Easter Greeting From the Mormons.

[dianaiad]

Have you ever read Psalm 22? That’s how it begins and it describes the passion of Christ

usccb.org/nab/bible/psalms/psalm22.htm

Yes, and it is beautiful…and does not in any way fix the problem; the psalm also asks why God has forsaken the people and is a prayer for Him not to do so–to return to the people.

 

[dianaiad]

The LDS claim Christ pulled the holy spirit from the church; this means Christ lied. Sorry, but they are at best severe heretics. And their sunday ward services a parody of the Roman Mass.

We do not claim that Christ 'pulled the Holy Spirit from the church." It wasn’t Christ that turned away; it never is. It’s always us…as it was in the early church. We don’t claim that CHRIST apostatized from the church, y’know. It was entirely the other way around.

 

[mormonboy]

The LDS claim Christ pulled the holy spirit from the church; this means Christ lied. Sorry, but they are at best severe heretics. And their sunday ward services a parody of the Roman Mass.

You are quite off on your assumption. The wickedness of the people at the time caused the spirit to withdraw.

 

[RebeccaJ]

You could certainly fool me.

If you thought you were, you were. If you thought you were not, then you were not.

Which definition you would qualify as a humanistic follower of the man Jesus with whose opinions you agreed.

You blew it as soon as you started adding to the list, Rebecca. NOWHERE is there any officially accepted definition of the word “Christian” that included “conversion and valid baptism.” You may wish it did, but it simply does not.

Again; “Christian” does not mean “saved,” or “correct,” or “true,” or anything like that. It simply means that the belief system the Christian follows is based around Jesus Christ’s teachings as that person believes them to be.

Oh, and the believer kinda needs to declare himself to be a Christian; calling someone “Christian” who objects to the title is just plain rude: that’s why it’s OK to not define Jehovah’s Witnesses as Christian; not because they believe different things about Christ, but because they don’t want to be called “Christian.”

Even though they actually, y’know…are.

I blew nothing. You are offended at truth, y’know.

 

[RebeccaJ]

We do not claim that Christ 'pulled the Holy Spirit from the church." It wasn’t Christ that turned away; it never is. It’s always us…as it was in the early church. We don’t claim that CHRIST apostatized from the church, y’know. It was entirely the other way around.

Yes, all those people who believed in Jesus Christ, protected truth, and the thousands who were martyred. They were turning away. I don’t think there is a shovel big enough for this pile.

 

[Aramis]

You are quite off on your assumption. The wickedness of the people at the time caused the spirit to withdraw.

The idea that the entirety of the church could be destroyed is counter to the gospels. It is the largest of the LDS heresies; see Matt. 16. The gates of hell shall not prevail against it… withdrawal of the holy spirit would, in fact, be the gates of hell prevailing against it, for without the spirit, a church is the hands of the devil, not of God.

Therefore, either Christ lied, Christ was ignorant of the future, or the “Great Apostasy” is a lie. Take your pick, in any of the three cases, it denounces the mormon faith; in the first two, it also denounces all other christianity.

 

[ricko]

Oh, and the believer kinda needs to declare himself to be a Christian; calling someone “Christian” who objects to the title is just plain rude: that’s why it’s OK to not define Jehovah’s Witnesses as Christian; not because they believe different things about Christ, but because they don’t want to be called “Christian.”

I have never heard or read that JWs do not consider themselves Christian, as proof here are statements from two of their web sites and they have no problem being called Christians

Let me just say that Jehovah’s Witnesses are good people. For the most part, they are sincere, honest-hearted, law-abiding Christians
jehovahs-witnesses.net/about4.html

Are you Christians?
Yes. We follow Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and put faith in the ransom sacrifice he provided for the salvation of mankind. We imitate his example in preaching and teaching and in our dealings with fellow humans. We also look forward to living in true peace on earth under his heavenly Kingdom.
jw-media.org/beliefs/beliefsfaq.htm

 

[dianaiad]

Jesus was speaking to the Father.

Yeah…and asking why He forsook Jesus. A cry in the darkness…and no matter how you look at it, it is rather a strong indication that there are two very separate People here—or else why would Jesus HAVE to ‘speak to the Father,’ and how could He ask THAT question in any case, if the Catholic view of the Trinity were true?

I’m just asking, y’know.

If you return with ‘it’s a mystery and we are content to have it be so,’ that’s fine. However,you can’t then decide that we are WRONG about this; it’s a mystery, right?

 

[dianaiad]

I blew nothing. You are offended at truth, y’know.

Goodness, Rebecca; I don’t see the word ‘offended’ in my post anywhere.

I am simply pointing out that your ‘truth’ is not seen as such by a great many other people, and it is rather illogical, even silly, of you to expect those who think you are incorrect about your beliefs regarding Jesus should bow to your declaration of what ‘Christian’ means.

C’mon. The definition of “Christian” doesn’t have a whole lot to do with “Truth” as such, except for the basic truth that the teachings of Jesus Christ are at the basis of Christian belief systems. Not the ‘true interpretation’ of them, but simply that the belief system identifies His teachings as the basis for their doctrines.

You are still stuck in the idea that “Christian” means “he who believes the same thing I do.”

Sorry.

It doesn’t–and it is as silly of you to insist that I accept your judgment of my Christianity as it would be of a Ford owner to accept the judgment of the Chrysler owner that only Chryslers can be motor vehicles.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Yes, and it is beautiful…and does not in any way fix the problem; the psalm also asks why God has forsaken the people and is a prayer for Him not to do so–to return to the people.

It doesn’t fix the problem because there is no problem. The Psalm after describing the Passion of Christ goes on to say that God did not turn away, there is NO need for God to return He never left. Finally it finishes triumphant, the meek shall be satisfied, all the families of the nations shall worship before him and so forth. To interpret this as Jesus believing himself forsaken makes no sense.

 

[Paul_G]

The LDS claim Christ pulled the holy spirit from the church; this means Christ lied. Sorry, but they are at best severe heretics. And their sunday ward services a parody of the Roman Mass.

LDS services I believe more closely resembles the order of meetings found in the 1st century Church - One only the initiated could attend and the one all could attend.

edited by Paul

 

[Aramis]

LDS services I believe more closely resembles the order of meetings found in the 1st century Church - One only the initiated could attend and the one all could attend.

edited by Paul

Wards services are not closed; only temple services.

 

[RebeccaJ]

It doesn’t–and it is as silly of you to insist that I accept your judgment of my Christianity as it would be of a Ford owner to accept the judgment of the Chrysler owner that only Chryslers can be motor vehicles.

It silly of you to make these non-comparisons.

There is one definition of Christianity. There is one truth. It is not based on opinion. Not mine or yours. It is not relative to where you are standing, or what car you drive, or what you like for dinner, or anything else.

God is not one thing that is a lie, and another that is not. You have been taught lies, about the nature of God. Lies are not truths. A CHRISTIAN does not believe what the LDS church teaches about God.

This is the truth, and yes, I think it is clear that it offends you.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Yeah…and asking why He forsook Jesus. A cry in the darkness…and no matter how you look at it, it is rather a strong indication that there are two very separate People here—or else why would Jesus HAVE to ‘speak to the Father,’ and how could He ask THAT question in any case, if the Catholic view of the Trinity were true?

I’m just asking, y’know.

If you return with ‘it’s a mystery and we are content to have it be so,’ that’s fine. However,you can’t then decide that we are WRONG about this; it’s a mystery, right?

Please see zaff’s post and reread Psalms 22. Jesus often quoted the OT, y’know, to make a point. The point here is not that the father forsook him. This is the mocking that was going on around Him, as He hung on the Cross. He clarified, before dying, that no, He was not forsaken. The Father never left Him.

And yes, the persons of the Trinity are three, distinct, individuals who have a relationship to each other.

Jesus said, and did, all for our benefit. He never stopped teaching, even while suffering in torture for our sins.

 

[Paul_G]

Wards services are not closed; only temple services.

The only thing I can’t see that might resemble the Mass in our ward meetings is the blessing and passing of the sacrament. Is this what you are getting at? If not please explain your point.

Paul

 

[Aramis]

The only thing I can’t see that might resemble the Mass in our ward meetings is the blessing and passing of the sacrament. Is this what you are getting at? If not please explain your point.

Paul

That’s part of it. The ward service I was at (for a friend’s child’s blessing and namegiving) was very much like the Roman Mass, but without vestments.

An opening prayer, two readings plus a gospel, the sermon*, the blessing and distribution of the “sacrament”.

the basic outline and the visual implimentation is very much reflective of the Roman Mass (and the Anglican/Episcopalian, Lutheran, and Methodist as well).

• the testimonials were in the same time spot… that alone screams “CULT!!!” loudly.

 

[Paul_G]

That’s part of it. The ward service I was at (for a friend’s child’s blessing and namegiving) was very much like the Roman Mass, but without vestments.

An opening prayer, two readings plus a gospel, the sermon*, the blessing and distribution of the “sacrament”.

the basic outline and the visual implimentation is very much reflective of the Roman Mass (and the Anglican/Episcopalian, Lutheran, and Methodist as well).

• the testimonials were in the same time spot… that alone screams “CULT!!!” loudly.

The basic outline of the LDS ward meeting, I’m sure, is related to a variety of factors, but to me it seems similar to synagogue worship in character. Except for the addition of the sacrament as a Christian addition, the Sunday ward meetings appear to affiliate in their basic form and purpose to the assembly in the synagogue with its prayers, singing’ scriptural readings and exhortations. I now appreciate your comment as it appears that the Mass and the LDS ward meeting may have the same precursor.

Paul

 

[Aramis]

I forgot to mention the placement of special rituals after the sermon and before the consecration, exactly as would be done for a baptism or confirmation in the Catholic church.

The presidential mode, and lots of little details, all add up to disquietingly similar, even spookily similar.

 

[TLara]

I think the Catholic Church has every right to decide who is and who is not a Christian. Remember it was St. ignatious of Antioch that first used the word Christian to describe the followers of the true faith.

 

[Paul_G]

I forgot to mention the placement of special rituals after the sermon and before the consecration, exactly as would be done for a baptism or confirmation in the Catholic church.

The presidential mode, and lots of little details, all add up to disquietingly similar, even spookily similar.

Could you describe what was happening at the point in the meeting that you suggest is similar to Catholic ritual.

Paul