Easter Greeting From the Mormons.

[Aramis]

I still have no idea how people can consider Mormons to be non-christian.

Their theology and Christology is so flawed as to make their faith incompatible with the churches of the 1st 3 Ecumenical Councils.

Their version of theosis is heretical; they teach that men may become gods themselves.
Their understanding of the holy spirit is borderline on heresy.
They claim that the church was abandoned by Christ and the Holy Spirit until restored by Joseph Smith. This ignores Matthew 16:17:20.

They are not true christians, in the sense that was defined by the councils. That they worship the same God, this is true, but they have sorely misunderstood the message and the methods of Salvation. They are good people, but at best are para-christian, in the same way the Gnostic Christians were/are; they do not hold Truth, tho’ they think they do.

 

[mormonboy]

Rescue what? LDS are not Christian. You can say it however you like, as many ways as you like, it is all based on the same fact: LDS do not recognize the One True God. In fact, your leaders give sermons about how the One True God is false doctrine. You can’t be a Christian if you don’t believe in the Christian God.

This discussion gets old really quick… If we are not christian what are we? I would assume our shared belief in Jesus Christ as the Savior would qualify us as chrisitian…

 

[ParkerD]

Chesterton,
So let me get this straight. You think the Nicene council were elected by the world, including all who would ever live thereafter, to define the word “Christianity”. And you’re not calling them “pompous”?

Just because a word means something to you and your friends, does not mean the word means the same thing to me and my friends. Especially not when the word has to do with deeply felt Biblically founded beliefs for which the Bible itself did not give the definition you have ascribed to the word.

 

[tundramom]

Steph,
I think you had good reason to be offended, and to stop and correct misconceptions. Sometimes all a person can do who has been ridiculed, belittled and scorned for so long and has held their tongue, is to laugh as a kind of release of a lot of frustration. I think that was the kind of laughter you heard–not a mocking laughter, but a collective release of frustration at having been misunderstood by so many people. (So many writers in these threads exemplify what the Mormons “hear” all the time.)

But you have been kind, thoughtful, and respectful, so I hope you will know that they were not laughing at you and your earnestly held beliefs. Remember, sometimes laughter is a cathartic release of complex sentiments. Have a great day!

Hi ParkerD,
Have you recently viewed the video? I used to be a Mormon. I remember well those same kind of sentiments in Seminary. Unfortunately, I am ashamed to say, I was one of those laughing. I have no doubt that part of the laughter was a cathartic release… but I doubt very highly that that’s all it was. If you view the video and see in context what the laughter came from, Mr. Holland’s own mockery of my beliefs, you will see for yourself that it wasn’t a defense mechanism.

in Christ
Steph

** it’s about 5 minutes into the video if you take the time to watch it. **

 

[RebeccaJ]

As I was saying…

Chesterton,
So let me get this straight. You think the Nicene council were elected by the world, including all who would ever live thereafter, to define the word “Christianity”. And you’re not calling them “pompous”?

Just because a word means something to you and your friends, does not mean the word means the same thing to me and my friends. Especially not when the word has to do with deeply felt Biblically founded beliefs for which the Bible itself did not give the definition you have ascribed to the word.

 

[ParkerD]

Steph,
I did watch the replay from the link you posted. I had also watched the original talk at the time it was given. I didn’t laugh at the time, and admit I was uncomfortable with the laughter, and perhaps the tone of that particular segment of the talk. So I hear where you’re coming from. But sometimes we have to cut people a little slack, no?

Have a good day.

 

[RebeccaJ]

This discussion gets old really quick… If we are not christian what are we? I would assume our shared belief in Jesus Christ as the Savior would qualify us as chrisitian…

Certainly I believe Mormons desire to follow Jesus.

Baptism is how a person is initiated into Christ’s Church. It is the beginning of formal discipleship. Is it enough to say “I follow”? Even as an atheist, I believed Jesus was a real historical figure with revolutionary humanist ideas that I was in agreement with. I had no belief in God. Was I a Christian then?

A Christian is one who chooses to follow Jesus, as a disciple. This decision begins with conversion, followed by a valid baptism. LDS are followers of Jesus, who have not been converted and accepted a valid baptism.

This is not meant to cause offense. It is a fact.

 

[why_me]

I have absolutely no respect for Mr. Holland. In last year’s Fall conference (I think) he gave a talk about being Christian.

I don’t think any Mormon realizes how much he mocked Christianity. The laughter from the audience about the Trinity was very telling as well.

Missionaries brought this video to my home. I sat through it politely and then asked if we could go through it and I stopped it when I wanted to point out error in what Mr. Holland was saying. At the laughter part even the missionaries and the man they brought with them appeared embarrased.

in Christ
Steph

youtube.com/watch?v=-yPQR4UlXqs

I see nothing embarrassing in the laughter. A speaker can not be responsible for the reaction of the audience. It did not seem that he was making a joke of it. However, he made some good points. He also spoke about the bodily form of god. It seems that he was addressing the points that many critics on this forum have. And perhaps that is your problem: he answered your questions.

 

[tundramom]

I see nothing embarrassing in the laughter. A speaker can not be responsible for the reaction of the audience. It did not seem that he was making a joke of it. However, he made some good points. He also spoke about the bodily form of god. It seems that he was addressing the points that many critics on this forum have. And perhaps that is your problem: he answered your questions.

No whyme. That’s not my problem at all. I didn’t have questions.

in Christ
Steph

 

[Stephen168]

The laughter from the audience about the Trinity was very telling as well.

When I heard him describe the triune God, this scene flashed into my mind:
Catholic Girl: My boyfriend is tall, dark, and handsome.
First Mormon Girl: How can he be all three? Is he tall or dark or handsome? I’m so confused.
Second Mormon Girl: I saw him. He isn’t dark, so he is not tall, or handsome.

 

[mormonboy]

Certainly I believe Mormons desire to follow Jesus.

Baptism is how a person is initiated into Christ’s Church. It is the beginning of formal discipleship. Is it enough to say “I follow”? Even as an atheist, I believed Jesus was a real historical figure with revolutionary humanist ideas that I was in agreement with. I had no belief in God. Was I a Christian then?

A Christian is one who chooses to follow Jesus, as a disciple. This decision begins with conversion, followed by a valid baptism. LDS are followers of Jesus, who have not been converted and accepted a valid baptism.

This is not meant to cause offense. It is a fact.

By your definition no one is Christian but Catholics(at least in your eyes)?

A valid baptism must be performed by someone given God’s authority. LDS is the only church with this authority, making the baptism valid. So, I would say Mormons are Christians.

 

[Magnus467]

I see nothing embarrassing in the laughter. A speaker can not be responsible for the reaction of the audience. It did not seem that he was making a joke of it. However, he made some good points. He also spoke about the bodily form of god. It seems that he was addressing the points that many critics on this forum have. And perhaps that is your problem: he answered your questions.

That is a ridiculous statement about speaking. (sorry if this is off-topic). I have given several speeches in front of relatively large audiences. You plan audience reactions.

 

[mormonboy]

That is a ridiculous statement about speaking. (sorry if this is off-topic). I have given several speeches in front of relatively large audiences. You plan audience reactions.

Just because you plan them, doesn’t mean they always happen the way you want them to.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

I can’t open the original link. What was it about? Was it the sermon Jeffrey Holland gave called None Were With Him? Because I thought that sermon was really good.

 

[mormonboy]

I can’t open the original link. What was it about? Was it the sermon Jeffrey Holland gave called None Were With Him? Because I thought that sermon was really good.

I am not sure which one they were talking about specifically, but I think it is “The Only True God and Jesus Christ Whom He Hath Sent’” byJeffrey R. Holland. I may be wrong.

That discourse you referenced, I really like as well… I like every one of his talks… I think he is my favorite to listen to of all the apostles.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

I am not sure which one they were talking about specifically, but I think it is “The Only True God and Jesus Christ Whom He Hath Sent’” byJeffrey R. Holland. I may be wrong.

That discourse you referenced, I really like as well… I like every one of his talks… I think he is my favorite to listen to of all the apostles.

A friend of mine (LDS) gave me the link to it. It was really beautiful, about how alone Christ was at the end, but God was really always near him. I’ll have to check out more of his stuff. (So you call them “discourses” not “sermons”?)

 

[mormonboy]

A friend of mine (LDS) gave me the link to it. It was really beautiful, about how alone Christ was at the end, but God was really always near him. I’ll have to check out more of his stuff. (So you call them “discourses” not “sermons”?)

I usually don’t call it either actually… haha. In the LDS church, we usually call it a TALK. I called it a discourse because I was afraid you wouldn’t know what I meant. Jeffrey R. Holland is bold but very sincere. I can just tell he is a true apostle by the way he speaks. He touches me everytime.

btw, the “talk” you listened to is going to go down in history (for the lds at least) as one of the most impacting of all time.

 

[RebeccaJ]

By your definition no one is Christian but Catholics(at least in your eyes)?

no

A valid baptism must be performed by someone given God’s authority. LDS is the only church with this authority, making the baptism valid. So, I would say Mormons are Christians.

A lie that your church has taught you.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

I usually don’t call it either actually… haha. In the LDS church, we usually call it a TALK. I called it a discourse because I was afraid you wouldn’t know what I meant. Jeffrey R. Holland is bold but very sincere. I can just tell he is a true apostle by the way he speaks. He touches me everytime.

btw, the “talk” you listened to is going to go down in history (for the lds at least) as one of the most impacting of all time.

Well It was impressive. I think non- LDS people should listen to it or read it.

 

[mormonboy]

A friend of mine (LDS) gave me the link to it. It was really beautiful, about how alone Christ was at the end, but God was really always near him. I’ll have to check out more of his stuff. (So you call them “discourses” not “sermons”?)

I agree. It is too bad a lot of people can only see the negative in the LDS church.