Early Man and Adam and Eve

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we are listening to a series from St Paul Communications Genesis to Jesus, and enjoy, however our granddaughters have a question. Where does the caveman and his family as they call him, fit into the time line? Were they at the time of the dinosaurs or after, and how does this fit with Adam and Eve if they were the first man and woman? thanks
 
Those who believe in evolution (I don’t) don’t take Adam and Eve literally. They claim Genesis is metaphorical.

I believe Adam and Eve really existed. The cave men were obviously their offspring. If I had to guess, I’d say the cave men existed before Noah since Noah had the intelligence to build the ark and make wine.
 
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Where does the caveman and his family as they call him, fit into the time line? Were they at the time of the dinosaurs or after, and how does this fit with Adam and Eve if they were the first man and woman? thanks
You’re going to see different opinions here. I’ll give you my understanding.

(1) The Church does not bind us to interpret Genesis as 100% absolute literal historical history. It holds that those specific details are for science to review. But it does bind us to believe that there was a historical first true man and woman (who we call Adam and Eve) who sinned against God and that all true men and women are descended from them and have inherited original sin from them. The idea of a garden, of a fruit, may be taken as symbols in place of historical fact. Or to state it another way, there was a historical event that is recorded in Genesis through a lot of symbols. You’re also welcome to believe in an absolutely literal interpretation.

(2) Let’s say you choose to go with the “history told with symbols” route. Our best scientific understanding is that dinosaurs lived over 65,000,000 years before humans ever walked the earth. Cave men did not come until long after.

How do cave me fit with Adam and Eve? That’s a loaded question, and one we don’t have a clear answer on. On the one hand, biologically, it doesn’t appear there was ever just two human beings. On the other, we’re bound by faith to believe there were only two. Can that seeming discrepancy be resolved? Some believe so. Now, this next part is only a speculative, possible way to resolve the issue. It’s not absolute. It’s not bound by faith. It’s not necessarily the only resolution. But some have proposed a distinction between biological humans without a rational soul (who would be very, very smart and social animals but incapable of abstract thinking) and true humans, who are biologically the same but have a rational soul. Some propose that there was a large population of biological humans, but at some point God created the first two, true humans (Adam and Eve). They sinned against God, and their descendants interbred with the biologically identical proto-humans, and the offspring between these couplings were born with rational souls and so were true humans, and eventually all remaining humans had rational souls. It offers an explanation for where Adam and Eve’s children found spouses. Even with abstract thinking, their children would have had a very primitive culture and language and may not have seemed leaps above the proto-humans at that point in history.

If instead one believes all reality was created about 6,000 years ago, the explanation would be different.

Now, is this something you can or want to try explaining to your granddaughters? I don’t know how old they are. Perhaps you can just tell them what we must believe as Catholics and that some questions have to be answered by science, and some questions we may never have a perfect answer to, not because there aren’t answers, but because it’s hard to get perfect facts on events and culture from hundreds of thousands of years ago.
 
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"Adam and Eve: Real People

"It is equally impermissible to dismiss the story of Adam and Eve and the fall (Gen. 2–3) as a fiction. A question often raised in this context is whether the human race descended from an original pair of two human beings (a teaching known as monogenism) or a pool of early human couples (a teaching known as polygenism).

"In this regard, Pope Pius XII stated: “When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains either that after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parents of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now, it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the teaching authority of the Church proposed with regard to original sin which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam in which through generation is passed onto all and is in everyone as his own” ( Humani Generis 37).

“The story of the creation and fall of man is a true one, even if not written entirely according to modern literary techniques. The Catechism states, “The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man. Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents” (CCC 390).”
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Do you believe in special creation?
I’ve seen that term used for different things. To try and boil it down, first, let me say I believe in a historical Adam and Eve, fall, and original as dogma. I have opinions on the rest, evolution, etc… as I have opinions on what are the best explanations, and what are the best ways to obtains explanations, but I’m not dogmatically committed to specifics.

Do I believe every living thing was created in its present and immediate form at the first instant of time? No. Though everything in the forms they have at whatever moment in time have been eternally known and intended by God.

Do I believe every human soul is created immediately by God? Yes, dogmatically on this point.

Do I believe at some point in history God ensouled two biological human beings? Yes… kind of. I’m flexible. Could Adam have been conceived naturally but given a true human soul by God at conception? Yes. Could Adam have been created separately, not by natural generation from other “proto-humans” (see earlier post), but specially? Maybe even out of the earth in a garden? Even if he was biologically identical with proto-humans? And then Eve from his literal rib, and then after the Fall were kicked out into the world we know and then interbred with the “proto-humans”? Well, yes, that’s possible, too. I’m not absolutely committed to one or the other.
 
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"Adam and Eve: Real People
For the OP, my post has Humani Generis in mind. The distinctions carefully account for the points in it.

Edit: Just to expand off of this and my prior posts, scientific studies at this time show that at no point in human history was the genetic population reduced down to two individuals. The proposal discussed in my posts get around the seeming theological and scientific discrepancies by proposing a distinction between genetic polygenism and metaphysical/theological monogenism. And this isn’t my proposal, but one put forward by other Catholic thinkers. And again, this isn’t a dogmatic proposal or the only possible one, but just a speculative possibility that reconciles seeming conflicts.
 
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The conflicts are quite real. Either Adam and Eve were our first parents, literally, or they were not. If Original Sin did not literally occur then Jesus Christ would not have to be sent, be born and die as a sacrifice for all men, and rise again.
 
The conflicts are quite real. Either Adam and Eve were our first parents, literally, or they were not. If Original Sin did not literally occur then Jesus Christ would not have to be sent, be born and die as a sacrifice for all men, and rise again.
Did you read the rest of my posts? They were real and just two people. We are all descended from them. They committed the original sin, which we inherit from them (in addition to our human nature) through natural generation.
 
Well, I don’t think that’s technically true.

Original Sin in Catholicism is the absence of supernatural gifts — things not owed to humanity, in the first place.

Even if Original Sin as traditionally understood in terms of a singular fall didn’t occur, humanity would still be at enmity with God through their own sins against him. We would still need Christ’s redeeming grace.

But anyway, I accept Original Sin and evolution.
 
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Please explain how evolution fits into all this.
I’m having trouble understanding how you don’t see where it fits, assuming you read other posts in the topic… and the half dozen other times we’ve directly discussed this.

Skeptical? Yeah, sure. But how do you not see where it’s supposed to fit? I don’t see the gap I’m supposed to fill, again assuming you’ve read everything.
 
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Now, this next part is only a speculative, possible way to resolve the issue. It’s not absolute. It’s not bound by faith. It’s not necessarily the only resolution. But some have proposed a distinction between biological humans without a rational soul (who would be very, very smart and social animals but incapable of abstract thinking) and true humans, who are biologically the same but have a rational soul. Some propose that there was a large population of biological humans, but at some point God created the first two, true humans (Adam and Eve). They sinned against God, and their descendants interbred with the biologically identical proto-humans, and the offspring between these couplings were born with rational souls and so were true humans, and eventually all remaining humans had rational souls. It offers an explanation for where Adam and Eve’s children found spouses. Even with abstract thinking, their children would have had a very primitive culture and language and may not have seemed leaps above the proto-humans at that point in history.
What are some other theories? I agree with the one you proposed but am looking for more possibilities.
 
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Edit: Just to expand off of this and my prior posts, scientific studies at this time show that at no point in human history was the genetic population reduced down to two individuals. The proposal discussed in my posts get around the seeming theological and scientific discrepancies by proposing a distinction between genetic polygenism and metaphysical/theological monogenism. And this isn’t my proposal, but one put forward by other Catholic thinkers. And again, this isn’t a dogmatic proposal or the only possible one, but just a speculative possibility that reconciles seeming conflicts.
I adhere to this theory and first heard of it by Ed Feser.
 
It is obvious there were no first two humans. Two first true humans maybe, with a soul and all those shenanigans. I would imagine having just two humans would cause a whole lotta incest, which is against natural law.
 
It is obvious there were no first two humans. Two first true humans maybe, with a soul and all those shenanigans. I would imagine having just two humans would cause a whole lotta incest, which is against natural law.
Science has pretty much established that there was never a bottleneck of fewer that 10,000 or so individuals, ever, so Wesrock and Fesers theory makes the most sense to me, although I’m open to other theories as long as they do make sense.
 
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Amazing. So, there were two humans that God decided to drop souls into but not the rest? Quite strange.
 
Amazing. So, there were two humans that God decided to drop souls into but not the rest? Quite strange.
How do you reconcile your theory with the fact there were never, ever fewer than approx. 10,000 individuals on earth?
 
Those who believe in evolution (I don’t) don’t take Adam and Eve literally. They claim Genesis is metaphorical.
This is patently false. Atheists don’t believe in Adam and Eve, but plenty of us Catholics who believe in evolution also believe in Adam and Eve.

Adam and Eve are our first parents. Whether they arose out of evolutionary processes, or were created wholesale from the clay of the Earth, they are distinct from cavemen. They were given souls, and made different from the rest of creation.
 
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