Eastern Catholic Relations with the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches

[Mickey]

I don’t see bitterness in his words.

I suppose you have your perspective.

Per chance his words could be taken at face value?

Indeed.

 

[dvdjs]

What are you talking about!! I gave my personal experience. If you want to read in strange comparisons based on your prejudice, that is your problem.

In reality, your original post that I commented on

[Many] [Orthodox] do not want them to exist–just as [many] Roman Catholics do not know or care that they exist.

The poor Eastern Catholics often find themselves caught in no man’s land.

made a general * comparison of EO and RC treatment of the “poor Eastern Catholics”, in general*. The comparison, especially with the “just as” equivalence, denies reality. It would be simple for you to amend the offensive remark; instead you divert to attention to my alleged bitterness.

I think discussion of my attitude is probably not appropriate for the forum. But I do wish to respond. My attitude is arguably better measured by the great amount of time and treasure that I have spent helping to grow an EO mission in my town; I have probably spent more time praying in EO churches that you.

The past, of living memory, is certainly forgivable - more certainly if forgiveness were ever sought. But that forgiveness does not admit a denial of reality. Reality should be respected.

 

[Mickey]

The comparison, especially with the “just as” equivalence, denies reality. It would be simple for you to amend the offensive remark; instead you divert to attention to my alleged bitterness.

There is no offense. Ask any Eastern Catholic. Many (not all) Orthodox see them as traitors. Many (not all) RC’s do not know or care of their existence. It is a cold hard fact. There is no need for bitterness.

I think discussion of my attitude is probably not appropriate for the forum.

Agreed.

But I do wish to respond. My attitude is arguably better measured by the great amount of time and treasure that I have spent helping to grow an EO mission in my town; .

God bless you.

I have probably spent more time praying in EO churches that you.

This comment is moot. You do not know me.

Reality should be respected.

Amen. Sadly, there are oftentimes different versions of reality.

 

[dvdjs]

There is no offense. Ask any Eastern Catholic. Many (not all) Orthodox see them as traitors. Many (not all) RC’s do not know or care of their existence. It is a cold hard fact.

What is missing in the comment, and thus what makes your earlier comparison offensive, are the all too real actions taken in association with the attitudes.

 

[Mickey]

What is missing in the comment, and thus what makes your earlier comparison offensive, are the all too real actions taken in association with the attitudes.

There is no offensiveness and you are the only one who has taken some type of imaginary offense. I love my Eastern Catholic brethren.

Pick your bone with someone else. I’m tired of arguing with you.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

There is no offensiveness and you are the only one who has taken some type of imaginary offense. I love my Eastern Catholic brethren. .

He is NOT the only one. Don’t put it on him. As someone has stated:

Sadly, there are oftentimes different versions of reality.

Pick your bone with someone else. I’m tired of arguing with you

Bones picked how they may be, if you are tired or arguing, leave last words.

There is a distinctive difference in ignorance of existence, and rejection of same. If you don’t see the difference, fine. Agree to disagree. But don’t put it on him.

 

[Mickey]

Agree to disagree. But don’t put it on him.

He has attempted to defend his remarks. He does not need your help. If you have a problem, state it clearly and move on.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

He has attempted to defend his remarks. He does not need your help. If you have a problem, state it clearly and move on.

OK, I will state it clearly:

There is no offensiveness and you are the only one who has taken some type of imaginary offense. I love my Eastern Catholic brethren. .

This is incorrect. He is not the only one who has perceived this comparison offensive. The Roman who doesn’t know who I am is not the same as the Orthodox who slanders my existence as a Greek Catholic or justifies the attempted liquidation of our church in Eastern Europe.

But I beg, don’t be so peremptory as to tell me whom I can or cannot defend or command me to move on.

 

[Mickey]

This is incorrect. He is not the only one who has perceived this comparison offensive. The Roman who doesn’t know who I am is not the same as the Orthodox who slanders my existence as a Greek Catholic or justifies the attempted liquidation of our church in Eastern Europe.

Sigh. Here is my original post:

[Many] do not want them to exist–just as [many] Roman Catholics do not know or care that they exist.

The poor Eastern Catholics often find themselves caught in no man’s land.

I am sorry if you and your friend misunderstood my remark. As you know, the Orthodox feel that the Eastern Catholics should return to Orthodoxy–their original patrimony. The fact that Roman Catholics did not care if I existed as an Eastern Catholic was no different (to me) than the Orthodox feeling that I should return to my original patrimony.

Then you take this further by talking about the liquidation of Churches. I do not think I need to tell you the amount of blood spilled on both sides, in many different countries. It has been covered extensively on this forum, and I know that the moderator does not want to go there again.

If you and your frienfd have been insulted by my remarks, I apologize to both of you–and anyone else lurking, who may have been offended. But I believe most here understood my comment as referring to the lonely place that Eastern Catholic often find themselves in reference Roman Catholicism and Holy Orthodoxy.

But I beg, don’t be so peremptory as to tell me whom I can or cannot defend or command me to move on.

I am but a wretched sinner and an anonymous entity on an internet forum. You are not compelled to follow my commands.

God bless!

 

[Hesychios]

[Many] do not want them to exist–just as [many] Roman Catholics do not know or care that they exist.

The poor Eastern Catholics often find themselves caught in no man’s land.

I agree with this.

 

[dvdjs]

Thanks for your apology Mickey.

Here is my original post:

[Many] do not want them to exist–just as [many] Roman Catholics do not know or care that they exist …

I am sorry if you and your friend misunderstood my remark. As you know, the Orthodox feel that the Eastern Catholics should return to Orthodoxy–their original patrimony. The fact that Roman Catholics did not care if I existed as an Eastern Catholic was no different (to me) than the Orthodox feeling that I should return to my original patrimony.

Then you take this further by talking about the liquidation of Churches.

Ah, here is the heart of the problem. You write about the existence of EC’s: opposition to this existence by EO’s, and ignorance of it by the RC’s. What does this opposition mean? You present here the idea that it benignly reflects a desire that EC’s return to Orthodoxy. And say that SS takes things further by taking about the liquidation of churches.

But the liquidation of churches is the ultimate manifestation of the attitude of not wanting us to exist. You may not be sensitive to how others feel on this point, but it’s hard for me to imagine that anyone might talk about how EC’s shouldn’t exist, without stimulating our recollection of the deadly actions taken, in living memory and beyond, to liquidate our churches. I am glad to hear that this is not what you meant to compare to RC ignorance, but sorry that you seem to miss how inflammatory your post - as written - is.

I do not think I need to tell you the amount of blood spilled on both sides, in many different countries.

Both sides? I am not sure what blood you are talking about, and have absolutely no idea what blood you are thinking of attributing to my particular Church. I also have no idea how this is relevant.

If you and your friend have been insulted by my remarks, I apologize to both of you–and anyone else lurking, who may have been offended.

Thanks again.

 

[Mickey]

Ah, here is the heart of the problem.

No. The heart of the problem is that you will not let it go. I apologized to you and SS. Is that not enough for you?

But the liquidation of churches is the ultimate manifestation of the attitude of not wanting us to exist.

I’m sure we can both provide some sad historical persecutions. Perhaps you can ask the moderator if she will allow a thread about it.

You may not be sensitive to how others feel on this point

Many here agree with my statement. It is too bad that you cannot accept my personal apology to you. There is not much more I can do.

but sorry that you seem to miss how inflammatory your post - as written - is.

And I am sorry that you are unable to accept a sincere apology.

Both sides? I am not sure what blood you are talking about

Read your history. For starters, look at Croatia.

 

[dvdjs]

No. The heart of the problem is that you will not let it go. I apologized to you and SS. Is that not enough for you?

I thanked you for the apology (twice). I took it as sincere, and only thus thought it worthwhile to try to make the point that you are still missing. You write about EC’s as being in no man’s land, and I think that notion is expressed as regrettable. I appreciate that sentiment.

But we are not “no man”; I do not accept being treated as such. And if you do find such treatment of us as regrettable, then don’t particpate in perpetuating it.

We have a history. We know even in very recent times what it means when EO’s talk about their desire that we should not exist. Our history should be considered, when such a statement is made; it cannot be ignored. We are not “no man”.

You talk of “both sides”, as though there are only two. But the problem of our interactions is a multi-lateral one. We exist. We are not “no man”.

For starters, look at Croatia

I honestly have no idea of any relevance of Croatia on an Eastern Catholic board. Is this yet another example of our being treated as “no man”?

Many here agree with my statement.

Perhaps, but no one has yet concurred with your “just as” equivalance between Latin ignorance and Orthodoxy’s wanting us not to exist.

It is too bad that you cannot accept my personal apology to you.

I did and do again thank you for it.

There is not much more I can do.

But there is, and that is precisely the point. Accept our existence. Accept our history. Bear it in mind when talking to EC’s. Promote our acceptance within the EO church. Promote the idea of an honest appraisal, and, as warranted, an expression of regret for the role of the EO church in the liquidation of EC churces. That is a start.

djs

 

[Mickey]

But there is, and that is precisely the point. Accept our existence. Accept our history. Bear it in mind when talking to EC’s. Promote our acceptance within the EO church. Promote the idea of an honest appraisal, and, as warranted, an expression of regret for the role of the EO church in the liquidation of EC churces.

I accept all my brethren in Christ with love and kindness–EO, RC, EC, and protestant. I am aware of Church history (ancient and recent). The communists were a ruthless Godless people. But if an Eastern Catholic begins to lean towards Holy Orthodoxy and they ask my opinion, I always tell them that they should return to their original patrimony.
smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/17/17_1_29.gif

 

[Isa_Almisry]

%between%By the way - if you were to join an “Eastern Catholic Church” you would be offending the Orthodox Church that you find so intriguing. The topic of Uniatism in those churches is one of the most volitile subjects that confronts both east and west. The Orthodox don’t want them to exist.

Quite a few of the Latin rite under Rome don’t want them to exist either.

 

[Mickey]

Quite a few of the Latin rite under Rome don’t want them to exist either.

Good point.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Really? Is that so? I’m Orthodox, search my posts. Have I ever said anything you wrote? No, because if you lived where I do you’d experience a whole different world.
The Orthodox and Greek/Byzantine Catholics work together today, we’re friends (and for the most part family too). No one wants to re-live what our people went through earlier last century.
So these days we all go to each other’s funerals, etc…
We’re friends, even lots of the Byzcaths/Greek Catholics come to the Sunday of Orthodoxy (usually like 15 parishes come to one church, it changes every year).
Come here, there are LOTS of Orthodox and Byzantine/Greek Catholics. You’d never hear any of the accusations that are made in this thread.
It’s a rather wide-sweeping assumption that every Orthodox will talk negatively about Eastern Catholics, it’s taboo to do so where I am from. It’s more than taboo, it is completely unacceptable.
I know all the Byzantine and Greek Catholic priests around here and they are all highly respected and wonderful men. Their churches are packed with the best people in the world. Since we are friends and often cousins, sisters, brothers… speaking in any bad manner about them would be considered rude to the highest degree where I live. And they extend the same to the Orthodox as well. When someone passes say an Eastern Catholic, usually even the Orthodox priests go to the Funeral. vice-versa the Byzantine Catholic priests often come to the Orthodox Funerals.
So, if anyone is being rude ignore them. It’s not how it functions in the real world, and in my part of the world is made up of a high percentage of Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholics.

And this all reminded me, me and my friends are going to have to schedule our visit to the Byzantine Catholic Church in town. They come visit us for Liturgy and we visit them for Liturgy.

Yes, it depends where you are out, or what’s the history. The Melkites, for instance have excellent relations with the Orthodox, the UGCC, not so good.

 

[wisdomseeker]

[Many] do not want them to exist–just as [many] Roman Catholics do not know or care that they exist.

The poor Eastern Catholics often find themselves caught in no man’s land.

[Moderator Note: This discussion on the relationship the Eastern Catholic Churches have with the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches was sufficiently off-topic to create a new thread from them. Please http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=213092”]see here for the original discussion.]

hello mickey

i love the EOC i have nothing against these churches.
and i love you all the members.

 

[Diak]

Yes, it depends where you are out, or what’s the history. The Melkites, for instance have excellent relations with the Orthodox, the UGCC, not so good.

Depends on which Orthodox Church you are referring to. We in the UGCC have excellent relations with the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Ecumenical Patriarchate; the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church, and the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Kyivan Patriarchate. The relations are not always so good with the Moscow Patriarchate; but neither are the relations good with the Orthodox churches I have mentioned and the Moscow Patriarchate (nor often between Constantinople and Moscow for that matter).
FDRLB

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Quite a few of the Latin rite under Rome don’t want them to exist either.

And…?

Can you offer a sampling of these “quite a few”?

And then what are we to draw from that?

Spread to the four corners with over 1B members, it isn’t difficult to gather a substantial minority of folks with any number of different personal opinions and predilections in the Latin Church.

0.33% of the same would be 3.33M… A little more than half the population of Denmark, and definately too big a group to fit in any stadium… “quite a few” but still a minority. With a minority opinion going against what the Church has established, promoted and allowed for.