in the New Testament in reference to God. All Judeo-Christian reference to God is in relation to His Names, Attributes and Titles.

Jesus is the Manifestation of His Names and Attributes, and that is why you can call Jesus King of Kings, but that is not a title reference to God’s Essence which is beyond comprehensible names and titles etc…

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Techno2000 said:
Is that kinda like how Baha’u’llah can speak like he is God, and at the same time say God is Unknowable ? 🤷
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Off topic…too much off topic Techno 🙂
Bring it up in the other “comparative religion” thread, maybe?

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Servant19 said:
Judeo-Christian Scripture never talks about God in His essence. The word “essence” is not mentioned once in the New Testament in reference to God. All Judeo-Christian reference to God is in relation to His Names, Attributes and Titles.

Jesus is the Manifestation of His Names and Attributes, and that is why you can call Jesus King of Kings, but that is not a title reference to God’s Essence which is beyond comprehensible names and titles etc…

.
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We never brought up God’s Essence. You did. And Im telling you what Scripture says.

MJ
 
Servant19 said:
…and I am humbly sharing with you that Judeo-Christian Scripture is not talking about the Essence of God. 🙂

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Still let’s get back to your question. “What Scripture?”

Have you found it?

MJ
 
Servant19 said:
…and I am humbly sharing with you that Judeo-Christian Scripture is not talking about the Essence of God. 🙂

.
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His Church does…

The Nicene Creed
I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.

I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, **con****substantial ****(essence,nature) ** with the Father;

FOURTH LATERAN COUNCIL (1215)

Constitutions
  1. Confession of Faith
We firmly believe and simply confess that there is only one true God, eternal and immeasurable, almighty, unchangeable, incomprehensible and ineffable, Father, Son and holy Spirit, three persons but one absolutely simple** essence, substance or nature .**

ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/LATERAN4.HTM
 
Techno2000 said:
His Church does…

The Nicene Creed
I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.

I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, **con****substantial ****(essence,nature) ** with the Father;

FOURTH LATERAN COUNCIL (1215)

Constitutions
  1. Confession of Faith
We firmly believe and simply confess that there is only one true God, eternal and immeasurable, almighty, unchangeable, incomprehensible and ineffable, Father, Son and holy Spirit, three persons but one absolutely simple** essence, substance or nature .**

ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/LATERAN4.HTM
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Why would the Creed use a word not used by any Gospel writer or any Apostle, to formulate a doctrine?

:eek::eek:
(injecting man made words into the Word of God)

.
 
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