Eastern Catholic in a Latin Religious Order

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I’m not denying you anything. I just don’t like it when Latin customs are brought into the Greek Church. It creates a mishmash of traditions.

And here you make a huge assumption that those of us Eastern Catholics in Latin Orders are unable to separate Western practices from Eastern ones and that we are out to “corrupt” the Byzantine Churches.

This is an assumption that I disagree with and am offended by.

 

[bkovacs]

Latin Orders of the Byzantine Rite

byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/249313/1

 

[Alexander_Roman]

But the facts are that no Eastern Orthodox or Oriental Orthodox Christians are members of a Latin religious order. Maybe Eastern Catholics are, but not the Orthodox. And they never will be. Keep the Latin orders in the Latin Church. When you follow a Latin custom, you end up bringing those customs into a place where they don’t need to be. Hence why the Maronites are so Latinized. They lost their Liturgy of the past. Thanks to the Jesuits!. Now their Liturgy is no better than a Novus Ordo Mass. My opinion!.

Yes, but the Benedictine Rule, although by a Western Holy Father, is recognized by the Orthodox Church. This means, of course, that there is nothing preventing an Orthodox community of monks from adopting the Rule of St Benedict - and, of course, there are Western Rite Orthodox Benedictine monasteries, such as the ROCOR one in Hamilton, Ontario.

Apart from the Latin religious Orders and those Latin religious communities who draw inspiration from the Rule of St Basil to varying degrees, all others are post-1054 developments.

Maronites aren’t the only Eastern Catholics who are Latinized. There are areas of the UGCC that are heavily Latinized as well and I don’t think most Eastern-oriented UGCCers realize the extent to which this exists.

The Jesuits did follow a course of Latinization among the Eastern Churches which was part of their campaign to not only bring them into “communion with Rome” but to literally impose their once-held triumphalist vision of papap supremacy over them.

However, they have mellowed since and Byzantine Jesuits are today among the leaders for Easternization among those same Churches.

Also, the UGCC Redemptorists have done, in my view, a great job of adapting to the Eastern “ethos.” The Latinized Orders in our Church are really on the way out, they aren’t getting new members. On the other hand, there is widespread interest in Eastern spirituality which is always monastic. Our Church is founded upon a monastic spirituality and the Latin religious Orders in our Church are not “monastic” but really “religious communities.”

The Carmelites, although a Latin Order, are also part of the “Desert Monastic” tradition of the Eastern Church. The Rule of St Albert is a rule that is based on eremitic Eastern spirituality. It only became Latinized when it amorphed into its mendicant version.

Alex

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Latin Orders of the Byzantine Rite

byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/249313/1

I do not go to that forum that often anymore due to hostility I have experienced there for my calling.

Anyways, this thread is not about Latin Religious Orders in the East. It is about a Byzantine Catholic being in a Latin Order while retaining membership in his Byzantine Church.

If you wish to discuss Latin Orders in the East then I think it would be best to start a new thread.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

“In fact, the original monastics of Mt Carmel were Greek Orthodox monks (prior to the schism, of course).”

That’s news to me!. Where is your source for that information.

That’s a fairly standard part of any decent history of the Carmelite Order. I have an excellent book at home on the Carmelite Scapular that discusses this, but there are better, more comprehensive historical reviews that can be even googled online.

Mt Carmel began with the Jewish prophets, like St Elias, who lived as monastics on it. It is said that St Elias even dedicated a place on Mt Carmel to the “Mother of the Messiah to come.” This is part of the historic Carmelite tradition but I don’t know anything further about it.

It wouldn’t be surprising if that were true though. In Paris, at Chartres, Christians found a Druidic statue of a virgin with a child on her lap. It became the basis of the image of Our Lady of Chartres (whose ancient icon can still be seen on the wall in the undercroft). And there is a feast at Chartres in honour of the Mother of God “100 BC.”

Alex

 

[Alexander_Roman]

“And the Orthodox Church venerates the icon of Our Lady of Mt Carmel.”

That’s also another new one for me. Source please!.

Yes, this can be found in the Russian language magnum opus by Prof. Poselyanin “Bogomater” where the “Shkapliernaya” Theotokos (sic) is listed and is located in the town of Horodyschenske. Jordanville sells this book, but, if you like, I can photocopy the relevant section and mail it to you. Just send me a mailing address.

As this was a Roman Catholic monastery, it is an image that was borrowed from the West. Such borrowings of Western icons/images that later became Orthodox miraculous shrines are not new and St Seraphim’s icon of the Mother of God, 'Joy of all Joys" is said to have originated in the West. There is the Orthodox icon “the Three Joys” which was brought as a gift to a Russian Orthodox priest who hung it on a pillar in his church. People soon flocked to it as a source of miraculous healings.

There is also, I have seen, a picture of the Jesuit “Madonna della Strada” which is likewise honoured as a miraculous icon (I have it in a larger icon of many Theotokos icons. There are also other very Western-oriented icons/images of the Mother of God honoured in the Orthodox East.

There is also, online, pictures and a story about a Greek Orthodox priest who became a Third Order Carmelite (i.e. the RC Carmelite Order) and who recites daily the Rosary of the Seven Joys of our Lady.

Alex

 

[Alexander_Roman]

In fact, Roman Catholics today are very open to the Orthodox Eastern spirituality, especially when it comes to monasticism, the Prayer of Jesus and the like.

As an Oblate member of a Roman Catholic Benedictine monastery myself, I can attest to the fact that my Director has done nothing but encourage me to drink more deeply of the waters of Eastern Christian spirituality.

If anything, he admires the spiritual strength of Eastern spirituality.

Both the Rules of St Benedict and of Mt Carmel are accepted by the Catholic East and the Orthodox Church accepts the former while it would not have anything against the original eremitic tradition of the latter.

As a Carmelite, Brother David is rooted in that same Eastern spiritual ethos that is the patrimony of the great monastic Saints of the Desert, whether on Mt Carmel, the Thebaid, Mt Athos or the northern Thebaid in Russia.

I am sorry that this thread has led to statements that have offended Brother David who does not deserve any of this in the least.

Alex