Eastern Catholic in a Latin Religious Order

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ByzCath08 said:
Br. David:

As someone who attends St. Melany’s, it always makes me happy to see you show up in your Carmelite habit during the Divine Liturgy. So, here is one Eastern Catholic who loves the fact that you are a Carmelite and attend our DL.

As for people questioning your Carmelite vocation, just offer that up as a cross your must bear. I’m sure you will make a wonderful Carmelite priest and god willing, a wonderful bi-ritual Byzantine priest.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
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I love St Melany’s and all who attend there. It is a great parish.

I am sad that I have to leave to return to my studies. I am happy I am getting on with my studies but it is sad that I have to leave St Melany’s to do so.
 
ByzCath said:
I think you may have read something I have written. I am a Byzantine Catholic who is in the Order of Carmel.
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I don’t think it was from you because it was from an OCDS, a Carmelite Secular Disclased Order.

There are other Byzantine Catholics in the OCDS so I don’t understand the fuss?
 
Roman Catholic religious Orders today are VERY open to the Eastern Christian experience (some of them, as I understand, go ever FURTHER East 😉 ).

They welcome Eastern Christians in their monasteries and their Secular branches.

As a Benedictine (long distance) Oblate tied to St Meinrad’s Archabbey, I have always been made to feel welcome and invited to share any Eastern traditions I might happen to know about it.

I follow the Byzantine Daily Office with the psalms as outlined there. This is different from what St Benedict gives in this Rule - but Latin Benedictines don’t exactly follow all the prescriptions of his Rule today either . . .

St Benedict even said that he didn’t care if people didn’t like his psalm schedule just as long as the entire psalter was recited each week.

But Latin Benedictines . . . 😉

Alex
 
I certainly have no problem with a Byzantine Carmelite. Mine is just a question of curiosity, in what ways do you maintain your Byzantine identity both for your personal spirituality and also how do you share your Byzantine life with the Carmelite community?

I was in a Latin rite diosean seminary for several years and have since left seminary. I am now vaguely pondering switching rites possibly to be a byzantine priest. I have had various connections to Carmelites in the past and have ruminated on the idea of being a secular carmelite OCDS byzantine priest.

Are you familiar with the Byzantine OCD sisters (www.byzantinediscalcedcarmelites.com)? Have you ever corresponded with them about how they have integrated the Carmelite and Byzantine life? Perhaps they are open to eventually starting a male parallel community or perhaps your OCarm superiors would be open to starting a separate Byzantine OCarm community some day?

Anyway, again I have no issue with your vocation but am very curious how your byzantine identity is integrated. If your byzantine life had been reduced down to a hand full of private pious devotions and you were committed through community life to the Latin Carmelite liturgical life every day why wouldn’t you just switch rites? I’m not suggesting that you do switch rites I’m just wondering if your commitments would be such that for all practical purposes it would just be more practical to do so?
 
I was once a Franciscan brother and a Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic and encountered nothing but hostility. I wasn’t ‘Roman Enough’ for the Order. Go Figure. This was back under Pope John Paul II. In any case, I left the Order and eventually found myself in Holy Orthodoxy under the HOCNA, where I now reside.

My only caution is that it is truly impossible to be Eastern Rite attached in any way, shape, or form to the Latin church, much less a Religious Order. You will find yourself a stranger in a strange land. Trust me, I’ve been there.

Nikos
 
NikosA said:
I was once a Franciscan brother and a Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic and encountered nothing but hostility. I wasn’t ‘Roman Enough’ for the Order. Go Figure. This was back under Pope John Paul II. In any case, I left the Order and eventually found myself in Holy Orthodoxy under the HOCNA, where I now reside.

My only caution is that it is truly impossible to be Eastern Rite attached in any way, shape, or form to the Latin church, much less a Religious Order. You will find yourself a stranger in a strange land. Trust me, I’ve been there.

Nikos
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Hello Nikos:

I’m sorry you experienced that Nikos but not all Latin Rites are like that. I am attending OCDS and there is a bi-ritual priest running it. There are several Byzantine Rite members and they seem to be very comfortable from what I can tell. This is just my beginning time there but there embracement of Eastern Orthodoxy is one of the things that is really attracting me to it.

I do understand where you are coming from because many Latin Catholics don’t even realize there is an Eastern part of our Church. But…there are also many priest and lay people who are trying to educate parishioners about this.

Blessings.
 
As long as the Bishop of your Eparchy has given consent, I don’t think it’s anyone else’s concern. (And since you’re not too far from the Byzantine Catholic Cathedral in Phoenix, where Bishop Gerald is in residence, I’m sure it must not have been difficult to speak with him about it. :))
 
theistgal said:
As long as the Bishop of your Eparchy has given consent, I don’t think it’s anyone else’s concern. (And since you’re not too far from the Byzantine Catholic Cathedral in Phoenix, where Bishop Gerald is in residence, I’m sure it must not have been difficult to speak with him about it. :))
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No consent from any bishop is required.
 
Aramis said:
Save those who granted the dispensation for a Byzantine to join a Roman order… The Council for the Eastern Churches.
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Correct, the dispensation is granted by the Oriental Congregation in Rome, the local bishop is not involved.

I had no contact with my local bishop. I lived in a city that did not have a Ruthenian parish, The closest was about an hour and half away. My city had two Ukrainian and one Melkite parish. I attended the Melkite parish.

I also did not contact my bishop as I did not feel called to the secular priesthood. No one is required to deal with their bishop for vocational discernment. I had a spiritual director as well as a couple of priests who mentored me in my discernment process.
 
Br. David;

Just so you know, there is at least one Carmelite (well, as soon as I am received) that appreciates the fact that you are Ruthenian!

Warren
 
Dear Brother David,

I think you should go on the offensive here and tell everyone you have joined the Carmelites to reclaim Carmel for the Catholic East to which it originally belonged!

The other Orders of England wanted to eject the Carmelites for this very reason and the prayer of St Simon Stock occasioned his vision of the Mother of God with her Mantle of Protection (which later came to be symbolized by the mantle worn by Carmelites).

This is all very rooted in the East!

Alex
 
ByzCath said:
  1. Are there any Eastern Christians (Catholic and Orthodox) who have an issue with my being a Byzantine Ruthenian Catholic in a Roman Catholic religious order?
    1a) If so what are they.
  2. If you do not have any issues with this can you speculate any on why some may have issues with this?
It got so bad for me at another forum that I had to just about leave off posting and just become a lurker there as whenever I posts a couple of users would go on the attack. The moderators did a good job of deleting these unkind posts but it started to weigh heavely upon me so I withdrew.

I understand that some might not want to go public with answering these sort of questions as they may be taken as uncharitable but I have asked the questions and am interested. I am in a different place personally and spiritually since this occured on the other forum.

So if you are concerned with posting publicly feel free to send me a PM and we can talk there if it is more comfortable.
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You should ask yourself, what our separated brethren feel about Byzantine Catholics who are members of Roman Rite religious orders. Why not be a Byzantine Catholic priest living the life inspired by a Byzantine Saint. I don’t know of any Eastern or Coptic Orthodox clergy who are Franciscans or Carmelites. Not even Benedictine, whom they share on their calendar. None of these Saints were of the Eastern part of the Church. They belonged to the Western half of the Church. Do we know of any Byzantine Monks on Mt Athos, who say the Roman Rite Mass, and live the Latin way.
 
Well, there are Eastern Church Benedictines and I’m an EC Benedictine Oblate.

The Biritual Benedictine monastery at Chevetogne is highly regarded by the Orthodox and the ROC in particular - an ROC delegation brought in relics of St Seraphim of Sarov for their common veneration. The Russian Orthodox press commented VERY favourably about this Benedictine monastery and its ecumenical work etc. I don’t see any EC priest or bishop getting these kind of accolades from the ROC - ecumenism at its best.

There are EC Carmelites and Archbishop Raya (+memory eternal!) once told me about them as they were in his Archeparchy when he was in the Holy Land.

In fact, the original monastics of Mt Carmel were Greek Orthodox monks (prior to the schism, of course). The Latin monastics who inherited their legacy went to England where they were pilloried by the true Latin religious Orders for being “Eastern rite invaders” in RC jurisdiction.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Br. David being in the Carmelite Order. While it is a Latin Order, its roots are Eastern and Carmelite scholars have been studying their Order’s Eastern background more closely, including the original Carmelite Rite, which is the Rite of Jerusalem and the monastic practices of the Thebaid as maintained by the early Greek monks (and before them, there were Jewish hermits in the tradition of St Elias).

And the Orthodox Church venerates the icon of Our Lady of Mt Carmel as a miraculous icon too - especially in Horodyschenske in western Ukraine. Russian Catholics, who cannot ever be seen as “Latinized,” have a great veneration for Our Lady of Fatima and the Carmelite Scapular.

Alex
 
But the facts are that no Eastern Orthodox or Oriental Orthodox Christians are members of a Latin religious order. Maybe Eastern Catholics are, but not the Orthodox. And they never will be. Keep the Latin orders in the Latin Church. When you follow a Latin custom, you end up bringing those customs into a place where they don’t need to be. Hence why the Maronites are so Latinized. They lost their Liturgy of the past. Thanks to the Jesuits!. Now their Liturgy is no better than a Novus Ordo Mass. My opinion!.
 
Alexander_Roman said:
Well, there are Eastern Church Benedictines and I’m an EC Benedictine Oblate.

The Biritual Benedictine monastery at Chevetogne is highly regarded by the Orthodox and the ROC in particular - an ROC delegation brought in relics of St Seraphim of Sarov for their common veneration. The Russian Orthodox press commented VERY favourably about this Benedictine monastery and its ecumenical work etc. I don’t see any EC priest or bishop getting these kind of accolades from the ROC - ecumenism at its best.

There are EC Carmelites and Archbishop Raya (+memory eternal!) once told me about them as they were in his Archeparchy when he was in the Holy Land.

In fact, the original monastics of Mt Carmel were Greek Orthodox monks (prior to the schism, of course). The Latin monastics who inherited their legacy went to England where they were pilloried by the true Latin religious Orders for being “Eastern rite invaders” in RC jurisdiction.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Br. David being in the Carmelite Order. While it is a Latin Order, its roots are Eastern and Carmelite scholars have been studying their Order’s Eastern background more closely, including the original Carmelite Rite, which is the Rite of Jerusalem and the monastic practices of the Thebaid as maintained by the early Greek monks (and before them, there were Jewish hermits in the tradition of St Elias).

And the Orthodox Church venerates the icon of Our Lady of Mt Carmel as a miraculous icon too - especially in Horodyschenske in western Ukraine. Russian Catholics, who cannot ever be seen as “Latinized,” have a great veneration for Our Lady of Fatima and the Carmelite Scapular.

Alex
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“In fact, the original monastics of Mt Carmel were Greek Orthodox monks (prior to the schism, of course).”

That’s news to me!. Where is your source for that information.
 
“And the Orthodox Church venerates the icon of Our Lady of Mt Carmel.”

That’s also another new one for me. Source please!.
 
bkovacs said:
But the facts are that no Eastern Orthodox or Oriental Orthodox Christians are members of a Latin religious order. Maybe Eastern Catholics are, but not the Orthodox. And they never will be. Keep the Latin orders in the Latin Church. When you follow a Latin custom, you end up bringing those customs into a place where they don’t need to be. Hence why the Maronites are so Latinized. They lost their Liturgy of the past. Thanks to the Jesuits!. Now their Liturgy is no better than a Novus Ordo Mass. My opinion!.
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And the Ordinary Form of the Mass is no less than any other Eucharistic rite.

Your opinions as reflected by your posts in this thread are exactly why I started this thread.

It makes me very sad that you would deny my call from God in such a way.
 
I’m not denying you anything. I just don’t like it when Latin customs are brought into the Greek Church. It creates a mishmash of traditions. Why do you think some Eastern Catholics, who are seeking a more pure form of the Byzantine rite, end up seeking out an Orthodox Church. Mendicant orders are foreign to the eastern Church. Monastic orders, on the other hand, are part of the eastern tradition. I don’t see any of the Saints of the eastern Church, wanting to start a mendicant order. That was started in the western Latin Church. So if you want to be a Carmelite, Franciscan, Dominican, Trappist, etcc, than follow the western traditions. Since those saints, and monks who founded those order’s were Roman Catholic. You don’t need to wear a western orders habit to show your loyalty to Rome.
 
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