Eastern Catholic and Orthodoxy

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I mean that when it was set up, it was designed as a “Byzantized” Western Liturgy. I don’t recall which changes were made (another discussion lost to the inter-ether with the forum change), but I know that certain changes were made to the Anglican Liturgy to be more like the Byzantine tradition, one example being the use of leavened bread.

Peace and God bless!
If you mean the elimination of the references to “merits of the saints,” that’s not Byzantine, that’s Orthodox.

On the leaven, the problem is it was a shibboleth of the schism, but the leavenend bread thing is not pushed. I’ve been to WRO that have unleavened, and other where it is leavened but flat.

I haven’t seen an over abundance of Eastern icons in WRO. I have in Latin churches.
 
Isa Almisry has made a response to my post, and I will be responding to him soon after I address this post by chrisb.

chrisb,

No, it’s not that there is no objective expression of the faith, it is that there are multiple objective expressions (not just one, the Byzantine expression) of the faith. Oriental Orthodoxy, a non-Western communion, bears witness to this, having inherited three major objective expressions of the faith. No one says in Oriental Orthodoxy, that the expression of the Armenians is subjective, and that of the Alexandrians or Antiochenes is more objective, rather, all three are honored and allowed to exist in the same communion.

I can’t expect you to fully understand this because you live in a uniformed communion. I don’t mean this as an insult at all, I’m simply saying that Eastern Orthodoxy only has one major expression: Byzantine (or Constantinopolitan or Greek), and you don’t have within your communion another parallel equal expression (in its fullness), which you can see being lived out by your members.

The Protestant and individualistic/agnostic phenomenon in the West has erroded the ancient Latin expression (as well as the Faith itself) that was received from the Latins, thereby subjectivizing what was the objective expression of the Latins. This is different from the concept of multiple expressions that were planted among the Apostolic Churches.

No, it is not a question of tinkering with Christian terms/understandings by replacing them with the terms/understandings of other religions, or changing the names of the Trinity (Father, Son, Holy Spirit). It is about respecting the expressions that were planted among the Apostolic Churches, namely the 6 major traditions: Latin, Constantinopolitan, Alexandrian, Antiochene, Armenian, and Assyro-Chaldean. These expressions flourished over time due to the culture and people in which the One Apostolic Faith was planted.

No need to fear, just understand where I’m coming from. In the East/Orient, there is not just one real relationship between orthodoxy and orthopraxy. There are multiple real relationships between orthodoxy and orthopraxy. The real relationship of orthodoxy and orthopraxy of the Chaldeans (for example) is unlike the real relationship of orthodoxy and orthopraxy of the Byzantines. We just don’t theologize in the same way, or celebrate our liturgy, or pray, or canonically discipline our people in the same way. Having said this, I don’t mean that our Chaldean expressions contradict your Byzantine expressions, they are merely different, but not contradictory.

Ah, but you see, there is more than one traditional form. The traditional Byzantine form is not the traditional Chaldean form, and so forth. So, you guys can conduct your temporary exercise of economia whenever it is necessary for you to do so, we on the other hand have our own traditional form that we received from our Church of the East fathers, with which we can conduct our own “temporary exercise of economia” whenever we need to.

With regards the West, the Latins have also received their own traditional form, and do likewise have the authority to conduct a “temporary excercise of ecomonia” whenever they feel the need to do so. It is their perogative on how and when such an “excercise” can be done.

So, with regards the forms, the expressions, there are multiple traditional ones, none more exalted or greater than the others, different but complementary. On the essence, though, there is “one Lord, one faith, one baptism” (Eph. 4:5), which was “once for all delivered to the saints” (Jude 1:3). Catholic unity demands oneness on the essence.

No need to be sorry, I too am not willing to water-down the expressions and traditions of the Faith that were planted long ago among our Assyro-Chaldean people, that is why, I can never be Eastern Orthodox, becuase that is exactly what the EO, by their very uniformed structure, can and will do to us. In the Catholic Communion, we are allowed to maitain our own traditional Assyro-Chaldean expressions, and that’s where we prefer to be.

God bless,

Rony
To be honest, a lot of the individuality of the Oriental Orthodox and the sui juris under the Vatican is they are isolated from one another.

Parallel equal expressions (in there fullness), which you can see being lived out by your members? I don’t know how many who do.

I don’t know how much the EO see other Churches. I see a LOT of it, but that, I admit could just be the circles I frequent. But you are right, no surprises when you do.
 
I mean that when it was set up, it was designed as a “Byzantized” Western Liturgy. I don’t recall which changes were made (another discussion lost to the inter-ether with the forum change), but I know that certain changes were made to the Anglican Liturgy to be more like the Byzantine tradition, one example being the use of leavened bread.

Peace and God bless!
Subtle changes to the epiclesis, and the ban on statuary.
 
To be honest, a lot of the individuality of the Oriental Orthodox and the sui juris under the Vatican is they are isolated from one another.

Parallel equal expressions (in there fullness), which you can see being lived out by your members? I don’t know how many who do.

I don’t know how much the EO see other Churches. I see a LOT of it, but that, I admit could just be the circles I frequent. But you are right, no surprises when you do.
Glory to Jesus Christ!

Would Rony be pitching ‘branch theory’ here and also expressing an ‘organic cultural development’ not only of orthopraxy but of orthodoxy?

I’m seeing a lot between the lines in Rony’s posts and two things that appears to pop out for me are ‘branch theory’ and ‘development of doctrine’. We know that St. Paul admonished the Church to ‘hold to the traditions’ but Rony appears to believe that the One Faith is ultimately ‘subjective cultural religion’ on some level. I’m guessing he means “Liturgical Theology”? That simply scares me. The Liturgies of Sts. James, Basel and John are the ‘bedrock’ of our catechesis. You change the Liturgy and you change the Faith.

What are you thoughts on this?
 
Considering that the Roman liturgy was different from the Lit. of St. James by the time of the Apostolic Constitutions, I really don’t see the issue with the 6 Rites expressing the same faith in 6 different, culturally influenced, ways.

For comparison: We all perceive light of 475nm wavelength as blue. But the terms used to describe that particular wavelength vary from one culture to another: Azul, Azure, Dark Blue, синій, 青色… but some would call 475nm medium blue, not dark, even within the same language base as those who call it dark blue. But all express the same truth: light which is about 475nm in wavelength.

All human expression is tinged by culture; we can not, as beings, express truth absolutely. We can only approximate it, and our cultural and intellectual backgrounds shade our perceptions, and our needs for reaching truth, without changing the truth itself.
 
With all due respect, the fact that those churches which submitted to the Vatican retain there customs has a lot to do with their isolation, distance from Rome and recent providence. If you compare, for instance, the Maronites, Ruthenians, etc. In Slovakia, Moravia, Hungary, Finland, southern Italy, etc. the Eastern Orthodox were suppressed outright, as what happened the Celtic churches.
Yes, the Greeks of Constantinople have been just as good, when given a chance.
Isa,

I don’t deny that distance played a factor in history. I’m simply looking at the current communion in Catholicism and the current communion in E Orthodoxy, and I see a pluriformed communion in the former, and a uniformed one in the latter.

As Assyro-Chaldean Christians, it is easier and more honorable for us to exist in a pluriformed communion as a full Patriarchichal Church, where our traditional form of theology, liturgy, spirituality, and disciplines are fully allowed to exist as co-equal with the rest of the forms in the communion.
With all due respect, I think I brought this up once, about your church’s use of yaldat mshikha (Christotokos) instead of yaldat alaha (Theotokos). You said that was your church’s tradition. True, but what was the context of that tradition. The rejection of Theotokos being adopted by the church in Persia, which was the dogma for over a thousand years, until the Latin missionaries arrived at the time of schism in the “Church of the East.” That’s not a neutral tradtion. Same with the dispensation from saying “filioque.”
The Church of the East (or Persian/Mesopotamian Church) tradition spoke of Mary as “Mother of Christ, our God and Saviour”. There was a misunderstanding of what was meant by the title “Theotokos” that occured among us. Mar Odisho (Abdisho) of Sowa (Soba), a great medieval CotE canonist and theologian, goes into it briefly with these misunderstandings in mind, which you can read here: CHAPTER VI On the Title “Begetter of God”

So, “Theotokos” was not looked upon favorably due to a misunderstanding of what the Christians in the Roman empire, west of the Euphrates river (we were east of the Euphrates in the Persian empire), actually meant by it. If it were properly understood, it would not have been a problem for us at all. In fact, when the Catholic Church signed the Christological agreement with our non-Catholic sister Church, the Assyrian Church of the East, they both said:

The humanity to which the Blessed Virgin Mary gave birth always was that of the Son of God himself. That is the reason why the Assyrian Church of the East is praying the Virgin Mary as “the Mother of Christ our God and Savior”. In the light of this same faith the Catholic tradition addresses the Virgin Mary as “the Mother of God” and also as “the Mother of Christ”. **We both recognize the legitimacy and rightness of these expressions of the same faith and we both respect the preference of each Church in her liturgical life and piety. **​

When some Christians of the Church of the East reunited with the Church of Rome, they were made to change the title “Mother of Christ” to “Mother of God” due to the suspicion that we were “Nestorians” (an Identification, which historically became associated with a two-Sons two-Persons Dividing-Christ teaching, a teaching that the Church of the East actually rejects, and is being debated as to whether Nestorius actually taught this in his rejection of Theotokos). This was an unecessary change, because the title “Mother of Christ” is not in itself heretical, nor by itself, necessitates a rejection of the title “Mother of God”.

With our recent revision of our liturgy of Mar Addai and Mar Mari, an insertion of “Mother of Christ” was brought back and was placed next to “Mother of God” in a paranthesis, like this:

Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit. Let there be a remembrance of the Virgin Mary, Mother of God (or: Christ), upon the holy altar.​

This shows that both are acceptable titles to refer to Mary.

The “filioque” is another matter. We did have a version of a “filioque” at the Creed of the Synod of Mar Isaac in 410, but it was not exactly formulated in the same way as the Latin liturgical Creed (the Aramaic word for procession is not used in the Creed of 410). Historically, the “filioque” was a Latin-Greek squabble that had nothing to do with us. In any case, the recent revision of our liturgical Creed states “proceeds from the Father”.
With the Western Rite Orthodox, they are allowed their rites, except those that refelct what had seperated them, eg. references to the “merits of the saints” are modified, as they do not reflect Orthodox theology.
Western Rite Orthodoxy is not the same thing as the Eastern/Oriental Catholic Churches. We are not merely rites, we are Churches with our own Hierarchies (our own Patriarchs, Major Archbishops, etc.), that utilize our own traditional theologies [not just one theology, the Byzantine (or what you guys call Orthodox) theology], liturgies, spiritualities, and canonical disciplines.
Btw the one slice pizza thing is relatively recent. Antioch 12th cent., Alexandria 13th.
Wow, I didn’t know a pizza was that old, originating in Antioch and Alexandria, cool!

just kidding 😃

God bless,

Rony
 
There were those who did: there was a group of Assyrians who united to the Russian Orthodox Church, had bishop(s), etc. The Turks killed them off and scattered them though.
Isa,

A while back, I read a little about this group. There was a site about them, but I do not remember the link.

Such a group would have been uniformed theologically with the Constantinopolitan theology of the E. Othodox communion, and perhaps some other aspects as well. I’d have to look at the site again to see the conditions of unity.

This is different from the reality of theological pluriformity that exists in the Catholic Church today.

God bless,

Rony
 
Parallel equal expressions (in there fullness), which you can see being lived out by your members? I don’t know how many who do.
Isa,

The US is a good place where Catholics can see other different Catholics live out their various traditions, especially if the various Catholics are faithful to their ancient traditions. I currently live in an area where there is no access to a Chaldean Church, which is a plus in some respects, because I get to see the nearby Maronite, Byzantine, and Latin Christians live out their various different traditions.

If some Coptic Orthodox live near the Armenian or Syriac Orthodox, they would likewise notice the differences in the traditions.
I don’t know how much the EO see other Churches. I see a LOT of it, but that, I admit could just be the circles I frequent. But you are right, no surprises when you do.
It’s good that you are in area of close familiarity with the other Apostolic Churches. Along with many Latin Catholics, some Eastern Orthodox are not all that familiar with the other Eastern/Oriental Churches.

God bless,

Rony
 
Would Rony be pitching ‘branch theory’ here and also expressing an ‘organic cultural development’ not only of orthopraxy but of orthodoxy?
chrisb,

It is not the “branch theory”. I’m referring to this:

From the Code of Canons of the Oriental Churches, Canon 28 (the Latins have their own Code):

  1. A rite is the liturgical, theological, spiritual and disciplinary patrimony, culture and circumstances of history of a distinct people, by which its own manner of living the faith is manifested in each Church sui iuris. 2. The rites treated in this code, unless otherwise stated, are those which arise from the Alexandrian, Antiochene, Armenian, Chaldean and Constantinopolitan traditions.

You can also read this short page at a Maronite eparchial site for a better understanding of what I’m trying to say:

stmaron.org/origin_identity.html

As far as organic development, the various expressions can and do develope, so long as they are organic, from within, rather than forced upon it from the outside.

The Apostolic Faith was deposited once and for all, and that does not change (anything that is non-Apostolic can not be added unto it, nor anything Apostolic can be done away with), but when the Faith was planted by the Apostles in various places and among various peoples, it produced various complementary expressions which have been developing organically ever since.
I’m seeing a lot between the lines in Rony’s posts and two things that appears to pop out for me are ‘branch theory’ and ‘development of doctrine’. We know that St. Paul admonished the Church to ‘hold to the traditions’ but Rony appears to believe that the One Faith is ultimately ‘subjective cultural religion’ on some level. I’m guessing he means “Liturgical Theology”? That simply scares me. The Liturgies of Sts. James, Basel and John are the ‘bedrock’ of our catechesis. You change the Liturgy and you change the Faith.
I honestly don’t think you’re actually understanding what I’m saying, with all due respect. By the way, we don’t celebrate the liturgies of Sts. James, Basel, and John. We celebrate the ancient liturgy of Sts. Addai and Mari, with St. Addai being a disciple of St. Thomas the Apostle, and who preached in Edessa; and St. Mari being the disciple of St. Addai, and who preached in Babylonia.

God bless,

Rony
 
Note from Moderator:

This thread is temporarily closed.

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Note from Moderator:

There were many appalling comments in this thread made by both Catholics and Orthodox that deserve infractions, but I am so saddened and frustrated by the sheer volume of such posts that I will spend tonight praying for each of you by name instead.

I expect the charity level on this forum to rise immediately. You are here discussing your faith in Our Lord God and Saviour and I expect you to show civility and charity in doing so. I don’t want to suspend anyone, but I will if I see behavior like this again.

If you have any questions, comments or concerns, I welcome your private messages. This thread is now closed.

May God Bless You Abundantly,
Catherine Grant
Eastern Catholicism Moderator
 
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