Eastern Catholic and Orthodoxy

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part 2

Yet the comparison of Constantinople with Rome would be unfair without looking at the papal black sheep or, perhaps, the papal wolves. Most of these were dissolute scoundrels who were too busy drinking and whoring to occupy themselves with doctrine; thus for a consideration of papal infallibility they were irrelevant. Three names, though, kept popping up in all the sources, whether Protestant, Orthodox, or liberal Catholic: Liberius (352-366), Vigilius (537-555), and Honorius. I disposed of the first two quickly. They had been made to sign questionable statements of faith while under duress. That doesn’t count: Papal infallibility applies only to free acts of the pope, not to acts under torture. No contract signed under duress is binding; thus Liberius and Vigilius, whatever their failings, were excused.

That left Honorius. Opponents of infallibility said that his case demolished any pretension of papal infallibility, for he was not only a heretic but was condemned as such by an ecumenical council, Constantinople III, in 680, which declared, 42 years after the Pope’s death, that Honorius be “expelled from the Church and anathematized . . . because we find in his letter to Sergius that in all respects he followed his view and confirmed his impious doctrines.” [Quoted in Warren H. Carroll, The Building of Christendom: A History of Christendom, vol. 2 (Front Royal, Virginia: Christendom College Press, 1987), 253]
.

Sergius was another one of those stalwart patriarchs of Constantinople, anathematized in the same conciliar declaration for originating the Monothelite heresy. Monothelitism was one of a series of attempts to reconcile the Monophysites, who at that time were a huge portion of the Christian world, with the Catholic Church they had torn by schism more than two hundred years previously.

The Monophysites maintained that our Lord’s human nature had been absorbed into his divine nature. They could not accept the decree of the Council of Chalcedon (451) that “the only-begotten Son of God must be confessed in two natures, unconfusedly, immutably, indivisibly, inseparably united . . . without the distinction of natures being taken away by such union.” “The Definition of Faith of the Council of Chalcedon, 451,” in Colman J. Batty, O.S.B., Readings in Church History (Westminster, Maryland: Christian Classics, Inc., 1985), 104].

Sergius, the first Monothelite, tried to affect a compromise by teaching that our Lord had only one will, a divine will. Like many compromises, this one ultimately pleased no one. To the orthodox it was anathema, for it denied the fullness of Christ’s human nature. To Monophysites it was no more welcome, for this will-less but otherwise intact human nature which Monothelitism attached to Christ seemed to them to deny his unity.

None of this was clear in the palmy days of 634. Monothelitism had encountered some criticism from the prescient Patriarch of Jerusalem, Sophronius, but elsewhere it was more politely received. The Pope had not yet heard of it. With evident high hopes in his own inventiveness and craftiness, Sergius wrote to Honorius about his thoughts.

In his two letters Sergius warned that teaching two wills in Christ would lead to the idea that the human will of the Son of God was opposed to that of his Father. He advised the Pope that it was better to speak of only one will in our Lord. Sergius was trying a little sleight of hand: He was attempting to deny the existence of Christ’s human will by pointing out that our Lord never opposed the Father. Yet if two persons agree, they may be spoken of as being of “one will” this doesn’t mean, of course, that one of them has no will at all.

The Pope, with no idea of Sergius’ between-the-lines message, answered the Patriarch on the unthinkable subject of Christ’s “opposition” to the Father. “We confess one will of our Lord Jesus Christ, since our (human) nature was plainly assumed by the Godhead, and this being faultless, as it was before the Fall.” [Quoted in Charles Joseph Hefele, A History of the Councils of the Church, vol. 5 (Edinburgh: T. & T. Clark, 1896; AMS Reprint, 1972), 29]
. Since Christ’s human will is “faultless,” there can be no talk of opposing wills. (Christ hardly would have been faultless if he opposed his Father’s will.)

Monothelites, as they grew in numbers and influence over the ensuing years, seized upon Honorius’ confession of “one will of our Lord Jesus Christ” as confirmation that the Pope believed with them that Christ had no human will. Newman and other commentators have noted that Honorius’ letters to Sergius are not doctrinal definitions ex cathedra; thus they are outside the scope of infallibility defined by the First Vatican Council.

That is true, but, even more to the point, a look at Honorius’ exact words shows that while he did use a formula–“one will”–that was later declared heretical, he used it in a sense that implied the orthodox belief.

This was picked up as early as 640 by Pope John IV, Honorius’ successor, who pointed out that Sergius had asked only about the presence of two opposing wills. Honorius had answered accordingly, speaking, says Pope John, “only of the human and not also of the divine nature.” Pope John was right. Honorius assumed the existence of a human will in Christ by saying that his nature is like humanity’s before the Fall. No one would claim that before the Fall Adam had no will. Thus Honorius’s speaking of Christ’s assumption of a “faultless” human nature shows that he really did believe in the orthodox formula of two wills in Christ: one divine, one human, in perfect agreement.

The Third Council of Constantinople was thus in error when it condemned Honorius for heresy. But a Council, of course, has no authority except insofar as its decrees are confirmed by the pope. The reigning Pontiff, Leo II, did not agree to the condemnation of his predecessor for heresy; he said Honorius should be condemned because “he permitted the immaculate faith to be subverted.” [Carroll, 254]

This is a crucial distinction. Honorius probably should have known the implications of using the “one will” formula; he could have found out by writing a letter to Sophronius of Jerusalem. But he was no heretic.

The anti-papists got the wrong guy. It seems incredible that so many readers of Honorius’s letters, from Patriarch Sergius to Hans Kng, see only what they want to see in Honorius’s “one will” formula. We should thank God that this poor old pope saw fit to explain himself. Rarely outside of the homoousios/homoiousios controversy at the First Council of Nicaea has so much hinged on so few words.

Since this case seemed to be the best one the anti-infallibilists could turn to, I became an infallibilist, a Catholic with faith in the pope as the Vicar of Christ and successor of St. Peter. The Church will live beyond the trials of these days as it did those of Honorius’s day. That bare fact may seem abstract and impenetrable in the convulsions of our age, yet it is our unshakable guarantee.
So anyone who states the historically verifiable fact that Pope Honorius was a heretic is an “anti-Papist” and “anti-infallibalists”? I would look at the sources you’re using if you would like to make an unbiased argument. Make a scholarly argument if you wish to make one, but the bias and, of all things hostility(which you earlier accused me of) are not even accidental, but apparently meant to be noticed.
 
and showing e a list of Eastern heretics is no proof of your claim whatsoever.

It isn’t? But I think that we can agree that those heresies (which were accepted as truth) were, indeed, heresies (can’t we)?
 
I’m sorry, but I have to continue with this tomorrow…

it’s getting late.
 
and showing e a list of Eastern heretics is no proof of your claim whatsoever.

It isn’t? But I think that we can agree that those heresies (which were accepted as truth) were, indeed, heresies (can’t we)?
We can say that, and I would include the filioque, the immaculate conception and others along with them. Maybe then we could throw quotes and conflicting sources at each other 'till the cows come home, I would rather not. My point is that my conversion to Orthodoxy was not a step I took haphazardly, and if you can throw a quote at me I have probably read it, studied it and considered it, and still came to an opposite conclusion from the one you came to(imagine!) Unity between the Orthodox and Catholic Churches hopefully will come one day, but not without some serious obstacles that neither you nor I are going to solve here. That these obstacles and disagreements still exist between the learned people among the hierarchies of our Churches is enough reason to give them their due respect. I fully respect you and your beliefs even if some are contrary to my own. While I know that beliefs and minds do change, I hardly expect that anything I say will change yours- or you, mine. So all in all, God bless! 🙂
 
We can say that, and I would include the filioque, the immaculate conception and others along with them. Maybe then we could throw quotes and conflicting sources at each other 'till the cows come home, I would rather not. My point is that my conversion to Orthodoxy was not a step I took haphazardly, and if you can throw a quote at me I have probably read it, studied it and considered it, and still came to an opposite conclusion from the one you came to(imagine!) Unity between the Orthodox and Catholic Churches hopefully will come one day, but not without some serious obstacles that neither you nor I are going to solve here. That these obstacles and disagreements still exist between the learned people among the hierarchies of our Churches is enough reason to give them their due respect. I fully respect you and your beliefs even if some are contrary to my own. While I know that beliefs and minds do change, I hardly expect that anything I say will change yours- or you, mine. So all in all, God bless! 🙂
Oh, you mention the filioque? *Did you know *that the Eastern Rite Catholics (my very own Church) has returned to the original format of the Nicene Creed?..as encouraged by the Pope??? That’s no longer a point that can be held to, so firmly, as a reason for the Orthodox to remain in schism. So there goes one of your serious obstacles. There are actually Catholics, in full communion with the Pope, who have returned to the ancient formula of the fililoque! The original debate was a matter of expression, and not deeply divided theology in the first place. The Pope, understanding the need for the Eastern rites to regain some of their more eastern traditions and customs, has encouraged the Byzantines to return to that original formula. Were you aware of that? I bet not.

As far as the Immaculate Conception goes, I’ve had discussions with intelligent Protestants (who haven’t changed their minds either). But I still am out here, doing what I can. Without any deeply ‘theological’ apologetics, I’d say that the Immaculate Conception shouldn’t be one of such disbelief. The Fathers of the Church understood this doctrine, and it was reflected in their writings. I can’t understand how anyone can be so against the idea that God prepared our Blessed Mother (the Ark of the New Covenant) as a special sin-stained-free vessel for the Son of God’s own mother, the Theotokos!

Regardless of debate over Catholic doctrines, the thing we Orthodox and Catholics have to get down to (brass tacks) is the Papacy and the authority that Christ institured in Peter’s Chair, alone. That authority, to teach correct doctrines, was given by Christ, to the Catholic Church, with the Seat of Peter. It hasn’t changed, regardless of your inability to accept it or not.

You’re correct in that, there are plenty of intelligent people on both sides of the fence; however, the Church isn’t man-made, and Christ only promised the Holy Spirit to one Church, headed by the successors of Peter. There lies the difference.
 
We can say that, and I would include the filioque, the immaculate conception and others along with them. Maybe then we could throw quotes and conflicting sources at each other 'till the cows come home, I would rather not. My point is that my conversion to Orthodoxy was not a step I took haphazardly, and if you can throw a quote at me I have probably read it, studied it and considered it, and still came to an opposite conclusion from the one you came to(imagine!) Unity between the Orthodox and Catholic Churches hopefully will come one day, but not without some serious obstacles that neither you nor I are going to solve here. That these obstacles and disagreements still exist between the learned people among the hierarchies of our Churches is enough reason to give them their due respect. I fully respect you and your beliefs even if some are contrary to my own. While I know that beliefs and minds do change, I hardly expect that anything I say will change yours- or you, mine. So all in all, God bless! 🙂
By the way, you didn’t answer my quesitons. Can we agree that that long list of heresies (in the above post) are, indeed, heresies? I think that deserves a direct answer (yes or no)…instead of being ignored and given your summation.
 
We can say that, and I would include the filioque, the immaculate conception and others along with them. Maybe then we could throw quotes and conflicting sources at each other 'till the cows come home, I would rather not. My point is that my conversion to Orthodoxy was not a step I took haphazardly, and if you can throw a quote at me I have probably read it, studied it and considered it, and still came to an opposite conclusion from the one you came to(imagine!) Unity between the Orthodox and Catholic Churches hopefully will come one day, but not without some serious obstacles that neither you nor I are going to solve here. That these obstacles and disagreements still exist between the learned people among the hierarchies of our Churches is enough reason to give them their due respect. I fully respect you and your beliefs even if some are contrary to my own. While I know that beliefs and minds do change, I hardly expect that anything I say will change yours- or you, mine. So all in all, God bless! 🙂
“We can say that,”, STOP. I almost missed that weak admission there. I guess that’s an equivalent to “yes, those are indeed heresies”. Further, that’s a rather long list, covering several centuries. I wouldn’t necessarily sweep it quickly under the rug. It means something more than ‘oh, you can say that.’. It would seem to indicate the protection of the Holy Spirit. There are NO agreed ‘heresies’ listed under the Roman See. Noteable, if not convincing for you. Not something that can be easily ignored. But I’m sure you’ll make the attempt to disregard it, despite your admission that they are, indeed, **agreed upon **heresies!
 
Hay byzgirl,

You are byzantine Catholic who feels strongly the zeal for her church. But you should understand that many who do understand Roman Catholicism choose Orthodoxy.

I myself chose Orthodoxy over Roman Catholicism. My decision was not an easy one, and one that keeps reaffirming itself every time I read an Orthodox or Roman Catholic article.

Thomas Ross Valentine writes an excellent critique of the Catholic church (since he converted from Catholicism)… check that out here:

geocities.com/trvalentine/orthodox/essays.html

In regards to what Ghosty has said about the Melkite church, it is not entirely accurate. Rome promised the Melkites what Constantinople and the ‘Traditional Antiochians’ could not offer (read below). It is not that this group spontaneously decided they would have mass conversions to Catholicism because they just happened upon the need for the papacy.

Read a part of the Melkite history below and continue reading this website (phoenicia.org/melkites.html):🙂

"The failure of the Union attempted at Florence served as a lesson for Rome. The establishment of formal communion with an oriental Church would have to be brought about by work at the base and not at the summit. During an early stage, various missionaries, including Jesuits, Capuchins, Carmelites and Franciscans, put themselves at the disposition of the local hierarchy and worked in co-operation with it. Pastors who were not in formal communion with Rome encouraged their flocks to turn to the missionaries. The people felt the need for a deeper understanding of the traditional faith which they followed despite one thousand years of repression. They hoped to gain this from a clergy more instructed than their own. On both sides, the feeling was that there was one and the same faith which they shared. However, there was a fraction of the population which felt drawn by the high reputation of western culture and took over the Latin contribution in its entirety.

So it was that after some decades there appeared a new way of conceiving the traditional faith. The behavior of these new «Catholics» was viewed as treason by the group of those attached to their past and as a 15 deformation of their ancestral law. Consequently, communion in one faith with the cattolica, which had never ceased to flourish in the Patriarchate of Antioch, was called into question and two different conceptions of it made their appearance. The Antiochean identity became lost. one fraction of the faithful leaned towards Byzantium and became more Constantinopolitan than Antiochean, while the other fraction tended towards Rome, with a relationship that was Roman rather than faithful to the belief of the local Church The result was that at the death of Patriarch Athanasius in 1724, a double lineage of patriarchs came into existence, one Orthodox and the other Catholic. Both lines have lasted down to the present day.

1724 was indeed a fateful year; from now on there were two parallel hierarchies, two sister communities, riven apart under the complacent eye of the Turks, who granted the patriarchal and episcopal sees to those who offered them the most. Both sides had their martyrs and confessors. Henceforth, the two Churches, Catholic and Orthodox, followed two divergent ways and two different destinies. "

Wish you the best. God bless.
 
Hay byzgirl,

You are byzantine Catholic who feels strongly the zeal for her church. But you should understand that many who do understand Roman Catholicism choose Orthodoxy.

I myself chose Orthodoxy over Roman Catholicism. My decision was not an easy one, and one that keeps reaffirming itself every time I read an Orthodox or Roman Catholic article.

Thomas Ross Valentine writes an excellent critique of the Catholic church (since he converted from Catholicism)… check that out here:

geocities.com/trvalentine/orthodox/essays.html

In regards to what Ghosty has said about the Melkite church, it is not entirely accurate. Rome promised the Melkites what Constantinople and the ‘Traditional Antiochians’ could not offer (read below). It is not that this group spontaneously decided they would have mass conversions to Catholicism because they just happened upon the need for the papacy.

Read a part of the Melkite history below and continue reading this website (phoenicia.org/melkites.html):🙂

"The failure of the Union attempted at Florence served as a lesson for Rome. The establishment of formal communion with an oriental Church would have to be brought about by work at the base and not at the summit. During an early stage, various missionaries, including Jesuits, Capuchins, Carmelites and Franciscans, put themselves at the disposition of the local hierarchy and worked in co-operation with it. Pastors who were not in formal communion with Rome encouraged their flocks to turn to the missionaries. The people felt the need for a deeper understanding of the traditional faith which they followed despite one thousand years of repression. They hoped to gain this from a clergy more instructed than their own. On both sides, the feeling was that there was one and the same faith which they shared. However, there was a fraction of the population which felt drawn by the high reputation of western culture and took over the Latin contribution in its entirety.

So it was that after some decades there appeared a new way of conceiving the traditional faith. The behavior of these new «Catholics» was viewed as treason by the group of those attached to their past and as a 15 deformation of their ancestral law. Consequently, communion in one faith with the cattolica, which had never ceased to flourish in the Patriarchate of Antioch, was called into question and two different conceptions of it made their appearance. The Antiochean identity became lost. one fraction of the faithful leaned towards Byzantium and became more Constantinopolitan than Antiochean, while the other fraction tended towards Rome, with a relationship that was Roman rather than faithful to the belief of the local Church The result was that at the death of Patriarch Athanasius in 1724, a double lineage of patriarchs came into existence, one Orthodox and the other Catholic. Both lines have lasted down to the present day.

1724 was indeed a fateful year; from now on there were two parallel hierarchies, two sister communities, riven apart under the complacent eye of the Turks, who granted the patriarchal and episcopal sees to those who offered them the most. Both sides had their martyrs and confessors. Henceforth, the two Churches, Catholic and Orthodox, followed two divergent ways and two different destinies. "
Wish you the best. God bless.
Odd little article, considering that the Melkite Church enjoyed a lot more independence with Rome than the Antiochian Church enjoyed with Constantinople. If either Church maintained its identity as an independent local Church, it was the Melkite Church; the Antiochian Orthodox Church essentially became a branch of the Church of Constantinople.

Now nothing I said was meant to imply that there wasn’t exchange prior to reunion; of course there was, or it never would have happened. My point was that the reunion was spontaneous on the side of the Melkites, and spiritual in nature, not forced or political.

Peace and God bless!
 
Odd little article, considering that the Melkite Church enjoyed a lot more independence with Rome than the Antiochian Church enjoyed with Constantinople. If either Church maintained its identity as an independent local Church, it was the Melkite Church; the Antiochian Orthodox Church essentially became a branch of the Church of Constantinople.

Now nothing I said was meant to imply that there wasn’t exchange prior to reunion; of course there was, or it never would have happened. My point was that the reunion was spontaneous on the side of the Melkites, and spiritual in nature, not forced or political.

Peace and God bless!
When I read what you had written before, it seemed to me to be saying that these people who were Orthodox converted to the Catholic faith (became the Merlkite Catholic church) and thus because of their conversion, they were persecuted by both the Orthodox and the Muslim Turks (almost as though the Orthodox sided with the Turks in persecuting Catholics).

I’m sorry but that is not how it was at all. BOTH sides were persecuted, BOTH have they’re martyrs. The Roman missionaries that came to the Antiochian church were far more educated and erudite as in Rome people had relatively easy access to education and were not persecuted. Rome also had the money and the power to send people overseas to other churches.

Constantinople did not know Rome was proselytising the Orthodox in the Antiochian patriarchate until it was too late. Some saw the providence and wealth in the West as a sign of favouritism by God (an Old Testament Concept which is not entirely true) and others saw the Western missionaries are more knowledgable about the faith then their own. Thus some started leaning towards union with Rome over Constantinople.

This is not to mention financial pressure - Rome offered the Melkites enough money to pay their priests and keep their churches open (especially in a time of financial hardship). This was not offered at all by Constantinople.

Neither church was independent. Antioch then began to depend on the Greek Tradition while the Melkites (those who felt compelled to Rome) began accepting Latinizations and depended financially on the Roman Church (This continued even till Vatican 1 as August Bernard Hassler claims).

The Melkites were not forced to become Catholics, they were merely financially pushed in the direction. And as time goes on people forget the past and pretend that it didn’t happen. The Melkites then felt content with the Roman claims as that is what they were brought up with and what they had always known. Once they had accepted the Roman system of ecclesiology and other doctrines, they were content with keeping them - they had forgotten their Orthodox heritage. This is why they do not come back to their mother church today.

But funny thing is, when the Melkites came to Australia, many of them converted to Orthodoxy. Also when the Melkites came to the USA, forced clerical celebacy imposed on them caused a drastic 90% conversion to the Orthodox faith (amazing how something as trivial as clerical celebacy made them forget about the “divinely ordained petrine ministry”).

Anyways I will pray for unity some day, but it will not happen through the Unia.

God bless.
 
Decisions are personal; however, when it comes down to it, there is only one choice to be made…to be a member of the Church which Jesus Christ instituted. I believe that Church to be the Catholic Church (Eastern and Western rites equally embraced). But personal decisions are void when it comes to the Truth. There is only one. And I believe, without reserve, that Christ founded the Church on Peter and his successors. And whether or not, certain individuals accept it or not (and certainly this includes good and intelligent people), there is only one Church, and its leadership is rightly held by the man with the keys, and no one else. It’s the supremacy (not just primacy) of Peter and his Chair which holds my eternal allegiance.

Slava Isusu Christu! My prayers are for unity.
 
When I read what you had written before, it seemed to me to be saying that these people who were Orthodox converted to the Catholic faith (became the Merlkite Catholic church) and thus because of their conversion, they were persecuted by both the Orthodox and the Muslim Turks (almost as though the Orthodox sided with the Turks in persecuting Catholics).

I’m sorry but that is not how it was at all. BOTH sides were persecuted, BOTH have they’re martyrs. The Roman missionaries that came to the Antiochian church were far more educated and erudite as in Rome people had relatively easy access to education and were not persecuted. Rome also had the money and the power to send people overseas to other churches.

Constantinople did not know Rome was proselytising the Orthodox in the Antiochian patriarchate until it was too late. Some saw the providence and wealth in the West as a sign of favouritism by God (an Old Testament Concept which is not entirely true) and others saw the Western missionaries are more knowledgable about the faith then their own. Thus some started leaning towards union with Rome over Constantinople.

This is not to mention financial pressure - Rome offered the Melkites enough money to pay their priests and keep their churches open (especially in a time of financial hardship). This was not offered at all by Constantinople.

Neither church was independent. Antioch then began to depend on the Greek Tradition while the Melkites (those who felt compelled to Rome) began accepting Latinizations and depended financially on the Roman Church (This continued even till Vatican 1 as August Bernard Hassler claims).

The Melkites were not forced to become Catholics, they were merely financially pushed in the direction. And as time goes on people forget the past and pretend that it didn’t happen. The Melkites then felt content with the Roman claims as that is what they were brought up with and what they had always known. Once they had accepted the Roman system of ecclesiology and other doctrines, they were content with keeping them - they had forgotten their Orthodox heritage. This is why they do not come back to their mother church today.

But funny thing is, when the Melkites came to Australia, many of them converted to Orthodoxy. Also when the Melkites came to the USA, forced clerical celebacy imposed on them caused a drastic 90% conversion to the Orthodox faith (amazing how something as trivial as clerical celebacy made them forget about the “divinely ordained petrine ministry”).
Anyways I will pray for unity some day, but it will not happen through the Unia.

God bless.
Not funny. Clerical celibacy (something men, in general have a tough time with, and especially in modern times, almost a complete revulsion to the concept) has never been a ‘forced’ thing (no one HAS to become a priest). It’s a discipline (of which some cannot obtain and for which the bar shouldn’t be lowered) …and something of which many don’t have a ‘taste for’, but something worthy and good. If that is the fundamental reason which kept certain Australian Melkites from the Catholic Church, and away from the ‘divinely ordained petrine ministry’, I think it a very unforunate thing.

The Orthodox, bottom line…are going to have to reconcile to the Papacy. There will not be unity, without the understanding that the Pope holds the keys of Peter, and sits in the critical seat of unity.
 
“Dogmas of the Catholic Church are interconnected. If one is rejected, such as the infallibility of the Pope, then all are rejected.”
Fr. Trujillo…

For both heretics and schismatics style their congregations churches. But heretics, in holding false opinions regarding God, do injury to the faith itself; while schismatics, on the other hand, in wicked separations break off from brotherly charity, although they may believe just what we believe. Wherefore neither do the heretics belong to the Church catholic, which loves God; nor do the schismatics form a part of the same.
 
“Dogmas of the Catholic Church are interconnected. If one is rejected, such as the infallibility of the Pope, then all are rejected.”
Fr. Trujillo…

For both heretics and schismatics style their congregations churches. But heretics, in holding false opinions regarding God, do injury to the faith itself; while schismatics, on the other hand, in wicked separations break off from brotherly charity, although they may believe just what we believe. Wherefore neither do the heretics belong to the Church catholic, which loves God; nor do the schismatics form a part of the same.
I just find this to be a theologically unsupportable claim. Wherever the Eucharist is, there is the Church.

The Body of Christ (the One Church in the sense in which you like to use the term) may be broken and torn, but to deny the Orthodox are members of the Body of Christ because they are not Catholic is theologically absurd. I realize we have already had this discussion once over elsewhere, but the reduction of unity to Rome is bad theology. It pretty much transforms the theological ideals of communion and Church into submission and Empire. The Patriarchs are not administrative lackeys of the Roman Empire.

I don’t know…maybe there is an ultramontanist streak running through the Byzantine Catholic Church, but in general I cannot see your position flying in many of the non-Latin Churches as a description of unity, catholicity or ecclesia (for that matter, it doesn’t have the greatest support in the Latin Church either). What I see is a push for even greater recognition of the integrity and autonomy of our Churches. If those were the conditions for union, it doesn’t seem to me the unions would have taken place then and would be unsustainable now.

Salaam.
 
I just find this to be a theologically unsupportable claim. Wherever the Eucharist is, there is the Church.

The Body of Christ (the One Church in the sense in which you like to use the term) may be broken and torn, but to deny the Orthodox are members of the Body of Christ because they are not Catholic is theologically absurd. I realize we have already had this discussion once over elsewhere, but the reduction of unity to Rome is bad theology. It pretty much transforms the theological ideals of communion and Church into submission and Empire. The Patriarchs are not administrative lackeys of the Roman Empire.

I don’t know…maybe there is an ultramontanist streak running through the Byzantine Catholic Church, but in general I cannot see your position flying in many of the non-Latin Churches as a description of unity, catholicity or ecclesia (for that matter, it doesn’t have the greatest support in the Latin Church either). What I see is a push for even greater recognition of the integrity and autonomy of our Churches. If those were the conditions for union, it doesn’t seem to me the unions would have taken place then and would be unsustainable now.

Salaam.
Many are nowhere near as ultramontanist as Byzgirl seems. (I doubt she is, either…)

The common perception at my parish is that being in union is vitally important, but not the be-all end-all of being part of the Church nor of salvation; in fact, one DL was offered for a quick and satisfactory resolution to the issues of His Grace Nikolai of Sitka & Anchorage, the OCA bishop, recently “retired” by the OCA synod. We see them as brothers, very much as we see the Romans, Maronites, Copts, and such. We welcome the Orthodox, we’ll let them partake of the sacraments, but we don’t require them to accede to papal authority, just not to speak against it at our parish.

Many share my view of the Petrine office as being, in effect, Archpatriarch. I know many OCA-RO who see the same role, and find the archpatriarchal role as heresy. That is one of the big issues for the local OCA/RO… while not named as such, the Papal authority to Primatial Bishops (Patriarchs, Governing Metropolitian-Archbishops) is much the same as a Metropolitan Archbishop to his suffragans, and in both cases, this is stronger than the OCA allow their hierarchs.

But even as such note that I do not speak for the parish; I speak of what those who sate their opinions have shared. Then again, the parish is an oddity within the Eparchy… few are Ethnic Carpetho-Rus.
 
I have a library book that I thought was about the Eastern Orthodox Church. I found it when I searched for ‘Hesychasm.’ I learned about Hesychasm from a previous book about icons and I had the clear impression that the icons book was about the Greek and Russian Orthodox Church–not the Roman Church. Yet this book claims Hesychasm to be Catholic. How is that possible?
 
If both sides are blameless, why are you separate? But you will all say it is the fault of the other side. What kind of leadership would let believers fight like this? Maybe it is why their authority was lost.
 
I have a library book that I thought was about the Eastern Orthodox Church. I found it when I searched for ‘Hesychasm.’ I learned about Hesychasm from a previous book about icons and I had the clear impression that the icons book was about the Greek and Russian Orthodox Church–not the Roman Church. Yet this book claims Hesychasm to be Catholic. How is that possible?
Hesychasm is a particularly “eastern” theological vein (not a theology itself, but a part of a larger body of Byzantine thelogy) and a prayer praxis, which is in both Orthodoxy and in Catholicism…

orthodoxwiki.org/Hesychasm

It is pretty much “pan-byzantine” and thus is part of both Catholic and Orthodox traditions. The Orthodox clerics online often warn of it as potentially damaging if not carefully guided.
 
Hesychasm - A theory of mysticism upheld by the Orthodox Eastern Church in defense of a system of comptemplation first practiced by the Antonite monks in the 14th century. The ascetic training according to its upholders, let to the beholding of the uncreated light of God, which accompanied the Transfiguration. It was taught that this “light of Tabor” and all divine operation is distinct from the divine essence.

To combat this doctrine and patheistic developments of Hesychasm, its opponents used the teaching of Saint Thomas and the scholastics, thus aggravating anti-Western feeling and widening the scope of the controversy.

In 1351, a synod approved the doctrines of Hesychasm and canonized its defender, Gregory Palamas, as a doctor of his church. An Orthodox monk who reaches a high degree of comtemplation is still called a Hasychast, but the name does not necessarily mean more than “one who observes quiet”.
 
Many are nowhere near as ultramontanist as Byzgirl seems. (I doubt she is, either…)

The common perception at my parish is that being in union is vitally important, but not the be-all end-all of being part of the Church nor of salvation; in fact, one DL was offered for a quick and satisfactory resolution to the issues of His Grace Nikolai of Sitka & Anchorage, the OCA bishop, recently “retired” by the OCA synod. We see them as brothers, very much as we see the Romans, Maronites, Copts, and such. We welcome the Orthodox, we’ll let them partake of the sacraments, but we don’t require them to accede to papal authority, just not to speak against it at our parish.

Many share my view of the Petrine office as being, in effect, Archpatriarch. I know many OCA-RO who see the same role, and find the archpatriarchal role as heresy. That is one of the big issues for the local OCA/RO… while not named as such, the Papal authority to Primatial Bishops (Patriarchs, Governing Metropolitian-Archbishops) is much the same as a Metropolitan Archbishop to his suffragans, and in both cases, this is stronger than the OCA allow their hierarchs.

But even as such note that I do not speak for the parish; I speak of what those who sate their opinions have shared. Then again, the parish is an oddity within the Eparchy… few are Ethnic Carpetho-Rus.
Under the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches, the Roman Pontiff (the Pope) enjoys supreme, full, immediate and universal ordinary power in the Church which he can always freely exercise.[20] The full description is under Title 3, Canons 42 to 54 of the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches

Many are nowhere near as ultramontanist as Byzgirl seems. (I doubt she is, either…)/

You doubt that I am, yet you threw the statement out there anyhow? [Ahem, if you look back to the listing of the Eastern See’s Patriarchs, you may find a few Montanists.]

First of all, the Catholic Church does not subscribe to any such teaching of new revelation. Secondly, the only dogmatic error that the Montanists professed, as a body, denied that the Church could forgive sins. I, of course, strongly believe that the Church was given that authority (to forgive sins, in the Sacrament of Reconciliation).

And I even am designated with a preceding “ultra”? Are you serious?

I shouldn’t even bother to remark, but because of the audacity, that you would make such a statement, and then weakly (in parentheses) state your doubt of its truth, I thought I’d better make a point of it.

It’s good to know that you ‘don’t speak for the parish’ (considering your opinion of the papacy as an Eastern Catholic).
 
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