Easter - pagan holiday?

[Xavier]

Steve Andersen:

What are you saying?

Easter is merely the modern pronunciation of an old Anglo Saxon name for a month in spring no more no less

I’m sure the pagan Anglo Saxons had no information about the Jews one way or another

They were the pagan rulers of a formerly Christian country who preserved some of their linguistic identity after their conversion

Clearly Easter was different from the other pagan holidays that were co-opted by the early church
As I said its link to the lunar calendar ad the equinox (i.e. Passover) as well as a day of the week made it unique

Im saying this

The early church chose to celebrate the Easter season (lent, Holy Thursday, Good Friday, Holy Saturday, Easter Sunday, Pentecost) using a pagan calender and pagan feasts. They did not use the Hebriac calender or feasts which is the plumb line for Gods timetable.

 

[Rhonda_in_GA]

MariaG:

Can anyone help out here? In the OT, God told the Israelites to turn a pagan celebration into one pleasing to God. Does anyone remember where that was in the Bible?

It is this long tradition, of taking something ungodly and turning it into something godly that Catholic Christians have continued as God decreed in the OT.

A modern Protestant example is Harvest Day Parties. Since Halloween is originally a pagan celebration, Christians today have reclaimed it by doing harvest parties. Lost upon them is that Catholics already had reclaimed that day for God through all Saints and All Souls Day.

God Bless,
Maria

No answer to your qeustion, Maria, on that verse in the Bible!

But if my memory serves me, Halloween was not a pagan festival – it was All Hallow’s Eve, the night before the great Feast All Saint’s Day.

Yes, there was a Druid festival at the end of the harvest that was conveniently overshadowed. I find it interesting that many non-Catholics are replacing Halloween with Harvest Festivals, the exact thing that All Saint’s Day and All Hallow’s Eve replaced!

 

[Rhonda_in_GA]

Xavier:

Can you answer me my simple questions?
Why if Christ celebrated Passover and we now call it Holy Thursday do we celebrate it on a day other than Passover?
My question is not from a SDA perspective but of a Hebriac roots perspective.
I know Catholic beliefs, I was raised one.
I now raise up Christ as He is raised all will come to Him.
Im not antiCatholic Im pro thruth.
Your attacks are only a diversion from the real issue.

Xavier - I’m new here and asked the original question. I must say that from your very first post, I felt hostility and a lack of charity. I’m sure you didn’t mean your post that way?

I do have a non-theological comment/question about what you’ve said above:

We are not celebrating Passover, are we? Christ is the fulfillment of the Passover. The Passover is now complete. We are, instead, celebrating the Resurrection, the Paschal Mystery.

This is how my simple mind works. Christ didn’t change the Passover, he finished it. So why should we celebrate the Passover now?

I’m sorry. I really don’t have any dramatic resources to back up what I’m saying. These are the ponderings of a simple mind.

Peace.

 

[Steve_Andersen]

Xavier:

Im saying this

The early church chose to celebrate the Easter season (lent, Holy Thursday, Good Friday, Holy Saturday, Easter Sunday, Pentecost) using a pagan calender and pagan feasts. They did not use the Hebriac calender or feasts which is the plumb line for Gods timetable.

Well only the Hebrews used the Hebrew calendar

If you are trying to spread the Word/convert the world it s much easier to work with the dominant system of reckoning than an obscure/provincial one… Deal with it

The Hebrew calendar is lunar based but has correction days (intercalary days) built in to keep the months from migrating out of sync too much with the solar calendar so it really won’t be too far off either way.

Besides, like with other holidays, it is important to celebrate THAT an event took place rather than the exact date

Do you really think God cares how we count the passage of time?
It is an arbitrary, cultural phenomenon

I would hope that God is concerned with weightier matters

 

[AnAtheist]

JCPhoenix:

Does she say the days of the week in English? If so, by her logic, she is worshipping Norse gods. I don’t remember them all, but Tuesday came from the word “Thor’s Day”, and Thor was the Norse god of thunder.

Nitpickig mode:
Tuesday - Day of Tyr (God of War)
Wednesday - Day of Wodan (Highest God)
Thursday - Day of Thor (God of Thunder)
Friday - Day of Freya (Goddess of Love)
Saturday - Day of Saturn (Roman god of, hm well, agriculture)

 

[quaysman]

Xavier:

Can you answer me my simple questions?
Why if Christ celebrated Passover and we now call it Holy Thursday do we celebrate it on a day other than Passover?
My question is not from a SDA perspective but of a Hebriac roots perspective.
I know Catholic beliefs, I was raised one.
I now raise up Christ as He is raised all will come to Him.
Im not antiCatholic Im pro thruth.
Your attacks are only a diversion from the real issue.

These are reasonable and honest questions, from Xavier. I have lots of “Hebrew Roots” friends from my Sabbatarian days. I even attended a weekly Messianic bible study for a while that gave me some valuable insights into the Old Testament from a Hebraic perspective.

[The following represent my private opinions and should not be understood as an attempt to present official Church teaching]

Just several points about “Passover” being Holy Thursday (i.e. the day before the crucifixion). I would argue that this is only “suggested” by the synoptics. John clearly puts Christ, our Passover, on the cross at the same time the Passover lambs were slaughtered. This was the “day of Preparation” BEFORE the eve of the 1st Day of Unleavened Bread, the beginning of the “High Day” (John 19:31).

Now truly, the Last Supper did occur on Holy Thursday (I realize that many coming from a Hebraic perspective would dispute the day of the week, but I’m speaking generally to the order of events). There are many theories (I’ve had some good ones of my own over the years ) that seek to explain in what sense the Synoptics refer to the Last Supper as “Passover”. I have neither space nor time to get into that issue here. Suffice it to say that while what Jesus did that night was rooted in the Passover, it went far beyond the Passover and indeed introduced new significance to the Bread & Wine. While the OT Passover did include Unleavened Bread and Wine, these were used in a different way by Jesus. Without getting into transubstantiation, do we agree that the “Bread” at the Last Supper answers more directly to the “Lamb” of the Passover ceremony than to the Unleavened Bread? * Also, the “Wine” of the Last Supper was equated with the “Blood” of the Lamb (and was the Precious Blood of “Christ, our Pascal Lamb” [1 Corinthians 5:7-8]). Oops, did I say “without getting into transubstantiation”??? Sorry…

Forgive me for being brief, I know there are many details that can be discussed in much greater detail. But my point is that what Jesus did at the Last Supper while rooted in the Passover actually transcends the Passover. That is why 1 Corinthians 11 clearly implies that from the earliest days the Church was celebrating the “Lord’s Supper” on a regular basis (probably weekly) - [1 Corinthians 11:20,26].

Regarding the “Easter” question, in all charity, I can only recommend a more careful and open-minded reading of Fr Ambose’s excellent post.

Grace & Peace*

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

JimG:

The 8th century St. Bede proposed that the word “Easter” is derived from the Scandinavian “Ostra” and the Teutonic “Ostern” or “Eastre,” both goddesses of mythology signifying spring and fertility whose festival was celebrated on the day of the vernal equinox.

The Venerable Bede was wrong! Not often wrong, but he was in this case. See the article in my previous post.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Xavier:

Father no pagan roots to the spring equinox?

I didn’t say that the spring equinox did not have a meaning for the pagan world. Of course it did, as it did and still does for all religions and cultures that are closer to the seasons and to agricultural seasons than our own heavily industrialised society. Many of us spend so much time inside that we don’t even know when it is raining!

The author disagrees with the Vernable Bede, I suppose he is of no authority.

Bede is the ONLY authority which we have who speaks of a pagan goddess called Eostre. If she did ‘exist’ we would expect to have other evidence.

Easter was established by the nicene council.

No. The Council of Nicea decided to put an end to the different dates on which Christians celebrated Easter (Christ’s resurrection.) Jerusalem, Egypt, Syria, Rome… followed different systems for calculating the date. What Nicea did was to standardise the date across the whole Church. The bishops at Nicea thought that a common date for Easter was an important sign of the Church’s unity.

For the early church to chose a day not associated with either Passover or Firstfruits in favor of a pagan holiday? And you would defend it?

The Nicene calculation associates it with the Jewish Passover:

The first Sunday after the full moon after the vernal equinox but not coinciding orpreceding the Hebrew Passover.

“Easter Day… is the first Sunday after the Full Moon which happens upon or next after the twenty first of March; and if the Full Moon happen upon a Sunday, Easter Sunday is the Sunday after… The Eastern Church still observes the rule laid down by the Council of Nicea (A.D. 325) and now disregarded by the Western Church, that the Christian Easter shall never precede or coincide with Jewish Passover, but must always follow it. Easter cannot fall earlier than April 5 or later than May 8. The Full Moon used for the purposes of the Easter reckoning is the fourteenth day of a Lunar Moon reckoned according to the ancient Ecclesiastical computation, and not the real Astronomical Full Moon.”

From *The Service Book of the Holy Orthodox Catholic Apostolic Church. *

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

The Irish form Cáisc is a cognate of Pascha.

Digitonomy:

How’s that again?

Well, the family of Celtic languages falls into two groups known as p-Celtic and q-Celtic.

Click here for a look at how it operates…
edu.pe.ca/gray/gaelic/history/6languages.htm

 

[Xavier]

Rhonda in GA:

Xavier - I’m new here and asked the original question. I must say that from your very first post, I felt hostility and a lack of charity. I’m sure you didn’t mean your post that way?

I do have a non-theological comment/question about what you’ve said above:

We are not celebrating Passover, are we? Christ is the fulfillment of the Passover. The Passover is now complete. We are, instead, celebrating the Resurrection, the Paschal Mystery.

This is how my simple mind works. Christ didn’t change the Passover, he finished it. So why should we celebrate the Passover now?

I’m sorry. I really don’t have any dramatic resources to back up what I’m saying. These are the ponderings of a simple mind.

Peace.

We should celebrate Passover as a memory to the great work God did in releasing the captives Isreal and most of all Jesus not only being the fullfillment of the Passover but the one whom the passover pointed to.

 

[Xavier]

Steve Andersen:

Do you really think God cares how we count the passage of time?
It is an arbitrary, cultural phenomenon

I would hope that God is concerned with weightier matters

I think God very much cares if we are obedient and that we are carefull to seperate, sanctify ourselves from profane and worldly things.

 

[Digitonomy]

Fr Ambrose:

Well, the family of Celtic languages falls into two groups known as p-Celtic and q-Celtic.

Click here for a look at how it operates…
edu.pe.ca/gray/gaelic/history/6languages.htm

Fascinating. I’ll have to check this out in more detail when I have the time.

JimG, Gottle, AnAtheist, I get no respect. You missed my post # 11.:crying:

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Xavier:

Pagan origins of Easter:

Many, perhaps most, Pagan religions in the Mediterranean area had a major seasonal day of religious celebration at or following the Spring Equinox.

Hey, you should have been more balanced. The site which you took this from gives not only

The Pagan Origins of Easter
but also
The Christian Origins of Easter

religioustolerance.org/easter.htm#menu

And if we want to play along these lines, then let’s rid ourselves of Christ the Saviour crucified for His people on a tree because Wodin was also crucifed on a tree. The god Thammuz of Syria was crucified. Mithra of Persia was crucified,etc. So let’s call the crucifixion of Christ something of pagan origin taken from these pagan religions surrounding Israel.

 

[Xavier]

Fr Ambrose:

Hey, you should have been more balanced. The site which you took this from gives not only

The Pagan Origins of Easter
but also
The Christian Origins of Easter

religioustolerance.org/easter.htm#menu

And if we want to play along these lines, then let’s rid ourselves of Christ the Saviour crucified for His people on a tree because Wodin was also crucifed on a tree. The god Thammuz of Syria was crucified. Mithra of Persia was crucified,etc. So let’s call the crucifixion of Christ something of pagan origin taken from these pagan religions surrounding Israel.

My point all along has been not to mix the sacred with the profane

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Xavier:

He made December 25th, the birthday of the pagan Unconquered Sun god, the official holiday it is now–the birthday of Jesus.

Christ’s Nativity and the Birthday of the Invincible Sun
holylight.com/christmas1.html

Here is a sermon of Pope Saint Leo the Great (died 18 February 461) on exactly this topic.

Your remarks of the Church adopting pagan customs out of ignorance or a desire to mix the pagan with the Christian are simply silly.

Read what Pope Leo has to say on this topic. You will see that he is not having any of such nonsense.

The whole sermon is on the WWW at
holylight.com/christmas1.html

[Pope Leo now goes on to warn Christians against sun-worship -
Christmas was established on the day of the pagan festival Dies Natalis Solis Invicti (Birthday of the Unconquered Sun) and some seem to have brought elements of sun-worship into Christianity.]

Having therefore so confident a hope, dearly beloved, abide firm in the Faith in which you are built: lest that same tempter whose tyranny over you Christ has already destroyed, win you back again with any of his wiles, and mar even the joys of the present festival by his deceitful art, misleading simpler souls with the pestilential notion of some to whom this our solemn feast day seems to derive its honour, not so much from the nativity of Christ as, according to them, from the rising of the new sun!

Such men’s hearts are wrapped in total darkness, and have no growing perception of the true Light: for they are still drawn away by the foolish errors of heathendom, and because they cannot lift the eyes of their mind above that which their carnal sight beholds, they pay divine honour to the luminaries that minister to the world. Let not Christian souls entertain any such wicked superstition and portentous lie.

Beyond all measure are things temporal removed from the Eternal, things corporeal from the Incorporeal, things governed from the Governor. For though they possess a wondrous beauty, yet they have no Godhead to be worshipped. That power then, that wisdom, that majesty is to be adored which created the universe out of nothing, and framed by His almighty methods the substance of the earth and sky into what forms and dimensions He willed. Sun, moon, and stars may be most useful to us,
most fair to look upon; but only if we render thanks to their Maker for them and worship God who made them, not the creation which does Him service.

Then praise God, dearly beloved, in all His works and judgments. Cherish an undoubting belief in the Virgin’s pure conception. Honour the sacred and Divine mystery of man’s restoration with holy and sincere service. Embrace Christ born in our flesh, that you may deserve to see Him also as the God of glory reigning in His majesty, who with the Father and the Holy Spirit remains in the unity of the Godhead for ever and ever. Amen.

 

[Fr_Ambrose]

Xavier:

He made December 25th, the birthday of the pagan Unconquered Sun god, the official holiday it is now–the birthday of Jesus.

Christ’s Nativity and the Birthday of the Invincible Sun

holylight.com/christmas1.html

Here is a sermon of Pope Saint Leo the Great (died 18 February 461) on exactly this topic.

Your remarks of the Church adopting pagan customs out of ignorance or a desire to mix the pagan with the Christian are simply silly.

Read what Pope Leo has to say on this topic. You will see that he is not having any of such nonsense.

The whole sermon is on the WWW at
holylight.com/christmas1.html

[Pope Leo now goes on to warn Christians against sun-worship -
Christmas was established on the day of the pagan festival Dies Natalis Solis Invicti (Birthday of the Unconquered Sun) and some seem to have brought elements of sun-worship into Christianity.]

Having therefore so confident a hope, dearly beloved, abide firm in the Faith in which you are built: lest that same tempter whose tyranny over you Christ has already destroyed, win you back again with any of his wiles, and mar even the joys of the present festival by his deceitful art, misleading simpler souls with the pestilential notion of some to whom this our solemn feast day seems to derive its honour, not so much from the nativity of Christ as, according to them, from the rising of the new sun!

Such men’s hearts are wrapped in total darkness, and have no growing perception of the true Light: for they are still drawn away by the foolish errors of heathendom, and because they cannot lift the eyes of their mind above that which their carnal sight beholds, they pay divine honour to the luminaries that minister to the world. Let not Christian souls entertain any such wicked superstition and portentous lie.

Beyond all measure are things temporal removed from the Eternal, things corporeal from the Incorporeal, things governed from the Governor. For though they possess a wondrous beauty, yet they have no Godhead to be worshipped. That power then, that wisdom, that majesty is to be adored which created the universe out of nothing, and framed by His almighty methods the substance of the earth and sky into what forms and dimensions He willed. Sun, moon, and stars may be most useful to us,
most fair to look upon; but only if we render thanks to their Maker for them and worship God who made them, not the creation which does Him service.

Then praise God, dearly beloved, in all His works and judgments. Cherish an undoubting belief in the Virgin’s pure conception. Honour the sacred and Divine mystery of man’s restoration with holy and sincere service. Embrace Christ born in our flesh, that you may deserve to see Him also as the God of glory reigning in His majesty, who with the Father and the Holy Spirit remains in the unity of the Godhead for ever and ever. Amen.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Xavier:

For those that have ears let them hear.

Clear examples:
Holy Thursday was on Passover. Good Friday the first day of unleavened bread, Resurrection Sunday on The Feast of FirstFruits.
Passover, feasts of unleavened bread and firstfruits were God ordained times.
The early church moved the celebration of these ‘holydays’ to a different time. The time they chose happedned to be a time that was associated with a pagan festival. The spring equinox festivals of the pagans celibrated fertility. Rabbits and eggs were symbols used. Rabbits and eggs are not part of any Christian doctrine i know of. However how many "so called’ Christian homes (not only Catholic) celebrate Easter with rabbits and eggs.

Well duh! I said which part of Christian DOCTRINE are pagan, not which ridiculous practices have been adopted by SOME christians. I could care less about rabbits and colored eggs. Which part of the Paschal Mystery and celebration of the death and glorious resurrection are pagan?

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Xavier:

Im saying this

The early church chose to celebrate the Easter season (lent, Holy Thursday, Good Friday, Holy Saturday, Easter Sunday, Pentecost) using a pagan calender and pagan feasts. They did not use the Hebriac calender or feasts which is the plumb line for Gods timetable.

And what gives you such unique insight into God’s timetable? I was under the impression that God, who is present at all places and all times simultaneously, didn’t need a timetable.

 

[Steve_Andersen]

Xavier:

I think God very much cares if we are obedient and that we are carefull to seperate, sanctify ourselves from profane and worldly things.

God made this world for us

We are part of it
In it and of it

To separate yourself from such a wonderful gift is…not for everyone

But what does that have to do with the reckoning of time?

The date of Passover floats from year to year
Easter is tied to it but, by tradition, it is also tied to a particular day of the week so through the magic of celestial mechanics the relative dates of the two holidays varies

Once again celebrating that something happened is far more important than getting the date right

 

[Rhonda_in_GA]

MariaG:

Can anyone help out here? In the OT, God told the Israelites to turn a pagan celebration into one pleasing to God. Does anyone remember where that was in the Bible?

It is this long tradition, of taking something ungodly and turning it into something godly that Catholic Christians have continued as God decreed in the OT.

A modern Protestant example is Harvest Day Parties. Since Halloween is originally a pagan celebration, Christians today have reclaimed it by doing harvest parties. Lost upon them is that Catholics already had reclaimed that day for God through all Saints and All Souls Day.

God Bless,
Maria

Maria (et al) –

Remember when Saint Paul went to Athens (in the book of Acts), and walked down that big boulevard and found the altar to the “unknown god?” And then he told the people that he knew who the unknown god was, He was the one, true, God. Wasn’t that a model for taking a pagan “something” (an altar in this case) and Christianizing it?

Thanks for your thoughts!