Early islamic historians, how important are they to muslims?

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MartinJordan said:
No anti Islamic agenda here, Otherwise the mods would intervene, 🙂

MJ
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I don’t think so.

We have seen the statement that Muhammad was deceived by Satan too many times, uncensored here.

Obviously what I see as anti-Islamic agenda is either not noticed by the mods or this sentiment is not shared by the mods.

This “Muhammad was deceived by Satan” foundation formulates all the other statements made attempting to erroneously discredit Muhammad and His Divine Revelation.

Our friend HolyCrusader007 in the other thread here (forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13756380&postcount=182) has been the only exception. What a shining example of educated Catholicism he/she is!

.
 
Servant19 said:
Thankyou jhargus.

Let us take the crucifixion for example. The Holy Quran states:

“And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah’s messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them…”

Prophet Muhammad is rebuking those who “say” that they killed the Messiah, and revealing the truth behind His Reality not being dead at all.

Now let us look at what Prophet Muhammad states about the Muslim martyrs:

“And say not of those who are killed in the Way of Allah, “They are dead.” Nay, they are living, but you perceive (it) not. [Al-Baqrah, vers 154]”

Is Prophet Muhammad denying the sacrifice made by the martyrs here?

If not, then what is your understanding as a result of these two verses? .
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I would say this is no more than slit of hand double talk
 
Servant19 said:
I don’t think so.

We have seen the statement that Muhammad was deceived by Satan too many times, uncensored here.

Obviously what I see as anti-Islamic agenda is either not noticed by the mods or this sentiment is not shared by the mods.

This “Muhammad was deceived by Satan” foundation formulates all the other statements made attempting to erroneously discredit Muhammad and His Divine Revelation.

Our friend HolyCrusader007 in the other thread here (forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13756380&postcount=182) has been the only exception. What a shining example of educated Catholicism he/she is!

.
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Do you not think calling Baha’i the fulfillment of Catholicism as being anti-Christian?
 
Servant,
I think some where down the line this threads focus got changed. I realize that since since the Baha’i came from Islam that may appear as an attack against them. It’s not, this thread is about the early Islamic historians and their importance. Clearly they are very important. On the Sunni side sahi Bukhari is vital in learning the life of Mohammed everything from how he entered a room to how he kept his beard is there . On the Shia side they don’t use sahi Bukhari but some one else. I can’t seem to find out which source is historically first. The wiki links provided didn’t have that date. If sahi Bukhari is first and the most accurate then the good and bad of Muhammad is accurately represented.
 
gmcbroom said:
Servant,
I think some where down the line this threads focus got changed. I realize that since since the Baha’i came from Islam that may appear as an attack against them. It’s not, this thread is about the early Islamic historians and their importance. Clearly they are very important. On the Sunni side sahi Bukhari is vital in learning the life of Mohammed everything from how he entered a room to how he kept his beard is there . On the Shia side they don’t use sahi Bukhari but some one else. I can’t seem to find out which source is historically first. The wiki links provided didn’t have that date. If sahi Bukhari is first and the most accurate then the good and bad of Muhammad is accurately represented.
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The earliest Shiah and Sunni source combined dear gmc is the Holy Quran.

One doesn’t need to be a Muslim and know how Muhammad grew His beard. The true Muslim only needs the Quran and the hadiths that conform 100% with it, and nothing else.

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JimmyDFG said:
Do you not think calling Baha’i the fulfillment of Catholicism as being anti-Christian?
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Absolutely not

The Baha’i Faith is highest pinnacle of the Christian spirit.

A saintly life in the Baha’i Faith is the accompaniment of as many other souls to become saints as possible. This is done through example and through selfless education.

Let us not get off topic any more please Jimmy.

.
 
Servant19 said:
Thankyou jhargus.

Let us take the crucifixion for example. The Holy Quran states:

“And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah’s messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them…”

Prophet Muhammad is rebuking those who “say” that they killed the Messiah, and revealing the truth behind His Reality not being dead at all.

Now let us look at what Prophet Muhammad states about the Muslim martyrs:

“And say not of those who are killed in the Way of Allah, “They are dead.” Nay, they are living, but you perceive (it) not. [Al-Baqrah, vers 154]”

Is Prophet Muhammad denying the sacrifice made by the martyrs here?

If not, then what is your understanding as a result of these two verses?

.
Click to expand...
Quran 5:75
The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a messenger; [other] messengers have passed on before him. And his mother was a supporter of truth. They both used to eat food. Look how We make clear to them the signs; then look how they are deluded.

“O Jesus, I will cause you to die, and exalt you to My presence, and clear you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve till the day of Judgment.”

Here God made with Jesus four promises:
1.“Cause you to die” (tawaffa), i.e., Jesus would not be killed by the Jews, but would die a natural death.

2.“Exalt you in My presence” (raf‘a), i.e., he would not be crucified, which the Jews sought to do to prove him accursed, but rather he would receive Divine nearness. In fact, raf‘a is the opposite of wad‘a, the latter meaning disgrace and the former meaning honouring.

3.“Clear you of those who disbelieve” (tathir), i.e., he would be cleared of the Jews’ allegations against him, as he was by the Holy Prophet Muhammad.

4.“Make those who follow you above those who disbelieve till the day of Judgement”, i.e. his followers would forever have the upper hand over his rejectors.

In Islamic terms where and when did Jesus die?
 
JimmyDFG said:
Quran 5:75
The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a messenger; [other] messengers have passed on before him. And his mother was a supporter of truth. They both used to eat food. Look how We make clear to them the signs; then look how they are deluded.

“O Jesus, I will cause you to die, and exalt you to My presence, and clear you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve till the day of Judgment.”

Here God made with Jesus four promises:
1.“Cause you to die” (tawaffa), i.e., Jesus would not be killed by the Jews, but would die a natural death.

2.“Exalt you in My presence” (raf‘a), i.e., he would not be crucified, which the Jews sought to do to prove him accursed, but rather he would receive Divine nearness. In fact, raf‘a is the opposite of wad‘a, the latter meaning disgrace and the former meaning honouring.

3.“Clear you of those who disbelieve” (tathir), i.e., he would be cleared of the Jews’ allegations against him, as he was by the Holy Prophet Muhammad.

4.“Make those who follow you above those who disbelieve till the day of Judgement”, i.e. his followers would forever have the upper hand over his rejectors.

In Islamic terms where and when did Jesus die?
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The Quran focuses on the Jesus that descended from heaven and ascended to heaven.

The process of descent and ascent sees no death.

It is always alive, the Life Giving Spirit as described by St.Peter.

.
 
Servant19 said:
The Quran focuses on the Jesus that descended from heaven and ascended to heaven.

The process of descent and ascent sees no death.

It is always alive, the Life Giving Spirit as described by St.Peter.

.
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Why do you ignore and/or contradict the quotation from the Koran?
 
Servant19 said:
The Quran focuses on the Jesus that descended from heaven and ascended to heaven.

The process of descent and ascent sees no death.

It is always alive, the Life Giving Spirit as described by St.Peter.

.
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This does not answer my question Servant. In Islamic terms how and when did Jesus die a natural human death?

Quran 5:75
The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a messenger; [other] messengers have passed on before him. And his mother was a supporter of truth. They both used to eat food. Look how We make clear to them the signs; then look how they are deluded.

Quran 19:33
And peace is on me the day I was born and the day I will die and the day I am raised alive."

Quran 4:157
And [for] their saying, “Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah .” And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.
 
Servant,
So the Koran is a historian? If memory recalls Mohammed is only mentioned 4 times in the Koran. How does anyone know what he looks like our how he acts? It sounds trivial but people have died over this. Those who chronicle his life influence those that follow and live the faith.hence my question. Was the first historian Shia or Sunni? If Sunni then we have an account of Mohammed in accord with those who first ran across Muslims both good as discussed by the poster HolyCrusader or not so good as accounted by St. John damascene.
 
As for those that follow Islam or some the Baha’i faith I think how they read their scriptures influences how they live their faith. As Jesus said when talking with someone about the Torah,“how do you read it?” The same goes for Christians. But I’m getting off topic. The early Islamic historians are very important to Muslims but it’s probably more accurate to say they are more important to some Muslims though not all. Any Muslim that wants to learn about the beginning or formation of their faith is going to read a historian they will look into chains of transmission and they will compare that to the Islam as practiced today. Some are drawn to Isis others are not. The historians are very important.
 
gmcbroom said:
Servant,
So the Koran is a historian? If memory recalls Mohammed is only mentioned 4 times in the Koran. How does anyone know what he looks like our how he acts? It sounds trivial but people have died over this. Those who chronicle his life influence those that follow and live the faith.hence my question. Was the first historian Shia or Sunni? If Sunni then we have an account of Mohammed in accord with those who first ran across Muslims both good as discussed by the poster HolyCrusader or not so good as accounted by St. John damascene.
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Muhammad appointed Imam Ali as the First Successor, thus it is Shia that is the rightful line of Succession.

If you read the Book of Revelation it was foretold that the rejection of this succession resulted in the Faith of Muhammad being one of Negation instead of Affirmation. It is foretold also by Muhammad in this passage “There is no God, but God” which is said by all Muslims. It is the Negative before the Affirmation.

Ali was very young and of course all those that had influence and thought better then Muhammad chose not to follow this appointed youth but those with pride.

Regards Tony
 
gmcbroom said:
As for those that follow Islam or some the Baha’i faith I think how they read their script ions influences how they live their faith. As Jesus said when talking with someone about the Torah,“how do you read it?”
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As guidance for all Mankind under one God 😉

God bless and Regards Tony
 
Servant19 said:
Absolutely not

The Baha’i Faith is highest pinnacle of the Christian spirit.

A saintly life in the Baha’i Faith is the accompaniment of as many other souls to become saints as possible. This is done through example and through selfless education.

Let us not get off topic any more please Jimmy.

.
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Not according to Thorton Chase. And that is where the topic about this so called "Christian spirit " has been falsified and very condescending. A thread i may consider starting.

MJ
 
MartinJordan said:
The God that allows 3 wives? No thanks.

MJ
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I will reply to that comment as it shows lack of understanding of why the law of those times would allow this to be so. I will not post as to why, as I will let fair minded people search that for themselves.

God bless all with Fair Mindness.

Regards to all Tony
 
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